RIM developing "Apple Killer" touchscreen BlackBerry?

The times has a verbose 2,000 word piece about the high stakes world of high-end cellphone manufacturers (no way!), specifically centered around RIM's post-iPhone trials and tribulations. Besides a bit of vague lip service paid to the 9000 series, they're claiming that two 3rd party developers -- no sources cited -- leaked that RIM has a skunkworks product dubbed "AK" (which stands for "Apple Killer"), and that apparently it'll be touchscreen. And then comes the tub-thumping money shot from co-CEO Mike Lazaridis: "I couldn't type on [the iPhone] and I still can't type on it, and a lot of my friends can't type on it. It's hard to type on a piece of glass." Right, until you guys decide to do one of your own -- these executive types are so transparent they might as well just be up front.

[Thanks to everyone who sent this in]

[Saad Rabia @ Apr 27th 2008 12:44PM]

Sigh.

[Flashpoint @ Apr 27th 2008 2:03PM]

I came off a Blackberry 7590 - Cingular into a 4GB iPhone I bought off EBAY for $319 (and unlocked with a $5 Jailbreak Ziphone).

I hate the fact that I can't use my Sim card to use the internet unless I'm on WiFi.

I hate the fact that I can barely type on the iphone's keypad, where the Blackberry's was the easiest keypad I've ever used. (even easier than Sidekick's)

I also hate the fact that cleaning the iphone is harder than cleaning a gun.

The only thing iPhone has over Blackberry (and most other phones), is its body design and its software GUI smoothness.

[CraigJ @ Apr 27th 2008 2:15PM]

Another day, another idiotic post by Flashpoint.

"I hate the fact that I can't use my Sim card to use the internet unless I'm on WiFi."

Well, no shit. Get a data plan.

"I hate the fact that I can barely type on the iphone's keypad, where the Blackberry's was the easiest keypad I've ever used. (even easier than Sidekick's)"

I know a lot of people with iPhones and none of them have issues typing. I don't. Maybe you are just uncoordinated?

"I also hate the fact that cleaning the iphone is harder than cleaning a gun."

I had a blackberry. The keyboard was a gunk collector. I just wipe the iPhone on my jeans/shorts/slacks and it's clean. It's way harder to clean my Glock 19 than it is to clean my iPhone, and cleaning a Glock is easier than cleaning most guns...

[Justin @ Apr 27th 2008 2:49PM]

I type twice as fast on my iPhone then I ever did on my Treo or Blackberry... You just have to do it more than once, and you have to let it use it's 90% effective auto correct to fix you mistakes... The only people that can't type on an iphone are those who prefer to talk $hit.

I never had any issue cleaning... Step 1 Wipe, Step 2 done...

and as craig said... get an account... wow...

[Alex @ Apr 27th 2008 5:37PM]

My first thought exactly. Why do things have to be 'killer'? Can't they live in harmony with iPhones and iPods?
Nobody has ever said that Steven Hawking is an 'Einstein Killer'.

[happy_penguin @ Apr 27th 2008 5:43PM]

Yeah, the hard to clean remark is pretty ridiculous but the iPhone "keyboard" isn't exactly easy for me to use. The thing is, I never had any other kind of advanced phone so I can't say if I'd like a Blackberry or Sidekick keyboard more or not. I still wouldn't call any of that a fail for the iPhone. The one thing iPhone lacks is 3G which I willingly put up with for all the other features, mainly that it is my iPod and my phone making one device where I used to carry two. For me, that's pretty damn cool.

[Nick M. @ Apr 27th 2008 6:43PM]

Now that Apple is actively going after business users maybe Blackberry should first look into investing some money into keeping their network up. What good is having a fancy touchscreen Apple Killer phone if your users wont be able to get service?

@Flashpoint
The whole Wifi only thing has thrown me for a loop. Im confused... You have an iPhone but didnt get the iPhone plan that has unlimited data usage. It's kinda like getting blackberry plan when you have a blackberry? Complaining that you didn't get the proper service plan isn't a downfall of the product.

For me the Sidekick is still the easiest physical QWERTY keyboard to type on. Blackberrys, Blackjack, Q, Palms...they all have these little tiny buttons all crunched together and I end up hitting multiple keys when trying to type fast.

[PDA @ Apr 28th 2008 7:02PM]

HP iPAQ H5555 + Linux = "goodbye apple"
The only PDA I'll ever use.
phone shmone.

[Ellianth @ Apr 27th 2008 12:45PM]

"'I couldn't type on [the iPhone] and I still can't type on it, and a lot of my friends can't type on it. It's hard to type on a piece of glass.' Right, until you guys decide to do one of your own -- these executive types are so transparent they might as well just be up front."

Because it can't possibly have a keyboard AND a touch screen...

[Tim @ Apr 27th 2008 12:55PM]

1. Most of the HTC lineup, and every treo available, have touch screens.

2. It would seem the RIM execs are adverse to typing on glass. If they develope an "apple killer" with a traditional qwerty keyboard, is it going to be better than a LG Voyager, or any of the other self-proclaimed iPhone killers?

3. --no sources cited-- are the most important words in this article, for now.

[Tim @ Apr 27th 2008 1:00PM]

That was in SUPPORT of you, ellianth.

We need more information. This article could be printed in respect to any other handset manufacturer, as all are trying to compete with eachother.

[packetsniffer @ Apr 27th 2008 2:37PM]

I posted this on Engadget Mobile, but it relates to your comment, so I'll post it here as well:

"And then comes the tub-thumping money shot from co-CEO Mike Lazaridis: 'I couldn't type on [the iPhone] and I still can't type on it, and a lot of my friends can't type on it. It's hard to type on a piece of glass.' Right, until you guys decide to do one of your own -- these executive types are so transparent they might as well just be up front."

Instead of taking them out of context for some sensationalized bashing, let's see what the real article says:

"Mr. Lazaridis thinks that e-mail-dependent BlackBerry owners demand the reliability and tactile feedback of a keyboard. But, despite his critique of the iPhone, he does not dismiss the possibility that R.I.M. may itself one day sell a touch-screen phone, aimed specifically at consumers without the e-mail demands of BlackBerry’s core users."

So who's really being transparent here? Sorry guys, but I've got to call it like it see it.

[axemt @ Apr 27th 2008 5:46PM]

@ packetsniffer

Well said. In order for these blog sites to get page hits they have to keep their posts and opinions as catty and confrontational as possible. After all, if they don't tap the usual suspects for flame wars they don't get hits.

[Tim @ Apr 27th 2008 12:46PM]

He takes a whiskey drink, he takes a vodka drink.

[Justin @ Apr 27th 2008 12:57PM]

He takes a lager drink, he drinks a cider drink.

[Chino B @ Apr 27th 2008 1:19PM]

I take a sword and kill you both

[Skorpius @ Apr 27th 2008 1:29PM]

He sings the songs to remind him of the good times, he sings the songs to remind him of the better times.

[Derek @ Apr 27th 2008 1:43PM]

It was the best of times, it was the blurst of times.

[Rudiger @ Apr 27th 2008 2:05PM]

...and when I have to pee, I use the kitchen sink!

Also, blackberries taste better than apples.

[Tyler Willis @ Apr 27th 2008 2:11PM]

Am I the only one who finds it difficult to type on cell phone QWERTY keyboards? Maybe its my big thumbs. I really prefer the touchscreen keyboards. Of course they all beat T9 on a keypad.

I wouldn't want to type anything longer than this post on any of them.

[Abuzar @ Apr 27th 2008 12:47PM]

Hey engadget, ever heard of HTC? Yeah they have touchscreens AND real keyboards. If it's a killer that means it's BETTER than the product it's trying to kill. What better way than to include a real keyboard in addition to the touchscreen.

[Derek @ Apr 27th 2008 1:46PM]

Windows Mobile's media capability is far cry from Apple's, in terms of both speed and ease.

[Samphex @ Apr 27th 2008 4:00PM]

What? Last time I checked there was a product by PALM called the treo(or centro). Last time I checked it had a touch screen and a keyboard.

[Abuzar @ Apr 27th 2008 5:50PM]

Are you paying attention to what I said? Did I discuss Windows Mobile or it's media capabilities?

Also I was just providing an Example. Yes we all know Palms have keyboards and Touchscreens. HTC was just the first thing that came to mind.

[PenisBoy @ Apr 27th 2008 12:49PM]

The ironic thing about this strategy is that I've always thought that a big part of the appeal of Blackberry products was in fact, the keyboard. I have an iphone and my girlfriend has a Blackberry Curve, and I really do like the Curve. It's probably one of the best smartphones on the market along with the iphone. The keyboard, despite being small, is really quite usable and the UI is very fast. I think it will be difficult for RIM to create a touchscreen Blackberry that isn't seen as an inferior iphone ripoff. Unless they do some serious work and make the touchscreen keyboard haptic with some very good word guessing tech.

[Phoenix @ Apr 27th 2008 4:45PM]

Dude.

the iPhone isn't a smartphone (for now). blackberries yes. But until 2.0 and some good apps it's not a real smartphone.

[PenisBoy @ Apr 27th 2008 6:07PM]

Actually "dude", right from Wikipedia:

"A smartphone is a mobile phone offering advanced capabilities beyond a typical mobile phone, often with PC-like functionality. There is no industry standard definition of a smartphone.[1][2] For some, a smartphone is a phone that runs complete operating system software providing a standardized interface and platform for application developers.[3][4] For others, a smartphone is simply a phone with advanced features"

So, even though there, is no standard definition, let's look here and see if the iphone does it:

- "Advanced capabilities beyond a typical mobile phone"? Check.

- "is a phone that runs complete operating system software providing a standardized interface and platform for application developers"? Check. See iphone SDK, runs OS X.

Sorry man, the iphone is CLEARLY a smartphone. It has a full-featured web browser, a full blown OS with a very nice SDK and very advanced video and music playback features. By any definition on Wikipedia and by logic alone, the iphone is a smartphone.

[Stranger @ Apr 28th 2008 5:07AM]

PenisBoy, you do know that the wikipedia-entry was rewritten once it was known that the iphone lacked support for third-party apps?

Let's face it, for the last 5-6 years the common idea of a smartphone is one that support third-party applications. And this is not me talking out my ass, instead have a look at old magazines focused on cellphones and PDA's. They all use "smartphone" in that context.

[Phoenix @ Apr 28th 2008 2:57PM]

I'd call it a media-centric featurephone. Yes it's a good device. yes it has potential. but it's been overhyped, and it's MOSTLY relying on old technology.

But I guess it's just your personal opinion.

Oh, and I said things might change when the SDK apps become usable on all iPhones. So don't use the SDK to attack me

[CUBSWILLWIN @ Apr 27th 2008 12:50PM]

I guess this sounds nice, but what happened to the nuviphone? Haven't seen that for ages.

[john @ Apr 27th 2008 12:51PM]

Touchscreen doesn't have to mean sans-keyboard.

For example, my Nokia N810 has a touchscreen. And a keyboard.

In fact, I think the iPhone would be amazingly better if it DID have a slideout keyboard. Still not perfect, but better. Maybe that's the kind of thing that RIM has planned -- a blackberry like the one pictured, but with a touchscreen and touchscreen UI ... or a full-faced touchscreen blackberry with a slide-out keyboard.

Of course, what I want most is: a phone with a full-faced (more than 4") touchscreen with finger-friendly UI, a physical qwerty keyboard (slide-out, clamshell, whatever), GSM and 3G that is Euro/AT&T/T-Mo-USA friendly ... but I'd settle for CDMA with EVDO revA if I can get it on Sprint and not Verizon, Wifi (with or without UMA), and can tether other devices via bluetooth DUN ... or via wifi. And runs Android, Maemo, or Ubuntu Mobile ... or at least a non-Windows-Mobile OS that has a real web browser, an ssh client, and hopefully a vnc client.

If blackberry provides that, I'll buy it :-) But so far they're a few pieces short in that equation (and the iPhone is several pieces short).

[Jason @ Apr 28th 2008 4:38PM]

A slide-out keyboard would add considerable thickness to the phone, and the svelte figure of the iPhone is part of what makes it so appealing (to me at least). And the overall simplicity of the design is part of what makes the iPhone so great too, and a slider would go against that.

Really though, if you use an iPhone as your primary phone, you get used to its touchboard pretty quickly and it becomes pretty quick-n-easy to use.

[wesg @ Apr 27th 2008 12:53PM]

To Ryan and the others,
what happened to the list on the right side of the page that tracked most-commented stories? That was nice to see what's popular.

[Tim @ Apr 27th 2008 12:56PM]

That reply was in SUPPORT of Ellianth, btw.

[Jesse S @ Apr 27th 2008 1:06PM]

Why would they need an iPhone killer? Don't they sell more phones than Apple?

[Ghen @ Apr 28th 2008 9:34AM]

the iPhone is ready to integrate into the business market with exchange email. RIM is trying to cover their ass(ets) as soon as possible because a blackberry only does one thing better than everyone else: email.

[Jesse S @ Apr 27th 2008 1:07PM]

Either way, why would an iPhone user want a BB? It's not like they do any work on their phone, or need email.

[John @ Apr 27th 2008 2:15PM]

It's probably because Blackberry users are older, in their late 20s-50s, whereas the iPhone caters more toward the 18-35 region. If iPhone users start to acquire brand loyalty in addition to better business applications, Blackberry might have a problem on its hands 10-15 years down the road when current iPhone users become the target market for Blackberry.

Regardless of how well Blackberry is doing, it would be foolish for Blackberry, or any company (ahem, Palm) to sit back and watch technology progress without analyzing the competition and continue with R&D, especially given the relatively short product life cycle of cell phones and smart phones.

[John @ Apr 27th 2008 2:15PM]

Hah, that was meant for your first comment. Oh well.

[Jesse S @ Apr 27th 2008 2:22PM]

If anything, the iPhone is a step back in technology.

[John @ Apr 27th 2008 6:03PM]

Depends on your definition of technology. If you think the latest technology is MMS, voice dialing, and 3G, then you're right in saying that the iPhone is a step back in technology. However, I propose that technology in the iPhone isn't just about technical features, but about how the features it does have work. There's no denying that the iPhone is a piece of cake to use. All of its features are clearly organized and readily available, and the menus themselves have been optimized for touch screen used. Even the first touch screen Palm interfaces were essentially mouse-based interfaces with the addition of stylus functionality, nowhere near as sophisticated as the multi-touch UI.

No matter how much people argue, I think there's something to be said about sacrificing features for usability. Maybe Apple sacrificed too much this time around, but what good is a phone's technical ability if the interface is a hassle to use? Look at how successful the Wii is! It's obvious that people of all ages were completely willing to sacrifice graphics for intuitive movement. Grandpa doesn't care about how many polygons Master Chief is packing, nor does he want to take an hour learning how to use every button on the X-Box controller! He wants to pick up the game and play, and I'm positive that's part of the Wii's success.

[directive0 @ Apr 27th 2008 6:33PM]

Fail troll is fail.

[Jason @ Apr 28th 2008 4:31PM]

I use my iPhone for email on a daily basis. I do think I would prefer a tactile keyboard (this is my first non T9 phone) but I'll gladly use the iPhone's touchboard in exchange for the enormous screen.

A slide-out keypad would be nice, but that would add quite a bit to the thickness of the phone, and the thinness of the iPhone was a major 'pro' in my decision since I prefer to carry my phone in my pocket vs on my belt. I was originally going to get a T-Mo Dash until the price drop on the iPhone, which put it at the same as I was going to spend on the Dash and a new iPod.

[RA @ Apr 27th 2008 1:12PM]

They are hard to type on

[Richard Lai @ Apr 27th 2008 1:15PM]

*drops jaw* So will RIM have a music and video download service too? Apart from hardware they will also need these extras to fully compete with the iPhone.

BTW typing on the iPhone is not too much of a problem for me. Maybe it's easier for East-Asian hands. :D

[the_fozz @ Apr 27th 2008 1:50PM]

nope, I have large hands and I have no problems typing. If anyone does have problems typing, turn the phone sideways, instant big keyboard!

[Richard Lai @ Apr 27th 2008 1:53PM]

the_fozz: that does help a lot, but the annoying thing is a lot of the times the URL bar in Safari gets in the way.

[Richard Lai @ Apr 27th 2008 1:53PM]

Also, that doesn't work for texting.

[bob cobb @ Apr 27th 2008 1:18PM]

I already said this on giz, but it wont be a killer of any phone unless I can avoid paying the $20 a month for worthless BB services that I get for free with my WM phone. It nearly doubles the cost of my sprint sero plan.

[James Cameron @ Apr 27th 2008 1:18PM]

Maybe it's touchscreen with a qwerty keyboard? I'm not surprised how easily engadget get so easily upset when someone make a negative point about the iphone. I don't see them getting all upset when Intel and Nvidia calling each others out.