NBC admits "inadvertent" broadcast flag use, still doesn't explain why it actually worked

Just an update on the broadcast flag controversy: NBC has copped to an "inadvertent mistake" in flagging the broadcast of American Gladiators as content prohibited from recording, while Microsoft stated it is only following the FCC's rules, and "fully adheres to flags used by broadcasters". This conveniently ignores the fact that there is no legal requirement for Windows Vista Media Center to recognize the broadcast flag and disable recording, but it does. Errant metadata can and does happen, but for such a "feature" to be buried within one's software unknowingly is troubling. Expect to hear more from the EFF and others questioning why Media Center unnecessarily turns parts of itself off at a broadcaster's command, and rightly so. What's most disturbing, and likely to go sadly without protest is that someone out there is actually watching, and trying to record for later, American Gladiators. The more you know indeed.

[Via Techdirt]

[teslasnp @ May 20th 2008 11:30AM]

wasn't that image from G.I. Joe? knowing being part of the battle...

[crho85 @ May 20th 2008 11:50AM]

your thinking of this: http://www.myteespot.com/images/thumbs/t_5874_01.jpg

This image is the boring psa's by NBC stars. You should check out the parody of the GI JOE PSA

[BananaBoat @ May 20th 2008 12:08PM]

Would this have stopped an HD-Tivo, or an HD-DVR from Dish Network?

I'm not an expert on flags, but I can say that the day they start using them en masse, is the day that someone figures out a way around it (if they haven't already).

[bob @ May 20th 2008 11:31AM]

oh, i wish i used a drm full os

[sinai @ May 20th 2008 12:04PM]

it's called OSX. you know, "you may only use this software on OUR hardware, or we send lawyers"

[Arsenal @ May 20th 2008 1:02PM]

I think sinai misunderstands the difference between software and media

[sinai @ May 20th 2008 2:37PM]

except i don't

[Michael Sterling @ May 20th 2008 11:36AM]

Hey, I'm one of those people who records it for later!

BTW, I don't know if my TiVo HD just decided to delete it very quickly or blocked it from recording, but I never saw a recording of AG on my box from Friday night. Hmmm....

[Hooterman @ May 20th 2008 11:58AM]

I think I'm the other person that records it every week to watch later.

We win!

[0megapart!cle @ May 20th 2008 12:40PM]

You lose!

You support the cancer on our society that reality shows are. You support the trash that broadcasters are trying to push on us and call it entertainment.

You lose in every way possible.

[Hooterman @ May 20th 2008 1:12PM]

I consider AG a game show. Why is it a reality show? Because it has real people?

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861700802/reality_show.html

By that definition it is not a reality show.

[danny @ May 20th 2008 3:36PM]

Sorry to interrupt the bitching, but it's time to take a moment to reminisce... Ah, Encarta. That last time I used you was in 1997.

Continue, ladies.

[DoctaDJones @ May 20th 2008 4:48PM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encarta
Wow you're right. According to Wikipedia, Encarta does still exist.

And if reality shows are a cancer on our society, then American Gladiators is .... uh.... what cures cancer?

[Todd @ May 20th 2008 11:37AM]

Love it when huge global corporations, who track everything to the micro, do the "Who me?" routine. No explanation huh? Don't know why it happened, just an innocent mistake? But if some college kid makes a Torrent out of an episode of The Office you know where he is within three meters? And have a subpoena delivered to his door step within the hour? I see.

NBC exec who decided it would be a good idea to DRM over the air broadcasts should consider himself on the "egg list".

http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/19/steve-ballmer-dodges-eggs-at-hungarian-university/

[bob e @ May 20th 2008 11:38AM]

Why are people concerned about this?

If the broadcaster wants to disable recording they should be able to so. They own the content after all.

[sinai @ May 20th 2008 11:39AM]

except it was made illegal to do so?

[derspiess42 @ May 20th 2008 12:01PM]

Ever heard of "Fair Use", bob e? I know it's been trampled half to death by the DMCA, but it still applies.

[A-Deca @ May 20th 2008 11:51AM]

I don't understand the veiled criticism at Microsoft.

Heck, for once they are actually FOLLOWING an existing standard instead of creating their own version/flavour/interpretation of one!

The issue is why there are such flags in the first place, not the fact that Microsoft enforces them if they are used.

[Kris @ May 20th 2008 11:59AM]

No the issue is it's not a legal requirement to block the recording of such broadcasts but they're doing it anyway.

I'm angry that there is a way for Microsoft or any broadcaster to disable my software like this. That's total bullshit.

At times like this I wish I wasn't a .Net developer so I could go open-source or OS X (and I used to tell everyone I really liked Vista more than the "other guys").

[sinai @ May 20th 2008 12:02PM]

now while i agree this was wrong on all accounts:

ffs, kris, it was ONE EPISODE OF AMERICAN GLADIATORS.

not like it was anything important like Heroes.

[Kris @ May 20th 2008 12:13PM]

@sinai, Actually if was a couple of episodes of American Gladiators as well as another show (can't remember it off hand). Though, you seem to be excusing this just because it "only happened once". That's not a good enough excuse as it shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Jagster @ May 20th 2008 11:52AM]

Engadget rides Microsoft’s ass about anything, even if they are just an innocent bystander (They are then at fault for standing in the *wrong* place). Microsoft implemented a feature that behaves exactly as it is supposed to. The flag still exists and it still has the same purpose, whether or not the broadcaster is supposed to use it is a separate matter altogether. I see no fault in the software if it is working properly. Since Media Center is used for more than just DVR functionality, it has support a whole range of flag bits for various media, including, but not limited to, television broadcasts.

I believe Tivo also was affected by this NBC error, and I’m guessing there were other DVR’s affected as well.

[fieldcar @ May 20th 2008 1:16PM]

At least it isn't digg. Blindingly ignorant mac addicts. I used macs, and enjoyed it, but would never actually pay for one.

[Jeff @ May 20th 2008 12:29PM]

The issue is Microsoft is under no obligation to enforce these flags, whether the networks want them to or not. Therefore, what is it telling you about whose side MS is on here? Hint: it's not the consumers'.

We're not talking about people pirating TV shows. We're talking about people recording shows to watch later. There's nothing illegal about that or the entire cable TV industry would be in jail right now - they all offer DVR's. Yet MS has demonstrated in no uncertain terms that they're perfectly willing to bend over to whatever ridiculous demands the networks ask them for, to the detriment of the customers that are actually paying to use their software.

It's kind of ridiculous that I even need to explain this. You should be standing up for your own rights as a consumer. Otherwise, companies like MS *will* take them away from you, and that's exactly what's happening here.

[Sean @ May 20th 2008 2:28PM]

@Jeff

Being in the software industry, I suspect Microsoft is less sinister that eveyone is making them out to be....

When they coded this, I suspect they anticipated this rule going into effect and was actually going to be law. (i.e. they coded a feature that was never used but they coded at a time when it was looking like it was going to be. Years pass and the feature is never used.)

Well, It costs money to put a feature in and it costs money to take a feature out. So Microsoft never bothered to take this feature out becasue it costs money to do so and since no one is using it why bother to spend the money. It was coded and shipped end of story. I'm sure there is lots of legacy code like this in every system.
When a broadcaster inadvertanly flipped the switch the feature was activated and worked as coded.
I suspect when learning of this, Microsoft then went back to it's notes and design history and said "aha, this is law so we were required to do so".
"What, you mean it's not required? oh crap."

I doubt if there is any conspiracy, since other systems had this problem too.
People just need to chill.

[Joe Anstine @ May 21st 2008 1:32AM]

they deserve to have their ass ridden about this issue. It is absurd that the software that is not required anymore is still there. It allows "accidents" to happen that are then played off as such and are misconstrued as mistakes when they really were not.

[Scott @ May 20th 2008 11:55AM]

Does this explain it:

"Microsoft has acknowledged that Windows Media Centers will block users from recording TV shows at the request of a broadcaster."

...from http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9946780-7.html?tag=nefd.pop

[Josh Warner @ May 20th 2008 12:34PM]

Explain, yes. Justify, no.

[John @ May 20th 2008 12:52PM]

it was once something they were supposed to implement. Then, since the broadcasters were supposed to cut it out, why go through the trouble of removing it? I'm sure we can think of many, many actual bugs we'd prefer MS to work on first

[BARYE @ May 20th 2008 11:55AM]

a year ago -- during the month leading up to and after the end of HBO's Sopranos, whenever MSNBC's Keith Oberman ran ANY clip of the Sopranos, my XP Media Center halted recording.

This happened on at least 10 separate occasions

[Froggy @ May 20th 2008 12:06PM]

well, we'll see exactly what MS's possition will be when someone writes a work-around for that part of the OS. I expect it to hit sourceforge within the next few months.

[JibiJibi @ May 20th 2008 12:08PM]

Why would anyone record American Gladiators?
Why?
But Why? Really why would you?

[Rob @ May 20th 2008 12:08PM]

There goes my plan to get me a TiVo HD. I guess I'd have to stick to my DVD recorder. Oh well.

[Christopher P. TOdd @ May 20th 2008 12:39PM]

I think this only happened with the MS product in question. I don't remember seeing any reports of this happening to any TiVo boxes. I could be wrong though.

[John Stracke @ May 20th 2008 12:09PM]

I can sort of see MS's point here, actually. They have to consider the possibility that the broadcast flag may someday be legalized; if that happens, they don't want their software to be noncompliant (it'd be bad for their various negotations with the media companies). So they support it in the software, and if a broadcaster turns it on illegally, that's their problem.

[Matthew @ May 20th 2008 1:50PM]

They can disable the feature and leave it in, in case it ever becomes required that software obeys the flags. Never heard of commenting in code?

[ChrisM @ May 20th 2008 12:12PM]

Wolf says "I eat broadcast flags for dinner".

[Ed @ May 20th 2008 12:13PM]

Why, after recording it, would you then choose to watch it? What a weird world!

[Adam Sills @ May 20th 2008 12:16PM]

As much as I hate to admit to it, I recorded AG. I loved AG as a kid; the new one is utter garbage but I'm recording it for nostalgia's sake.

Anyway, TiVo Series 3, Dallas, Time Warner, it recorded perfectly and I watched a few minutes of it last Monday then deleted it.

So either TiVo wasn't affected or my local area wasn't affected.

[rp @ May 20th 2008 12:40PM]

This is a test of the emergency broadcast flag system. This is only a test...

[David @ May 20th 2008 12:44PM]

Small companies can take risks. Large companies that have a lot to lose in legal battles tend to take the safe route and implement products compliant with both standards or requirements that are or might soon be imposed legally. In this case, the FCC specified rules that MS followed out of prudence since the chance that there will continue to be legal churn on this topic are high. Further, this bit was probably implemented a while ago and forgotten about since the court decision invalidating the FCC's authority on the subject.

[oliverhart77 @ May 20th 2008 12:48PM]

I wonder if this is going to continue happening with other shows. Engadget should do a poll and ask everyone if theyre experiencing any other flag problems when trying to record...

[MitchSchaft @ May 20th 2008 1:12PM]

This one is microsoft's, and was a couple years ago, fault. There is no need for them to add this to their software! They should've ditched it back with MCE2005. This is not the first time this has been an issue.

[Marty @ May 20th 2008 1:17PM]

The key phrase is *Windows VISTA Media Center* that recognizes the flag and won't record.

With XP, I got no problems. I'll attempt to record AG for craps and giggles (or perhaps vomit and tears) and see if there's an issues. But I'm about 98% sure this is a Vista Media Center problem.

I actualy noticed that if I hover over a recored TV file and it gives me the description of the show, it actually has an entry for "Copy Protected?" and some TV shows came up as "YES".

[Backwards People @ May 20th 2008 1:31PM]

Microsoft does not support *any* of the Windows XP Media Center Editions. They are all supported by the manufacturer who built the MCE-spec PC, such as HP.

Is there a Vista Media Center Edition? No. There is "the ultimate" but I use my PC for work, I don't have time for the UAC-noob-user game that Microsoft is playing.

Microsoft used to be great... but recently it's been failure after failure after marginal success. I like to hear people defend them, because it helps ID that person as 'criminally insane'. There's no reason to defend a company, they don't have feelings.

XD

[Jason Smith @ May 21st 2008 9:12AM]

Some TV shows under Windows MCE (XP) are copy-protected when they're recoded they are keyed to the PC that you recorded them with. This is also done based on a broadcaster flag.

I wouldn't assume the no-record option is only in Vista - I seem to recall hearing about problems like this in the past. I know it's come up with TiVo before as well.

[John McDole @ May 20th 2008 1:38PM]

I don't care what anybody says, my roommate and I are huge fans of the show :)

[jtc970 @ May 20th 2008 1:58PM]

I've had problems in the past trying to record some poker events.
Not sure if the law only applies to broadcast or also to cable channels, just thought I'd through that in.

I also had trouble recording some On Demand stuff over QAM, but I guess that would be a legitimate use for the flag?

[johnzilla @ May 20th 2008 2:09PM]

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

The true cost of Windows Vista:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

[Alex McKenzie @ May 20th 2008 2:26PM]

funny, yesterday when I tried to record family guy on tbs I got the same message for the first time.