Japanese scientist claims breakthrough with cold fusion experiment
By Donald Melanson 
posted May 26th 2008 12:10PM
posted May 26th 2008 12:10PM
While recent attempts to create a perpetual motion machine somehow, inexplicably didn't pan out, a physics professor from Osaka University now claims to have made a scientific breakthrough of another sort, with him now touting nothing less than a supposedly successful demonstration of cold fusion. That was apparently done by forcing deuterium gas under pressure into an evacuated cell containing a sample of palladium dispersed in zirconium oxide, which caused the deuterium to be absorbed by the palladium sample, resulting in a denser, or "pynco" deuterium, with deuterium nuclei that are close enough together to fuse. That process also supposedly resulted in a rise in temperature to about 70° Celsius, and a temperature in the center of the cell that remained "significantly warmer" than the cell wall for 50 hours after the test. Of course, there doesn't appear to be any other scientists ready to back up the experiment just yet, so you'll have to rely on your own armchair science expertise to get your hopes up or down accordingly on this one.
[Via Slashdot, thanks One]
[Via Slashdot, thanks One]
first!
Yeah, ok I think while reading that I just got a head cold..fusion.
Absolutely no idea what that means, but cool!
Something to do with effective energy production?
If "first!" wasn't going to get you low ranked, the lame comment following it will.
D-D-DDDDOUBLE FAIL!
Your procreation privilages have been revoked.
"...forcing deuterium gas under pressure into an evacuated cell containing a sample of palladium dispersed in zirconium oxide, which caused the deuterium to be absorbed by the palladium sample, resulting in a denser, or "pynco" deuterium, with deuterium nuclei that are close enough together to fuse..."
Now why did'nt I think of that!
@uknigel- with "jokes" like that I can't imagine him ever using them.
what?? your only two brain cells fused together??
And gas is reaching $4/gallon again... why?
Scandinavia is 8.35USD a gallon. So 4 is sounding cheap now huh? Norway makes it's own oil and it still cost that much. Welcome to the big scamboozle.
Had Jimmy Carter had his way - rather than the oil companies, we'd have taken numerous steps towards energy independence.
HYBRID VEHICLES won't help the world.
FUSION POWER is going to be what powers the future.
The oil companies have done everything in their power to prove that its impossible to create Fusion power because of numerous technological shortcomings but all that bullshit means nothing if we are willing to research and fund it.
Natural Fusion requires temperatures of 10 Million Kelvin to have Helium and Hydrogen fuse. So far, the SUN is the only place this happens. BUT, we can use strong electromagnets to help achieve the same results - or, research cold fusion for a safer, easier, less expensive solution.
I for one am waiting for a Fusion powered HEMI -C from Chrysler.
Actually, flashpoint, the Sun isn't the only star in the universe. There are a bunch of others where fusion also takes place. Also, fusion occurs in thermonuclear weapons. Just keeping it factually correct.
In the UK we pay over $10 per gallon. Yay for tax!
@Lance
Idiot. Their gas is that high due to taxes and fees. Talk much about things you know nothing about?
Oil companies get subsidized by the government no matter how much they charge the consumer. They don't pay taxes on any profit and the tax you pay at the pump goes right back to them, instead of to roads. Roads get built on credit 10 years after they are needed. Now if cold fusion does pan out and gets put into vehicles, you'll have a new tax to pay out of your income to pay for roads with little to none of the funny business in corporate welfare.
All you people whining about gas prices. Ridiculous. Canada holds the world's second-largest oil reserves (Saudi Arabia is first) and gas prices are higher here than in the US, which produces MUCH less. We're exporting it to the US and giving you lucky bastards a better deal than our own citizens. Gas is hovering around $1.26 per Litre -- figure it out. That's $4.77 per gallon. Get over yourselves. I paid almost $80 to fill up the tank of my ugly minivan. Insane.
@t3_slider
wow. $1.26 per litre.
UK = £1.16 per litre($2.32). and Diesel = £1.28 per litre (£2.52)
so... I wonder what will happen to the US economy once you hit that price?!
@za
I thought nuclear weapons relied on "Fission" or spliting of the atoms and chain reactions, unlike the topic here, "Fusion" which is where nuclei combine to form more massive nuclei with the simultaneous release of energy
@avdesign4
no, actually thermonuclear means getting energy/heat out of the atoms (or their core). What you mean is "atomic bomb". Ever heard of the "H-Bomb"? The "tsar bomba", an H-Bomb, had aproximately 3000x the power of the bomb over Hiroshima during WW2.
Connecting to the topic, if they are able to generate and control that amount of power efficiently, it would mean almost unlimited power. I just hope this is not just a joke...
@avdesign4
You are somewhat correct. The first atomic weapons used were fission-based (Hiroshima & Nagasaki), but then we started working on the hydrogen bomb, which was fusion-based and something like 100x more powerful. Fusion is much harder to control, which is why we only have fission power plants (besides experimental fusion plants, but they have yet to have a positive energy yield).
An interesting development is Internal Confinement Fusion(ICF), which uses powerful lasers to initiate a fusion reaction. A power plant based on ICF called HiPER is slated to begin construction between 2010 - 2013, and if successful, will produce more energy than it takes to initiate the reaction. For more info, see "http://www.hiperlaser.org/".
ill have 4 of those
You say cold fusion, All I hear is bull sh*t.
I don't think this is bullshit, the article says that quite a few physicists were at the demonstration
@ Ron Smith: and people like you is why cold fusion research can't get funding.
thats because a bull shit in your ear right before i said it
the entire article is posted on Physicsworld.com
Including a link that actually is of use...how rare. Then again, how many people would spam for physics?
Anyway, went to the page and saw this title, "Astronomers watch as star dies." First thing I thought: sadistic, much?
Regardless, thanks for the link.
I love fusion. Jazz-fusion, that is.
jazz-fusion leaves me cold.
Palladium/Platinum adsorbs large amounts Hydrogen/Deuterium at room temperature, a well known exothermic chemical reaction. Has nothing to do with cold fusion. Quantum mechanics rule out cold fusion, as the energy required to overcome the repulsive force of the fusion of nuclei can only occur at extremely high temperatures, i.e. supernova hot.
Fusion is indicated by the presence of Helium-4 found after the test completed. I can only assume they found enough to raise eyebrows.
Helium-4 is a drastically unfavored product of Deuterium fusion, Tritium would have been the primary product (99%) of fusion in the stated reaction. Also, if the fusion reaction occurred, neutrinos and gamma-rays would have been emitted. The article states that no radioactivity was detected. Fusion in the stated circumstances is impossible without radioactivity.
You seem to be quite the expert on something that no one know how to do. Is it just possible that you could not know all there is to know about something that is still an unknown procedure?
Except it is a well known reaction of palladium and nothing new or unknown at all ... just misinterpreted by a few researchers. I'm sure you can read about it on that Wikipedia website. The presence of helium can be explained by the simple fact that, if palladium adsorbs hydrogen, it can also adsorb helium prior to the test and be displaced upon the introduction of hydrogen. The paper doesn't seem to state how much helium was found, but I could have missed it.
Chemist would see the exotermic reaction there.. obviously, Japanese scientist however claims "fusion", ok, so where is your neutrons and other radiation resulting from fusion, huh?? I mean Japanese even named some building after that scientist, better hope he really has found something or Japanese science would hit new cold-crackpot-low here.
To bastardize a quote:
"Discussing whether or not this is fusion is about as interesting as discussing whether or not submarines swim"
Why does it matter whether or not this is actually FUSION? What matters is: does the energy output make it a viable power source?
If yes: good! figure out how to commercialize it!
If no: then it's of academic interest only if it really is fusion (because then it's just yet another form of non-practical fusion), or of anecdotal evidence if it's not really fusion (so we can tell more "cold fusion" jokes) ... either way, nothing to be either excited nor snarky about.
(the original quote is from Dykstra: "discussing whether or not computers can think is about as interesting as discussing whether or not submarines can swim" -- what (pragmatically/practically) matters is what class of problems can be solved by computers, not whether or not they're actually/literally "thinking" and conscious as they solve them)
Answer: No. Palladium is incredibly expensive, deuterium is very expensive to extract from seawater. Those are the two things you need to raise the temperature up to 70C, which is not useless, but you can't possibly do anything with that temperature to pay for the materials and processing.
It's clearly not fusion, but even if it was, it would be totally useless from a practical standpoint.
It happened in korea btw, that the government named things after a scientist (and gave him awards), who then turned out to be a fool with bogus results, it would not be the first time.
The problem is that they already took the exothermic properties of palladium into account and its producing 100 times as much heat as can created by normal hydrogen absorption reactions.
Call it a deuterium fuel cell if it makes you feel better the truth is this technology promises to be hundreds of times more efficient than the fuel cells used in the current generation of hydrogen powered electric cars.
Now, where can I get some deuterium?
Walmart. Aisle 9.
Why, at any Class-M planet, of course.
Just start sifting seawater and take out the heavier hydrogen molecules - I like to create a pile of em on the beach each and every time I go!
Next time I think I'll build a sand castle deuterium processing plant and use the spare time to hunt for clams.
Xepol,
Thanks for the yuk yuks! Made my morning. I think I have to go to the beach now.
Simon
http://www.artchemicals.com/Deuterium-Oxide-100-Atom-D-07mL-Spectum-Branded-P18356C578.aspx
That looks like two milkshake blenders immersed in a coffee percolator.
Mmm... milkshake...
I drink your milkshake.
For some reason that sounds soo wrong
My milkshakes. Let me show you them!
While the idea is kinda cool, what the heck use is cold fusion? Aside from making heavier elements, don't you kinda need it to be hot, to create steam and drive a generator?
Just me who has a problem with that, huh?
cold fusion is about getting more out than you put in (energy that is) , without melting the planet.
So cold simply means doing it without sun like temperatures.
It still creates heat - the article notes a 70 degree rise in temperature. It's just that the _initial_ temperature is relatively "cold," as opposed to the extraordinarily high temperatures long thought to be necessary for fusion to occur.
Anyway, I'll believe it when I see it.
You don't necessarily need to create steam. That's good. But that's only if you plan to use a steam turbine to extract the energy.
What you need is: a temperature differential. That's what Thermodynamics requires in order to extract work from the system. More differential == better. Steam == already know how to extract the work. But there are other mechanisms.
For example, you can use a nickle/tin wire (memory wire) wound the right way around some wheels, to extract kinetic energy from coffee ... so, steam not required -- just a temperature differential between the two ends of the wheels that the memory wire is wrapped around. I'm not saying that the memory wire system is the right way to extract energy from this situation, I'm just saying: steam turbines aren't the only mechanism available.
PRESSURIZED GAS are what lead to natural fusion.
You cry Bullshit cause you don't understand the science behind any of this.
And neither do you.
I wonder if the palladium could be substituted for something cheaper. That could be a potential hurdle for mass production, considering how the stuff costs around $450 an ounce.
I propose paperdium.
I hope it get commercialized soon. I want to put a cold fusion reactor in the city I'm building before I release the monster to wreck it all.
I'm sure our friends at Steorn will ridicule this. Orbo is the future!
http://www.steorn.com
(curiously silent for the past almost-year after hype-building headline-generating buzz-building globetrotting geek-visiting failed demo...)
cold fusion can't get funding, but we can build multi-billion dollar partical accelerators.
yes
Looks like a milkshake blender from UDF/Dairy Queen/(insert local franchise here).
The name, "cold fusion," also sounds like it could be some type of frozen delight.
Viral marketing, anyone?
Will it... er, fusion? That is the question.
Quickie Mart?
these are some of the funniest, but non scientific, comments regarding cold fusion
Seems like an interesting experiment, however this seems like a low power reaction. It will be interesting to see what power levels can be obtained with this process.
At this rate, it is not even enough power to light a light bulb.
- Roger
I thought Elisabeth Shue and Val Kilmer worked all of that out in 1997. Wasn't "The Saint" all about that?
More people have been killed in Ted Kenndy's car than in cold fusion accidents.
Yeah, but they sold the patents to the oil industry.
Does it have a touchscreen?
No, matter that has undergone fusion does not come with a touchscreen!
This is old news. I've been forcing gas for years, and it usually leads to significant warming and lingers for quite some time ... although 50 hours is very impressive.
... insert own joke about dooterium slugs.
No scientist would risk his reputation backing cold fusion "nonsense" as it would invoke a witch-burning from his colleagues.
You can't fuse atoms at low temperatures, but there's nothing that says the incredibly high temperatures are banned from being confined to a very small area.
Pyroelectric fusion is pretty close to being cold fusion, for example.
but not even remotely close to being useful as an energy source. Just like this "process".
UM...WHAT?
What does Adobe have to do with anything?
They make cold fusion.
I was being sarcastic...
Conflating this with those perpetual motion scams is uncalled for. This guy is an actual nuclear physicist . Not some weirdo playing with magnets.
THIS IS NOT BS THIS IS EXONERATION OF THE ORIGINAL WORK DONE IN THE USA. This could be wobderful news for the whole world. It is plauable actully more than that.
wobderful?
plauable?
actully?
fail...
can it play doom?
can you shut the hell up
It might eventually POWER a machine that plays doom...
The Apple version is better.
I've BFG'd some demons, cacodemons, barons of hells, and a whole host of other creatures, but I've never BFG'd a chicken...where the hell did I put that BFG?!?!?
Hmm.. a possible device that can A) solve the world's energy crisis, B) Get rid of fossil fuels used in power production, C) Cheapy
But the catch is that it circumvents billions and billions of dollars done in research of hydrogen power, hot fusion, and other alternative fuels. Yeah, i would say there is reason enough for people to fight it.
Yeah, that palladium is really cheap. So is deuterium. Pressurizing it? Cheap.
There is a tiny, minute possibility that you should shut the hell up until you have a vague idea what you're talking about. Please consider it.
He is right that if someone would invent something to make 'free' energy that person had better get some body guards and a fallout shelter and not expect it to be welcomed by everybody, so in a sense it's good for the researchers that that's not the case here.
Aside from this not being a fusion reaction, you all seem to hope that this device will work as a source of energy, but let us do some calculations here,
after first considering the article was published in an Italian Economics and Business Journal, and not the Journal of Nuclear Physics, Nature, or any other physics related international journal;
and disregarding the fact that the article states that no radioactivity was detected, which is an irrevocable consequence of fusion, the merging of nuclei;
as well as ignoring the fact that these "researchers" are actually employees of the Welding Research Institute at Osaka University, and not the Nuclear Physics department.
This research warmed a liter of water 25*C in about an hour. My hot water heater at my house warms 50 gallons of water 100*C in about 10 minutes. My car engine, running on 400 mL of gasoline per revolution, heats a 400 lb block of metal to 5000*C in 10 minutes. That is not enough energy to do anything significant.
One needn't any understanding of Nuclear Physics to realize a leap in logic is needed to authenticate the findings as anything but whimsical. If one applies an understanding of Nuclear Physics (see my posts on the first page of comments), then we can see the impossibility of their work being caused by fusion, and is actually a simple and well documented and well understood exothermic reaction involving Palladium and Hydrogen.
bah, welding? don't forget Faraday's theories of electromagnetism, such low academic standing only breed's fraud
the researchers mention they are aware of the chemical reaction, but maybe the energy output is more than expected from the mere chemical reaction?
newer technology always deliver lower initial yields (think LCD's and CPU's) your electric heater has over 30 yrs of engineering in it to deliver such efficiency
My problem with it is all the other hurdles needed to make cold fusion viable as an energy source. It's going to have to get hot enough to produce steam. While there are other methods to extract energy, turbines are the most tested and efficient way to accomplish it and they require steam. Secondly, the amount of energy extracted, after you subtract out all of the inefficiencies, must be higher than the energy required to produce and refine all of the materials necessary to keep the reaction going. The materials being used here are not cheap and compressing gas requires energy, etc.
We need to be building more nuclear reactors and transitioning to hydrogen as an energy source. These are technologies that work now that will reduce our oil dependence and improve the environment.
Your water heater BOILS 50 gallons of water in 10 minutes?!
What kind of freak water heater do you have?
Never mind that, his engine block melts every time he runs his car.
That sad part is that while his examples are pathetically off, his conclusion is right. There's not nearly enough energy being produced here to justify the expense of producing it.
Hi folks,
My what an entertaining bunch of messages. Sorry to break it up with a bit of sobriety, but I thought you might want to see our article about this low-energy nuclear reaction (not cold fusion) demonstration http://newenergytimes.com/news/2008/29img/Arata-Demo.htm .
If you're new to all of this, I encourage you to check out this page http://newenergytimes.com/Reports/Start.htm . If it doesn't answer all your questions, shoot me a PM and I'll do what I can to give you an answer.
Steven B. Krivit Editor, New Energy Times
How to ruin your web brand:
1) Link it in the comments of competing web pages
2) Link horrific non-science reports from welding colleges.
Yep, that's all it takes! Good Luck!
Well, people always say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all," but apparently, they left out the part about getting low ranked
freakin nerds!
I thought they did away with "cold fusion" in the 90's...
Guess people can get funding for anything, especially considering the majority of Physicists no longer consider it possible.