Toshiba remains stubborn, looks to DVD upscaling while brushing Blu-ray off
By Darren Murph 
posted June 17th 2008 3:27PM
posted June 17th 2008 3:27PM
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Read - Toshiba Europe CEO comments
posted June 17th 2008 3:27PM
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Toshiba is just trying to bring more value to DVD, keep it relevant in the brave new world of HD. They have every right to try to do that. Their HD-DVD players do a great job of up converting DVD and this new technology will only make it better. Higher bitrate DVD movies will certainly benefit the most from this technology. Certainly Blu-Ray will look better, and will most definitely sound better, and I don't think anyone here is saying it won't. But there are titles that will never be released in Blu-Ray format, personal home videos, etc. Besides if I already have the DVD, it's very hard for me to justify buying it AGAIN in Blu-Ray. Certain titles are the exception (LOTR, Star Wars, etc.).
Blu-Ray can counter with inexpensive BD players that upscale very well. It's not Sony's plan for at least 2-3 more years. It's almost like Toshiba is trying to divide up the DVD/BD media market and capture the low-end and mainstream markets, allowing Blu-Ray to be the high-end product.
I love HD and I own both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. If Toshiba truly delivers on the PQ front with this new technology and the price is right, I would definitely welcome another player in my home theater setup.
Whats the odds this, or a version of, will end up in the XBox 360?
The answer Gus is that there is ZERO chance of it appearing in a 360. Microsoft would not be as stupid to burden themselves with the cost of an additional chip just to upscale DVDs. Especially when the device has 3 dual threaded cores, and an upscaling chip already that could make a decent job of upscaling for themselves.
Maybe your right Dr.Xym, but you still need to get out more, you don't live in an Austrian cellar by any chance?
"Add resolution"? Really? That's interesting. So, either one of two things must be true:
(1) The new Toshiba DVD player has an "extra resolution" data stream for every single DVD in existence stored on itself, which it intelligently accesses when you put in the disc; or
(2) The new Toshiba DVD player connects to the internet to download a higher-quality version of the movie you're watching from some central server.
Really looking forward to hearing which of these it is.
No, it does what forensic labs do with film & video testing.
NASA do it too with star-field research.
You take all the little bits of different data found within 'x' number of the preceeding frames and 'x' number of the following frames compared to the actual frame being shown; you then add them all together (in real time) to create a higher degree of genuine & real additional detail than can be found in a single frame.
This new more detailed image is then upscaled to whatever higher resolution is required.
Its damned clever & pretty amazing that they can do it in a DVD player in real-time.
The fact that it works with everyone's existing DVD collection is killer.
Naturally the fanboy element want to pretend that it's just upscaling.
It doesn't matter what they say tho.
This tech is also going to be built in to HD TVs.
It's also gone beyond Toshiba already, Sharp have licenced it.
really? an ultimate dvd upscaling player? if that was possible or something even close to be made wouldn't toshiba do that first instead of coming out with HDDVD. For the moment i don't own either HDDVD or Bluray player, but i highly doubt that's possible...
Truth Teller didn't poision this thread yet? Did the mods do their job? If so, thanks, guys.^_^
Cue the howls of derisive laughter.
Your infantile spiteful little campaign is going nowhere. Tough luck.
Truth Teller, you should read that second sentence out loud into a mirror.
The technology may very well be awesome but there is merit to the people who talk about price being a factor.
With HD-DVD Toshiba showed that the mass market was not ready to drop even $130 on a high quality dvd upscaler with true HD content capability and more advanced features.
This makes me think that Toshiba will have to price these units below the $100 mark to be viable. They may be able sell less capable units for more money than HD-DVD but that seems unlikely. If they could do that they could have beaten BD in the market.
Getting below the $100 mark will be difficult if using a cell chip.
This is a cool technology and I'd love to see it in the market but I'm not sure this will be a successful business venture as Toshiba intends it.
if it is over $100 it is not worth buying.
Is Darren Murphy the worlds biggest BR fanboy on the planet or what!
Can you ever present a balanced article that doesn't support your beloved blu ray! In case you haven't noticed blu ray is not setting the world on fire!
Your continually bigoted, totally one eyed articles are a joke, have you ever heard of balanced journalism, what a disgrace, and now as usual, you'll delete this post because how dare anyone speak up against you!
This is not journalism, this is like a trip to bluray.com, how much are they paying you!
Way to vote yourself up kid.
And you would be the first jerk off I would vote lowest ranked, closely followed by Dr.Xym if I could manipulate the voting !!
And on cue, the usual fanatical BD haters are cheering their new knight in shining armor called SUC, who will slay the evil BD format forever.
Here's some TRUTH:
- If BD is "invisible to the "non-PS3 kiddies", SUC will be non-existent. As joe said above, if they couldn't give away actual HD capable players for $99, what makes you think J6P will be lining up to buy yet another DVD player? Mark my words, these players will NOT be marketed to the masses.
- Having these built into upcoming HDTV's has no bearing on the BD market in the least bit. All it means is that folks with these new SUC HDTV's should let their TV upconvert their SD content, and not their BD players. We have the same situation right now, if your current TV upconverts better than your player, you simply send your SD content in 480P to your set and let it do the rest.
- Folks buying these sets are likely to also be picking up a BD player along with it. Sales folks selling HDTV's are trained to pair the sale with a new BD player and will not care whether it has SUC or not.
- These sets won't be priced like VIZIOS or OLEVIAs to target the Walmart crowd, these sets will be marketed as feature-full higher end sets.
- This technology isn't being marketed as a competitor to BD, just as a new feature for players and TV's.
I totally welcome this technology for TV's, receivers and players. I just find the notion that this tech is somehow a BD killer, laughable. I love how convenient and hypocritical it is have said in countless posts that upconverting DVD players our right now are good enough for most folks and that they can't even see that much difference when compared to real HD, and yet now, all of the sudden they will be flocking to buy SUC players even though it's a middle ground at best between upconverting players, and real HD. It's utter insanity.
But keep pretending in your delusional heads that SUC DVD is real HD.
Ummm, I seem to recall 90,000 units being sold in one month @ $99, blu ray would cream there jeans if they could sell that many SA players in one month!
Wow, you mean when a player is massively marked down to firesale prices it finally sells?
Yes thats right Mr.Xym, and there in lies the major problem for blu ray, pricing, the masses just will not pay $300 + in large volume for a DVD player, maybe blu ray should take a leaf out Toshiba's book there, people will by in droves at $99 and you can spark some serious adoption and make the money later out of disc sales, but no, this is the BDA we are talking about here, greed first, second and third.
DEEZNUTZ
Wake up.
DVD is the Blu-ray killer.
Everyone that has movies having DVDs is the Blu-ray killer.
The mass-market not being composed of game console & extreme home cinema devotees is the Blu0ray killer.
Blu-ray prices are the Blu-ray killer.
Super Upconversion is merely an additional reason for people to dismiss the difference as not worth it.
BTW love the idea that you know how much this is going to cost.
Very amusing.
What are you going to be saying when this streets at slightly higher than Toshiba's top of the range DVD player (ie about $100 - $120) and Blu-ray is still well over $300?
Wow, and you spouting this same lame drivel over and over, is somehow making it come true.
Yaaawn...
Almost as pathetic as a so called technology company; toshiba saying that there's no difference between up-scalled DVD and real HD.
I won't be saying anything because it's NEVER going to happen. You are delusional if you think Toshiba is going to introduce this technology at < $200 for players, if you're lucky. How much are the best upscaling players right now that use the best upscaling chips? You seriously think they will be cheaper? You think there are no costs to this tech? You think Toshiba doesn't want to recover on thier R&D costs? You think Cell processors are free?
You have always made the most ridiculous FUD based claims about pricing and this is no different.
You are a laughable fool who has a lengthy track record of making ridiculous and baseless claims time and time again. Now you're a DVD cheerleader? Pathetic the depths you go to imagine BD's demise; never seen a person have such an emotional investment on how BD performs. I hope you find the help you so desperately need.
Sample price for the SpursEngine is currently ~$98. Even if it drops to $30-50 as yields get better I reckon at a bare minimum that implies any player will cost AT LEAST $150. And if they're trying to compete with the likes of Oppo players they'll have to slap in other high end features which could push the price north of $200. There is no way these things are going to even dent Blu Ray sales.
Xym , they would only have to sell about 3 of them to put a dent in BR stand alone sales, get your hand off it!
* quote
MI
Almost as pathetic as a so called technology company; toshiba saying that there's no difference between up-scalled DVD and real HD.
====================================================
No, what really is "pathetic" are the Blu-ray fanboys deliberately pretending that anyone ever said upscale was no different to high def.
The point is not that there is no difference, the point is that the price demanded by Blu-ray is simply not worth the benefit.
LMAO
Hilarious E, so continuing to point out Blu-ray's on-going problems & limitations is a spiteful campaign (to you) now is it?
Awwwww, nevermind, maybe you'd like it better at blu-ray.com where no-one is ever allowed to raise a critical voice or speak of any problems or issues that might upset the disciples in their devotional duties, huh?
Tough luck.
I took a leaf out of the 'Hydra' handbook.
Reap what you sow.
Nfinity says we will be buying this player by next year, lol. Sorry I am going with true high definition. I didn't spend 3,000 on a projector, another thousand on a screen to buy another upscaler player, I am going to be watching true high def. Truthteller and Nfinity-enjoy your upconverting and horribly lossy soundtracks.
Oh, and about the some 60% of dvd's that have sub-par or poor transfers, I suppose this machine can upscale those to perfection too...lol.
Mind you, I am not saying I won't take a look at it. But if they have made statements and are going to say it's just as good as blu-ray, then you would think the demonstration would be next to a blu-ray of the same title...I wonder why they didn't do that...any guesses guys?
The BIG problem here is as I said in my previous post, more than half of dvd releases were never good transfers in the first place, unless they were reissued as remastered special editions. What about those thousands of movies with poor or fair transfer quality...who wants to upscale them and what will those look like? probably much worse!
I've said it before and I will say it again ..
You can't make prime rib out of hamburger.
I was a huge hd-dvd supporter (still am...buying some as cheap as 4.99)... and I always liked toshiba as a company and thought they advanced technology (toslink etc...) But this move is making me lose respect for them.
They championed the future of dvd with hd-dvd and since they lost, they are being poor-sports saying that dvd is the best choice because of this new spurs-engine. I feel that this type of super-upscaling would be wonderful in new blu-ray players no? Imagine Toshiba releasing a top of the line profile 2.0 blu-ray player with this supposedly super-upscaler for dvd's. I would be first in line to buy one.
But now i feel they are taking the wrong route. This will only confuse the lay-consumer even more. Whats hd-dvd , upscaled dvd, super-upscaled dvd etc... Not to mention ths technology wont be cheap. Im thinking 199.99 and since i picked up a BH200 combo for about 329.99 recently it'd be a bad move. Espescially up here in Canada.
Toshiba, as a loyal supporter of hd-dvd and your products, i hope you understand that you lost, suck it up and support blu-ray, use this new technology in profile 2.0 players and regain the tech crowd.
The idea that Toshiba should not be interested in selling better DVD players is absurd.
The DVD market is massively larger than Blu-ray and what ever happens will continue to be so for years to come.
All this anger aimed at Toshiba, hilarious.
Where's the similar bitchy idiocy aimed at Oppo and their new better DVD player, hmmmm?
The truth is the Blu-ray fanmboys are gurning their eyes out cos they know players like this one simply reduce the gap between 'ordinary' DVD players and their beloved Blu-ray.
Even in the 480i/p (snicker) standard def USA people say the difference isn't worth it
(so quit trying to pretend the point is 'no difference').
Here in 576p standard def Europe the difference is even less.
The new Super Upconversion tech closes that gap even further.
The fanboys reckoning this is going to sell @ $200+ are delusional.
They will be at or around the $100 level, maybe even $75.
Blu-ray will still be between $300 - $400........and continue to be still stranded in a niche few but the game console fanboys have any interest in.
It is DELUSIONAL to think that some new 'amazing' upscaling technology that claims to "fill in the gaps" and "add resolution" to what is likely a poor DVD transfer, along with a lossy dolby digital track, is OK in comparison to blu-ray.
Toshiba is doing this out of pride and bitterness, and trying to convince the people stubborn enough to not adopt blu-ray that this is how they can experience "high definition". This is definitely making Toshiba's reputation worse than it already was. I used to be neutral/indifferent towards Tosh, until now.
See things the way they are, people. Read that sentence again, it has two meanings.
* quote
dj496
I used to be neutral/indifferent towards Tosh, until now.
=====================================================
Sure you did.
I'd love a look at your posts slamming the new Oppo.
Maybe you'll explain why anyone shouldn't be making inexpensive better upscaling DVD players whilst you're at it.
Maybe you'll be slamming Sony, Panasonic et al for continuing to sell upscaling DVD players too?
Yeah right.
The Blu-ray fans understand perfectly the danger this tech represents.
Almost no-one cares about audio beyond (vanilla) Dolby Digital or DTS.
Almost no-one cares to pay the premium Blu-ray demands compared to upscaled DVD or this new Super Upconversion.
No-one is saying it is exactly the same.
The point is that the Blu-ray price isn't worth the benefit.
(and they're saying that in the 480i/p standard def USA, nevermind in 576p Europe)
I bought Men In Black yesterday and I dont see how this technology cant make the DVD look better than the Bluray. Its an older video that gets nothing from the BR conversion. If and this is IF this works GREAT! I will not buy as many BRs of older movies. My tv only does 720p and 1080I and I sit about 10 feet from a 42 inch and 5 from a 44. I dont think BR makes that big a difference on the 42 but it does on the 44.
Now isnt the headline of this story alittle fanboyish in its own right.... "BOOO HOOOO support my format already booo hoo." Damn who cares if Toshiba doesnt everyone else does.
The critical difference between Toshiba and Oppo, Panasonic, etc is that only Toshiba is claming that the picture is as good (or close enough) as Blu-Ray.
Don't get me wrong, this type of tech will be neccessary as people won't replace all their DVDs with Blu-rays overnight and there is still going to be a lot of content presented in 480i even after the analog turn-off...it would be great to have this tech inside new TVs.
When this comes out, let's take a well-produced show such as Planet Earth and view it in DVD (with the Toshiba DVD player), a recording of the HD Theater presentation, and the Blu-Ray and let's see which one looks the best.
* quote
Jim Mallory
The critical difference between Toshiba and Oppo, Panasonic, etc is that only Toshiba is claming that the picture is as good (or close enough) as Blu-Ray.
=====================================================
Do you not get out much?
Maybe you are you blind?
....... or are you just hoping no-one notices this outright lie?
All the Blu-ray backing DVD makers have upscaling players out & they all describe them as 'HD' this and 'high def' that in their blurb (some even going as far as naming the DVD player an 'HD xyz').
Try & be a little consistent for a change, eh?
This is a clear example where the fanboys hatred of Toshiba is exposed & plain to see.
(tho amusingly the Blu-ray makers naming of their own upscaling players can only hurt Blu-ray itself)
Ok it is time for another Truth Teller/Nfinity smackdown. You guys predicted HD DVD would win and it didn't. You were dead wrong. Now you're getting all giddy because of another Toshiba scheme? Ok, we'll just have to call this one vaoprware until it produces and sells. Not only that, it has to make a dent in blu-ray, otherwise, this argument is moot.
I have said it before, this tech has a market, but you guys seem to think it will hurt blu-ray. I say it won't. I so far have had a better track record than you two so let's just call this a "wait and see" and stop all the speculation....
Here we go, out of all and any credible criticism JimC reaches for the last minute defection of Warner to 'prove' he has everything right & those who 'knew' Warner were signing for HD DVD (something they held in common with all the big HD DVD backers as they boarded their planes for CES 2008) are wrong about everything.
A laughable mangling of logic & a new low Jim. Well done.
LMAO.
Truth Teller, selective quoting and your version of events, the truth, doth not make.
Your claim: Warner was paid off last minute and that alone switched them from going RED to Blue.
Warner's official reason: Wanted to end format war the quickest and going blue was seen as the quickest way to accomplish that.
Them being paid off is irrelevant to the result. I said they would go blue exclusive to end the format war quickly. They did this. The format did end quickly thereafter.
Now, you can call that a lucky guess, so be it. I not only said they would go blue but the format war would end quickly and the rest is history.
You on the other hand said that Warner would go Red exclusive (for no sound reasoning) and that would end the format war. You were wrong.
Try to spin your complete failure however you want but at the end of the day, you were wrong and I was right, not only was I right about Warner going blue but about the war wrapping up quickly if they did so...
Plenty of the usual bluster but precious little fact JImC, as per.
You didn't actually know jack sh!t.
You guessed.
You 'supported' a side, that's all.
The actions and subsequent statements of the HD DVD show that wjhat I have described was the true sitaution, they went off to CES 2008 convinced that they had convinced Warner to sign to HD DVD.
Unfortunately they had not reckoned on Fox & Disney's wrecking influence
(it's pretty obvious now that they only ever entered negotiations to spoil and were never serious).
One day the whole tale will come out.
Meantime the PS3/Blu-ray fanclub can delude itself that this obvious attempt by the movie & CE industry to exert further control & power over what we buy and how we watch it is going anywhere beyond the high price, high margin game console niche.
Good luck with that.
TT,
I never said that "I knew" anything. I predicted what happen based on what I read from the players involved. It was clear that with the majority of the studios lined up with blue, Warner going red would only lengthen the format war, something they didn't want. The only clear way to end it was to go blue, and not only would it end it but end it quickly. This is what they said they wanted, this is what they did, this is what I *predicted*, not knew, *predicted* based on how strong each side was and how the sales were going on each side.
You have a problem accepting that HD DVD got whomped. Who cares if they fully expected going into CES to get a Warner endorsement, it didn't happen that way and why would they expect that? Most rumors leading up to that time were Warner going blue, and they did. Seems like HD DVD camp was in denial or completely naive.
All this doesn't matter, you were wrong, spectacularly wrong. I got it right. Maybe I was lucky but I made my prediction based not on faith but on facts on the ground. You on the other hand based yours on wishful thinking and "insider" information LOL....
"Blu-ray (let alone HD DVD) never happened" my arss. There is still one HD contender, Bollywood-friendly HD-VMD. Just don't hope Toshiba joins the HD-VMD side (which I'll call the Green camp as compared to Blu-ray [Blu camp] and HD DVD [Red camp])
If this Super Upconversion technology is better than the highend REON upconversion chip used in Toshiba's XA-2 HD DVD player at an affordable price, then I'm sold! I have a HUGE DVD collection of more than 1000 movies.
From my experience using just a standard $100 upconverting DVD player, I can tell you that upconversion is good enough for the majority of people out there, even the ones with HDTVs. For example, on my cheap $100 upconverting DVD player, the upconverted image sometimes rival the best broadcast HD channels. Imagine what Toshiba's technology could do for the masses if it's upconversion is even better than the highly regarded REON chip.
Choice is a good thing.
The oppo DV-983H uses anchor bay chipsets which is in their higher end DVDO upscalers which costs at least 1000 bucks. Can we say that this is the best dvd upscaler right now?
Wonder how much will this so called super upscaler would be bettter than this current oppo player.
how is the DV-983H oppo upscale quality in comparison to that of a Blu-ray or hddvd player??? Oppo at $399 is almost the same price as other Blu-ray players. Does one get an Oppo or a Blu-ray
While I agree that no matter how good Toshiba's player is it won't beat true HD, all of you should understand that INTERPOLATION is a far superior process to UPSCALING.
Upscaling players (which is what we have on the market now) simply take the 480 lines of the DVD signal and convert it to 1080. This results in a slightly cleaner picture but it's not a huge difference because there is no extra information.
Toshiba is using interpolation, which actually anylizes each scan line and creates new ones to go in between.
Many years ago, when HD was new, I read reports about how Faroudja was offering stations who couldn't afford to switch to HD either an upscaling or interpolation process; people were very impressed by how close to HD the interpolated signal was, but the box was very expensive so most people opted for plain old upscaling.
Now, of course, the tech is cheaper and in theory this is what Toshiba will be offering.
Again, it won't be as good as HD, but it will be interesting to see how much better it looks.
I project video on a 10-foot screen and I have to be honest, a good DVD still looks plenty sharp - sharp enough that I have not been quick to upgrade to HD yet. If Toshiba can give me even a 25% sharper picture with interpolation, it might be a good enough upgrade while I wait for Blu-Ray to mature.
Mojo:
Please stop the fud. When a picture is upscaled, interpoloation has already taken place so that the output resolution is high res..
btw, interpoloation is can never create new information.. you can not create new information from nothing and I really suggest you read up on the topic before your spread your ignorant lies here