Dell keeps promise, invokes fees for "downgrading" to Windows XP

Oh no, Dell isn't forgetting to do its duty to Microsoft. Just as promised, it has now bumped up the prices for folks wanting to stick with Windows XP Professional. As of now, the only way to get XP pre-installed is by selecting an option that also throws Vista in the box, and if you're specifically after Windows XP Home Edition or Windows XP MCE, you're thoroughly out of luck. On eligible machines, it looks as if getting XP Pro along with Vista Business will cost you $99 more than Vista Home alone, while having Vista Ultimate ride shotgun adds another $50. Or you can look at it like Dell's tossing in XP for free with those upper-level Vista packs -- whatever floats your boat. Let us know if you notice any different pricing arrangements.

[Via ComputerWorld]

[John @ Jun 19th 2008 9:18AM]

By now, every PC owner should have AT LEAST one unlimited-use XP disc laying around the house.

[yuanzhoulu @ Jun 19th 2008 3:16PM]

i don't. i have a crapload of gentoo and ubuntu disks though.

[Monte @ Jun 19th 2008 4:00PM]

I don't have an extra disc laying around. Just one for the desktop I built and one for my laptop.

Anyway, if you were planning on going with XP Pro, this shouldn't really affect you (as long as you're buying an eligible machine). XP Pro was already an extra $100 over the XP Home price (at least on every system I've priced recently). And you do have the option of moving to Vista... maybe when SP2 comes out?

However, I spoke with one of the sales people on the phone the other day, and he mentioned that the price might be going up soon.

So, if you wanted XP Pro, you might want to act fast.

[BuddyBoy @ Jun 19th 2008 9:21AM]

How many hands are enough for the Nazis?

[inteller @ Jun 19th 2008 9:22AM]

Vista SP1 makes XP look like ancient history. Why anyone would want to keep 2001 tech around is beyond me.

[MemphisNET @ Jun 19th 2008 9:30AM]

Futureshop/Best Buy sales people and other media journalists/self-proclaimed experts spread fear and propaganda. There's nothing wrong, or broken in Vista.

The whole ''Vista Capable'' drama pre-launch is most of what is hurting them now.

[Steven @ Jun 19th 2008 9:35AM]

"Why anyone would want to keep 2001 tech around is beyond me."

Performance.

[John @ Jun 19th 2008 9:36AM]

HE'S BAAAAAAAACCCKKK

[Good_Bytes @ Jun 19th 2008 9:42AM]

My friend purchased an HP computer with Vista. HP put SOOO much freaking crap inside, Vista did not run anything smoothly. It was so bad it really looked for an average user that the Vista sucks.
I got out my Vista 64-bit disk, and perform a clean install with his product key (of course), and bank the system runs perfectly, way better then what XP ever would!

HP includes crap like:
- HP gaming center
- Ebay ad about everywhere
- 30Free MP3 or wtv, with some DRM watch program for it
- Yahoo toolbar
- Google tool bar (yea BOTH!, probably conflicting between each other)
- Google side bar + Windows Sidebar (why they don't disable one of them? or simply use the one in Vista?!)
- HP games
- Roxio Free Edition (Which is actually a special version that shows ads and pop-ups inside the program to "pay the program")
- HP support center

I forgot the rest, but I remember that this is half of it. Even spyware was found with Windows Defender itself.

Anyway, now I get it how some people say Vista sucks. Especially that all use Vista 32-bit when they have NO reason to actually use it.

[Kurian @ Jun 19th 2008 9:43AM]

TL;DR

[Good_Bytes @ Jun 19th 2008 9:47AM]

@clak

WinFS, No one really knows what it is... It could be nothing more then marketing B.S.
Read this as well: http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2008/05/17/where-is-winfs-now.aspx

ReadyBoost does work... you just need to get the fast Flash drive... you won't find them at Best Buy... Look at REAL computer stores. Your flash drivce needs to be faster then your HDD. So if you have a 10000RPM HDD< then good luck finding a flash drive that match that sped, however 7200, and lower you can. Look at Corsair or OCZ.

PC-to-PC synchronization. Is is THAT hard to drag and drop a folder? Come on!

[r3loaded @ Jun 19th 2008 9:50AM]

@Good_bytes

Spyware found on brand new computer? HP, I smell class-action coming right up....

[Seth @ Jun 19th 2008 9:43PM]

I agree, so many people want to continue to hate Vista they haven't stopped to check that its actually fine now.

[BobTurbo @ Jun 19th 2008 9:55AM]

Vista is 2001 tech, just released late.

[CraigJ @ Jun 19th 2008 10:19AM]

Seth, sorry, I use Vista and XP everyday, and Vista is not "fine". It is a annoyingly slow, and doesn't do anything for me that XP doesn't do.

I've been buying a new Dell every year or two for the last 10 years. This move by them means my next computer will probably be a Mac.

I honestly do not know why people feel the need to protect Vista. Microsoft unloaded a piece of crap on us that does not live up to the original promises, they created 7 freaking versions when 2 would have done fine and it does not match the performance of XP. Continuously asking me if I'm sure is just as lame as security by obscurity. They arbitrarily renamed things, apparently just to make the uses do more work.

Yes, I can make Vista work, and yes I can configure it so that is is a little faster (but still not close to XP) but the fact is that I don't want to. I no longer have the patience or the time to screw around with this crap. The OS should not constantly get in my way.

I've had every Microsoft operating system since DOS 3, and with the exception of Windows Me, Vista is the worst OS "upgrade" Microsoft has ever released. Maybe I'll check out Windows 7, but for now, I'm done with Windows.

[Matt @ Jun 19th 2008 10:24AM]

Clak, who are you kidding, you're never going to look at Windows 7. :-)

[mirakutea @ Jun 19th 2008 10:53AM]

Ya, the wheel was invented many years ago and its still useful.

[PeterF @ Jun 19th 2008 11:36AM]

@clak
you listed the upgrade version of each, doubling the list's length. Those aren't actually different versions, just cheapers versions for whoever already owns Windows. Most people don't even upgrade their OS, and never deal with those when buying a new PC. Anyone who upgrades their OS by buying it and installing it knows enough to distinguish between full and upgrade. Your anti-MS bias is obvious.

[Steffen Jobbs @ Jun 19th 2008 11:41AM]

I'd like to say they're not upgrading to Vista because shyte don't fly, but these are just a few legitimate reasons why: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Users-Not-Upgrading-XP-to-Vista-Even-with-SP1-SP3-Didn-039-t-Do-It-85969.shtml

I'd already tried using Vista Ultimate and stopped, not because there was anything really bad with Vista, it's just that it required more processing power than XP and didn't offer very much more than what XP could do. Individual users and business don't want to spend extra money for such a little return. That's all. Why do you think all this talk is going on about hanging on to XP. These are MS users, so it not that they hate MS and Vista. It's just not that Vista isn't that necessary to have. Maybe you already have a powerful computer and it's fine for you, but not everybody is in your position.

[Jason @ Jun 19th 2008 12:08PM]

Vista still mostly uses a code base from the mid-to-late 90s.

[r3loaded @ Jun 19th 2008 1:55PM]

Again, to clak and all the others:

If Vista really is so bad, why don't YOU do better and make your own OS?

[Forrest @ Jun 19th 2008 3:46PM]

@Clak:

Application developers are to blame for registry use. I have several applications that I can run from anywhere - I can move them around as I please. Nobody is forcing developers (developers, developers) to use the registry, and in fact from what I hear (maybe just rumor, but whatever) Microsoft never intended the registry to be used in that way in the first place.

As for Aero being a copy of Aqua - when YOU control the hardware that your OS goes on, you have FAR more power over how that OS does its thing. Who is to blame for the featureless shell that is Vista? Take a look at hardware manufacturers that wanted to continue to sell garbage to your average moron consumer. They wanted to be able to push the new OS, so they pressured Microsoft to eliminate or neuter certain features. Are you telling me they couldn't have made every part of the GUI a 3D element accelerated by the graphics hardware? OF COURSE THEY COULD. Except, you know, all those crap-ass Intel integrated graphics chipsets floating around.

I used XP Pro since shortly after it was released, and I loved it. I still use it on my desktop, as the 64 bit Vista drivers drivers nVidia has blessed me with are garbage. I have used Vista for the last month or so on my new laptop, and I love it. Everything performs beautifully. I use several design applications - in XP after having them all going and running for awhile, after closing everything I would still be using more RAM than when I started. With Vista I get everything back. With Vista it's nearly instant on and off. I love the changes to the start menu. And yes, despite its mainly being window dressing, I like Aero.

It's easy for people to sit back and shower praise on Apple's developers, but don't forget they know the full range and capability of the hardware they're developing for. Microsoft has to balance functionality and features with a FAR wider range of hardware plus whatever unknowns are going to pop up toward the end of the OS's life cycle.

[phanbouy @ Jun 19th 2008 2:34PM]

"r3loaded "If Vista really is so bad, why don't YOU do better and make your own OS?"

ding ding ding! winner of most specious internet argument of the day!

[BuddyBoy @ Jun 19th 2008 2:34PM]

@r3loaded

I hate that sort of attitude.
Your not allowed to say anything bad, about anything, unless you can make it better.

Do you tell anyone who tells you a certain movie is bad to go do better and spend $60 million?

[Vidit Bhargava @ Jun 19th 2008 4:21PM]

wow Clak...are you drunk or on drugs dude...first time I've seen you writing any sense here ;)
but seriously...are those the things that made you chuck windows and start using Mac??? did you consider such things to make the switch???

[Joel @ Jun 19th 2008 9:23AM]

I've found that hardware and software that was originally WHQL certified or sports the "Made for Windows 2000" and "Made for Windows XP" logos tend to have no compatibility problems and don't generate the security prompts except during installation and removal.

[frumpsnake @ Jun 19th 2008 9:24AM]

"On eligible machines, it looks as if getting XP Pro along with Vista Business will cost you $99 more than Vista Business alone"

Am I missing something? The screenshot says
$0 - Home Basic
$99 - Vista Business
$99 - Vista Business + XP Pro

[Steve Paine @ Jun 19th 2008 9:27AM]

Thats what i'm seeing. Where's the story?
Steve

[CosterMonger @ Jun 19th 2008 10:22AM]

"Adding Vista Business to a Vostro 1000 notebook, for example, costs an additional $99 above the price with the default operating system, Vista Home Basic. However, selecting the downgrade option -- Windows XP pre-installed and Vista Business installation media in the box -- costs $149. That's a $50 downgrade surcharge."

this story is all because Vista Basic isn't included with the downgrade plan? LOL :)

I think most people would gladly pay to 'upgrade' from Vista Basic to XP Pro

[CraigJ @ Jun 19th 2008 10:24AM]

The point is that to get XP, you have to pay for an upgrade to Vista Business that you're not going to use, even if you don't need the business features.

Basically they killed XP Home.

[kris @ Jun 19th 2008 9:25AM]

Seriously MS? Penalize people for wanting the wrong one of your products? My laptop is 3 years old (P-M 1.5 + 2GB) and it still runs XP and everything I do really fast.. Plus, the battery still gives me almost 2 hours (WITH wireless on). You can bet on this though, I won't be buying any new laptop that makes me pay for an OS I don't want. I'd rather overpay for an Apple.

[Neeko @ Jun 19th 2008 9:29AM]

Why wouldn't MS want you to buy their new OS?

Thanks APPLE fanboy for your comment.

[kris @ Jun 19th 2008 9:44AM]

God I hate generalizations. I'm not a fanboy at all, I have never even OWNED an Apple computer. Allow me to recap: I have XP Pro on my laptop and it's just fine. I'd rather overpay for an Apple than overpay for a computer that has Vista on it (when I'd much rather just keep XP). That's what I get for expecting meaningful additions to the conversation and not just poorly directed "insults".

[Seth @ Jun 19th 2008 9:43PM]

Its not a penalty - Dell's #1 cost base is customer support - supporting twice as many OS's for the same units costs more labor. They've eaten that cost during transition as a cost of doing business, but people who want to continue to have that support will have to subsidize it.

[kal326 @ Jun 19th 2008 9:59AM]

@kris
What is keeping you from putting XP on a new laptop? If you want XP go buy a retail copy of XP Pro and keep it around until you get a new laptop. Or if you already have a retail copy, which may be the case since you are running XP Pro which normally did not come on a lot of laptops. If you have a retail version you can move that copy to your new notebook as long as you wipe it off your old one. I have done that will 4 or 5 machines that I have had since I got a copy of WinXP Pro back in 2002. Its perfectly legal as long as its removed from the old machine. Now if your old laptop came with WinXP Pro preloaded as an OEM, you would have to buy a retail box copy before they are pulled.

[CosterMonger @ Jun 19th 2008 10:08AM]

a better comment would be "I rather go with a free os over having to pay extra for XP"

mentioning Apple on Engadget (a pro apple site, so kind of redundant), makes you sound like you're a fanboy.

[Reid @ Jun 19th 2008 10:52AM]

Kris,

Welcome to the kneejerk "zomg you're an Appel fanboi" reaction that you get any time you post anything remotely anti-Microsoft :) That's why I have an Apple logo in my avatar, might as well lay my cards on the table.

To those bitching out MS for this, it's doubtful that they get any money from it. It's probably just Dell charging for the hassle.

After all, it is true that you have unlimited "downgrade" rights, right? All you need is XP media. Dell's just charging you to install XP as a custom order because they can.

[Andrew @ Jun 19th 2008 11:16AM]

@Kal

Why would someone want to PAY for an OS with their new laptop that they have no desire to use? That's pure profit going to Microsoft for absolutely no reason at all!

[kal326 @ Jun 19th 2008 11:50AM]

@Andrew
Its called the "I wanna tax", if you want to do something beyond the scope of the original purchase its probably going to cost you something extra. Its not a new thing, it happens all the time. You pay for stuff you are never going to use or for stuff that you are going to replace with something else that you like all the time. Why is this any different.

If you don't want pay for Windows Vista, nobody is forcing you to buy a manufactured system. Go buy the parts individually and build your own. It can be done with desktops, laptops, and servers. Is it as easy or as convenient, no probably not. So if you don't want to pay for Vista, don't. Go buy a Mac, a prebuilt system with linux on it, or build your own. You will stick it to Microsoft, by depriving them of the $10-20 they lost by not selling an OEM license to a PC manufacture because you didn't want Vista.

[kal326 @ Jun 19th 2008 11:52AM]

@Andrew
Its called the "I wanna tax", if you want to do something beyond the scope of the original purchase its probably going to cost you something extra. Its not a new thing, it happens all the time. You pay for stuff you are never going to use or for stuff that you are going to replace with something else that you like all the time. Why is this any different.

If you don't want pay for Windows Vista, nobody is forcing you to buy a manufactured system. Go buy the parts individually and build your own. It can be done with desktops, laptops, and servers. Is it as easy or as convenient, no probably not. So if you don't want to pay for Vista, don't. Go buy a Mac, a prebuilt system with linux on it, or build your own. You will stick it to Microsoft, by depriving them of the $10-20 they lost by not selling an OEM license to a PC manufacture because you didn't want Vista.

[Jason @ Jun 19th 2008 12:41PM]

"Why wouldn't MS want you to buy their new OS? "

I agree, but seems they'd just make it better rather than twist your arm.

[Neeko @ Jun 19th 2008 9:26AM]

Its not Vista thats the problem here. its all the craptastic software that is pre-installed with the OS that causes tons of problems.

You have probably 10 other pieces of software that are pre-installed and constantly monitoring your PC hogging resources that the OS could use. Then most uninformed users blame the OS for not working fast enough. When i look at friends PCs and i see 90 day trials of Norton and Dells monitoring EVERYTHING YOUR DOING ON YOUR PC SOFTWARE those are the 1st to go. After that you can already see performance increases.

Granted im not saying VISTA is perfect but it takes a lot of blame for badly written software thats installed buy the user and pre-installed when bought.

[kal326 @ Jun 19th 2008 10:21AM]

Wow clak, nice way to spread the FUD on thick.

1) DRM nothing new, not going away, each version will be cracked eventually. As long as we are pointing fingers, whens the last time you played an iTunes DRM'd file on anything Apple didn't say was OK without removing the DRM? No Apple certified device or software, no iTunes music.

2) Windows Genuine Advantage will not deactivate a machine on a driver change, certain hardware changes yes. Most times, Windows will just reactivate over the internet. If there have been a significant number of changes then you may have to call in, no big deal. Yes this can be pretty annoying for a user and I have had to call before as I change out some hardware every 6-8 months. On the flip side as a developer that has worked for small business, I can support some of this anti piracy functionality. If its minimally invasive to the user and it protects your interests as well as keeping original legit software with the user I can accept the inconvenience.

As for Windows Defender, there is an allow programs option that will make it ignore certain programs. Its a little thing called being an intelligent user, look into it.

3)UAC and developers. Its not like this was something that fell out of the sky and nobody knew about it. Developers were well aware of the change over. Expecting Administrative permissions to use a program is just flat out poor programming. There are very, very few circumstances were an application would need to have the user running as an Administrator to function properly. So if you were a sloppy or half assed programmer then UAC would cause you to go back and rewrite some code. If you followed the best practices for programming all along then you had very little trouble with the UAC change over.

[Gatica @ Jun 19th 2008 4:38PM]

I remember XP with no service packs was full of bugs and BSOD, it wasn't until SP2 that XP finally became a stable os and I would expect that vista won't be fully stable until it reaches SP2. The two problems with vista I hear people complain about are hardware and software, well its time to retire that pc from 1998 and buy something new, how can a company be innovative when people want to keep using 10 year old software, easy don't support it any more. It's not Microsoft's fault that manufactures tried to use crappy hardware or that Nvidia writes drivers for vista causing it to crash if you read the screen during install it says "that this driver is not signed by Microsoft do you wish to continue" then they blame MS because they got BSOD.

[Buy good hardware not junk]

[Matt @ Jun 19th 2008 9:26AM]

ummm, am I the only one who has noticed that vista business and vista business with XP are both a $99 upgrade on the image shown? the $0 price option is vista home.

[Neeko @ Jun 19th 2008 10:43AM]

@ CLAK

Like i said "Granted im not saying VISTA is perfect but it takes a lot of blame for badly written software thats installed by the user and pre-installed when bought."

I wasnt taking all blame off Vista but im confused with what you wrote.

1.(The Protected Video Path) now i have a (friend) who pirates everything. Said person has every type of media on his PC from everywhere you can imagine. And not ONCE has he EVER..EVER had a problem with DRM while running VIsta. From backing up HDDVD, BluRay disk to recording HD content and playing it back on his PC or sharing it with EVERY device he owns. Which are 2 laptops,1 desktop,XBOX 360 and one IPOD TOUCH. Each one of these devices works flawlessly for what he needs. DRM has never been a problem for him. So please explain to me what hardware your talking about that does NOT work and has hindered the Vista user from getting a funtioning product?


2.(Windows Genuine Advantage and Windows Defender) I have never heard of neither one of these services or programs causing harm to a large portion of VIsta users. Now im not saying it doesnt happen. But i dont see or hear people picking up pitch forks and storming the castle cause there PC stop functioning. My (friend) also uses bitcomet and various other torrent and file sharing apps and he has never had a problem were either app was removed anything that wasnt needed. Now i havent heard of this being a huge problem like you reference.

3. (UAC) Now this i partially agree with you on. UAC on vista is a double edged sword. Yes its freakn annoying sometimes to be stopped every few seconds being asked a question, but without it we would have the same problem were badly written programs would have total access to my system and make changes that i wouldnt normally allow.

Yeah i have probably gone a little to far. But my point basically was that in NO way can you say that these issues make VISTA unusable. None of your points are road blocks to usage. All can either be deactivated or simply dont do anything that the average or even advanced user couldnt just circumvent.

Now if you were such an advanced computer user as your tone in all you Engadget post would seem, then you would have ways around all these co called issues and use your PC as you wish.

[rock99rock @ Jun 19th 2008 9:27AM]

What are you , new?

[pfromg @ Jun 19th 2008 9:28AM]

are there not laws against this kind thing?
if not , there should be.

[pfromg @ Jun 19th 2008 9:32AM]

To get the product you want , you HAVE to buy vista, this has to be illegal !
im 100% sure it is illegal in many European countries.

[Jon @ Jun 19th 2008 9:39AM]

That is definitely what we need. Let's have the government regulate business even more, telling them how to do their business which has worked out so well. OR, Microsoft can do what is best for the field and push for the change. I know some on you are still sporting Windows 3.1 but it's time for everyone wake up and realize it is going to happen.

It's almost like we forgot we did the same thing for Windows 98, Windows XP, and will continue to do it. And as someone else noted, someone has to have a XP CD laying around for you to borrow if you don't have one already.