Montreal's Public Bike System uses RFID, solar power, and tons of social trust
By Joshua Fruhlinger 
posted Jun 22nd 2008 4:20PM
posted Jun 22nd 2008 4:20PM
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I've seen this in Paris- it works brilliantly but I'm not sure if it has actually taken much traffic off the road or just people who were using the bus/metro beforehand anyway.
"what if a popular destination has no available docks for a drop-off?"
i think the point is to put them in popular destinations.
Austin: I meant: Say there's an event at some downtown venue, and more people show up with rent-a-bikes than there are docks, assuming they already put docks there. Happens with Zip car sometimes.
Yeah he means what if all the docks are full what are you supposed to do with the bike.
I guess in that case , BRING YOUR OWN BIKE!
A program with bikes for rent with docking stations has been in operation in Oslo for years and works perfectly. The bikes don`t make anybody drool, so only the occasional heroin enthusiast bothers to steal one.
The docking stations are connected to Internet and monitored. Trucks move around the city filling up empty stations and removing bikes from full ones.
I'm guessing that if its popular, then it will probably have a dock there. My worry would be more on the side of sanitation, and all the sweaty butts that have been on that seat before me. I would never use one of these...mainly for the same reason I don't like using public restrooms or porta-potties for my business.
You need to visit a 3rd world country. You will love it. It will be a huge eye opener.
Ryan's got a point, though. I mean, I often ride my bike with my butt on the handlebars, and my face resting on the seat (I just find it more comfortable), so a sanitary bike seat is definitely a concern for me.
Try pants. They're awesome.
Try pants. They're awesome.
ultraaaa! ultraaaa! ultraaaaaa!!!!!!
But what kinda business are you in?
Community bicycle programs without user electronic identification struggle against theft and vandalism. In one program tried in 1993 in Cambridge, United Kingdom, all 300 bicycles were stolen on the first day of operation, and the program was abandoned.[citation needed]
Hmmm... If they made the system only available by debit/credit card (no prepaid debit cards allowed), then they should just be able to charge the card for the full amount of the cost of the bike, no?
Yes, you do need a citation.
Did you just google this, or something?
"what if a popular destination has no available docks for a drop-off?"
In the french one they constantly monitor how many bikes are on each dock but there are deifinitely more than 6 places available on most of the ones I saw (maybe around 15) . If one dock has too few they send a truckload to that place.
Community bicycle programs without user electronic identification
struggle against theft and vandalism. In one program tried in 1993 in
Cambridge, United Kingdom, all 300 bicycles were stolen on the first
day of operation, and the program was abandoned.
from wikipedia
although i support wikipedia it's moto is a free encyclopedia anyone caan edit so by the very nature it can sometimes unacurate
Although I support good spelling and grammar, anyone can post comments on Engadget, so by it’s very nature it can sometimes be inaccurate.
Wolfticket:
Although I support you punishing those who use horrible grammar, by its very nature, make sure you use the right "its".
Touché
(And i checked it extra carefull like for erors, for obvious reason's :D)
Apple fanboys embarrass the mac users.
Me thinks Steve and Edwardo are Clak.
Haiki: u can haz irrelevance?
& Dima
"without user electronic identification struggle against theft and vandalism."
And that's why this system HAS "user electronic identification".
Aww dammit, I pressed the wrong reply button.
These programs are a great idea for densely populated urban areas with warm climates, but they make absolutely no sense in America. Most of our cities are too spread out, and those that aren't (Really, NYC is the only example) are rife with crime and inclimate weather. It works in European/Scandanavian Utopias, but not in the U.S. But hey, if it assuages American hipsters' European-influenced inferiority complexes, go for it.
Oh yes, because there's never been a sunny day without crime ever in NYC. Yes, a relatively crime-free Spring day has never rolled around. Seriously, NYC really is inundated with snow and crime. In fact, the crime rate has seriously gone down and, believe or not, the sun shines sometimes.
I disagree with you (clearly). I actually think this is a good idea. There are plenty of times when I'd like to enjoy the nice weather (such as today) without the hassle of bringing my own bike places.
Saying American cities are less dense is a clear over generalization. Let's say dozens are less dense, there are dozens where this kind of system makes sense. This system works well in dense areas, of course, but it's great in areas like Brooklyn or Queens where you don't want to build a new rail line and where some areas are incredibly under served. That's what makes this system so great in Paris. You can ride on their bike paths to areas under served by metro in short periods of time and have a place to leave your bike. I only ran into a full rack once and that was by the Eiffel tower during summer at peak hours. Other than that I always found a bike and always could drop them off. It's a great system that I think even smaller communities could benefit from. And by that I'm referring specifically to Wilmington, DE which has about 80,000 people and is not considered one of America's great cities.
You need to actually go to NYC. It's different than the movies, especially these days. But you're right about density. This isn't good for LA, but it could work in parts of San Fran, NYC, Montreal, etc.
It works well throughout Europe, which really isn't a "utopia." Seriously, I'm not sure if you've spent much if any time in either Europe or NY.
Montreal is a great city for cycling; If theft isn't a problem, this program will do very well.
I'm sorry since when was Montreal part of the US? I totally disagree with the overgeneralization of North American cities. Besides last time I checked Scandinavia wasn't really known for being a warm temperate area...
I don't care if you're being serious or sarcastic, whatever you're saying sucks.
Hey man be quite. First of all if you didn't care then you would not of responded. Get over your arrogant self and for once keep your comments to yourself. Thank you.
"what if a popular destination has no available docks for a drop-off?"
Exactly this happened to me in Paris a couple of times since Paris has a similar system with "docking-stations". Quite frustrating if you have to cruise around with your bike to find a "parking space". I prefer the Munich system where you can drop-off your bike wherever you want since it's not using docking stations.
But automation and docking stations are key to a good system where thousands of people use the bikes each day. In Zurich (just a summer experimental program) where you give collateral and a deposit and then bring it back it takes 5 minutes to get a bike whereas in Paris it taktes 3 minutes the first time and 30 second each other time. Also, you can have more stations when you don't need to staff them. The key isn't scrapping the automation it's improving the response of the transit program in moving bikes when necessary and in really dense areas (Eiffel Tower) have each station point to other stations in the area (they did have okay little maps, could have been better).
@Dima,
If you steal the bike they simply gonna charge you either via you member pass (which require account or credit card) or on your credit card.
cash payment is for parking only.
I imagine these could have the same problems that similar car system like zipcar have. People just plain treating them like shit. Although it's much easier to upkeep a bike than a car.
I'm thinking Edwardo and Steve are the same person.
This isn't really new, Paris has some 15,000 biles available electronicly at "stations" throughout the city that are supposed to be no less than 300m apart and are quite frequently much closer than that. Although it's not wireless or solar powered, it's been up since last July and uses RFID on the bikes and the RFID metro cards.
Really, the only thing that's news here is the solar powered, wireless system that allows stations to be setup and moved at will.
As for Paris, the system (called Velib) is immensely successful. And is itself a bigger version of the system in Lyon, France which was in place at least a year before Paris. Bikes do get vandalized but with a 150euro block on your credit card to rent, people are a little more careful with them.
My assumption would be that you could lock it up at the destination, and take it back to its original location when you are done with the bike. All in all though I'd rather just drop money on a bike itself.
Doomed to failure...another hippie feel good idea destined for the trash bin of reality.
hmm. after the 8th such posting it would appear that the complete assholes of the world are trolling engadget tonight.
douchebags unite!
-jp
Ha... you are a fucking idiot... right, only hippies use bicycles or public services. Hey numb nuts, both have been around a lot longer than the hippy movement. And a helluva lot longer than the neoconservative "movement"
In Oslo they have a little truck that transports mass amounts of bicycles so that there isn't any pileup.
(Kind of defeats the purpose of saving the environment, but helps the purpose of promoting community)
Atleast it's just a little pick-up for bicycles, and not TWO off road motor cycles.
I think the number of people using the bicycles, and few little pickups, pales in comparison if all those people were using their own vehicles.
why would u think windows be used i would definitely use Linux over a windows OS.
PS:Apple sucks (sept for iPhone and ipod) Apple fanboys are even worse though cause they're always obnoxious bitches.
He DRAGGED IT ACROSS?!?! Filthy spiteful buggers, hobos.
Ummm, this comment shows so much ignorance I don't know where to begin..
First of all, this is not a "high-risk experimental program". It has been tested in France ("Velove" in Lyon and "Velib" in Paris) and has been shown to be a huge success. In satisfaction surveys, 94% of people who used the Velib were satisfied, and 97% would recommend it to a friend.
I've used the Velibs myself, and they are awesome. It's extremely easy to obtain one. If you have a NaviGO transit pass, you simply touch it to the dock next to the bike and take it. If not, you can buy a ticket at the dock itself (using a bank card), which takes 2 minutes at the most.
The bikes are simple, but very well-equiped and solid. They have 3 speeds, headlight/taillight, are fairly lightweight and include a lock if you need it. You can return it at any dock, and the docks are *everywhere* so it's no problem if the bike breaks down. If there is a dock which is particularly popular (the bikes on the top of hills are more heavily used, for example), then a truck comes by to transport bikes between the docks to even things out.
And no person is going to be "too lazy" to return the bike; their bank card would be charged for the cost of the bike.
I'm thinking I don't care, 'cause I love 'em both!
@Artie
Montreal is in Canada.. not the USA. Montreal can get very very very very cold in the winter, and these bikes I'm sure will be removed in wintertime to prevent degradation and replaced in spring.
@Bluray
You think homeless guys have money and credit that they can use to rent bikes? Think.
I know Montreal is in Canada. I was remarking on similar programs being implemented in the States (like the identical one that's about to go on-line in Washington, DC). My comment regarding weather points out a flaw in the intent; why try a develop solutions that only work part of the year? What happens in the winter? Or in wetter climates? People will be less inclined to adopt the movement if it doesn't solve their personal transportation equation year-round; they'll simply invest in a car or other forms of public transportation.
Well that's just discrimination against the poor, isn't it?
I'm sure some government welfare program will provide bike stamps for them. At least, we would have to here in the good ol' U S of A.
I agree 100%. It seems like nowadays every major corporation is trying to earn brownie points by saying, "we're carbon-neutral, buy our products!" when in reality all they're really doing is paying some third-world nations to not burn coal and whatnot (even though they don't have any coal) so the corporation can use all the energy they want without feeling guilty.
It seems like the midsets of a lot of Americans with regard to being green is that as long as someone else is using the energy instead of them, it's green.
And in case you're wondering, I am American.
I can just smell the Tragedy of the Commons.
I'm still giggling like a school girl over the mental image of a smelly wino dragging his corn-hole across a bike seat. Best line ever! Frankly, that would probably be the least offensive thing that members of the chronically unemployed would do to this system. In my town, they claim bus stops as their own pied-a-tiers.
Clearly SD has been to Europe. Did you notice that SD has been to Europe? Hey! Check it out! SD has been to Europe!
BFD, Paris has had these since last year
Alright, we got Highest Ranked back for posts like Zorque's, now we gotta get Lowest Ranked back for idiots like Steve.
Thank god the PR department finally woke up. They've been trying to wake them up for 40 years. I don't care if all they do is report about the environment. They're the ones getting people off their asses. Without the PR department, you wouldn't know about rebates, you wouldn't know about technology (blogs can be considered a form of PR), and you sure as hell wouldn't know about what's going on in the world.
Thanks PR people for finally doing your job. We all know you're s***heads, but we still love you for gettin' the word out.
by the way this sistem has been used by France for a long, long time now. check it out. the system in Paris is called Velib.
I can just see the Youtube vids, shot from behind some bushes, capturing the bone-braking wrecks of random people as their bikes fall apart, their screams of pain nearly drowned out by the off-camera giggling of teen ruffians.
I really want to believe that people are inherently good. But they aren't.
I'm amazed nobody has brought up Die Bahn's bicycles in Berlin [and perhaps other parts of Germany?]. They lock their own wheels in place, so no racks are necessary; you just leave them in 'busy' areas...
I'm amazed you brought it up, I've known about that since, forever.
What the hell makes you think people who use this are "chronically unemployed"? You need at least a credit card to use the system...
Do you really believe that public transportation does nothing but cart unemployed people around all day, or have you never been to say LA, New York, Washington DC, or Chicago, where almost everyone uses the subway? Honestly, you are an idiot.
In Barcelona, they have to deal with this problem.
The popular drop-off station are always full and they have to look for other drop-off stations (check-in in all them for not being overcharged).
I think there is 140.000 users already in the city.
artie lange's posts stress me out
It could be worse. We just have to read his comments, he has to live with being a douchebag.
Artie, maybe you should listen to people who actually know what these systems are like and just shut the hell up. Spain has them, France has them, and neither country is a utopia. They work, people like them, and as long as there is some way to charge for the bikes (ID or bank card), theft isn't a huge problem.
If it doesn't work in a particular city, then too bad. They gave it a shot.
That's because the newer public bike systems are modeled on the successes, not the failures. Why bring up early, poorly-implemented attempts at something to discredit the wiser, more modern implementations?
"That Boeing 787 is bound to be a failure.. I mean, look at the HUNDREDS of people who tried to build airplanes in the late 1800s and FAILED!!1111"
If a bike isn't returned in x amount of time, charge the fee of the bike to the credit card until it is returned.
Only 6 bikes, what if I go to return my bike but the rack where they go is already full?
If you bothered to visit the referenced website, you would see a 14 unit rack shown.
It also mentions that one station can support a unlimited number of racks.
I think this program would do wonders all around the world, not just here in Canada (Montreal).
I'm sure some bikes would get "stolen" but with your identity clearly known, what would be the point? They could just bill you for the bike.
I can't wait for a similar program here in Toronto, I'd jump on it!
The project is called Vélibre, a portmanteau word made up of the words 'vélo' (bicycle) and 'libre' (free). It's still is the testing phase. The company contracted with the high-tech RFID system is a local company called Purelink Technology. Their product is pretty cutting edge, with the ability to perform actual real-time tracking of tagged objects.
All joking aside, your name is wrong.
In Rome, IT we have had this for some time and it seems to work well. The bikes look very clean and I don't see many of the rental racks missing tons of bikes, which is surprising because I have had 3 bikes stolen in the past 3 years!
My question is opposite of what others have brought up. What happens if you were to drop off the bike at an empty rack that someone else was waiting to use a bike? What happens if you want to go to another destination and someone else uses your bike?
The bikes have built-in locks, so if you want to leave it somewhere and pick it up later, you don't bring it back to a dock. Instead, you use the lock, just as you would with a regular bike. You only dock it when you don't need it anymore.
Social trust??
FAIL!
You can swear here, really.
I'm afraid I'm narrow-minded enough that I'd intuitively say: "that'll never work". And yet I've seen it be a stunning success in Barcelona. The bikes are distinctive and you see them in action on every street at every hour, ridden by all kinds of (decent) people. For those who speak Spanish (or Catalan), see "http://www.bicing.com". Even if you only speak English, check this map of the stations (and the density!). Clicking on a station shows the number of bikes and the number of available slots:
http://www.bicing.com/localizaciones/localizaciones.php?TU5fTE9DQUxJWkFDSU9ORVM%3D&MQ%3D%3D
"what if a popular destination has no available docks for a drop-off?"
That is the most ... lame (no offense Joshua) conclusion I have ever seen on this great ENGADGET Weblog.
Do you really think dozens of engineers and decision makers would spend so much time and money in planning such a Bike System and don't think about this possibility ???!
Two major French cities (Paris and Lyon) already have those systems and I never had any problem with them! Small pickups "equilibrate" the amount of bikes in each station. And if you steal a bike they simply charge your credit card and send you the cops!
Also Ryan told: "My worry would be more on the side of sanitation, and all the sweaty butts that have been on that seat before me."
Man I hope you have never traveled around the world. Do you wear a Gas mask when you go out? I also hope you have never touched an American Dollar bill... they are pretty dirty.
I don't think Ryan knows about pants yet.
And to address that particular concern, I'm going to bet that the NEXT version of this system will come with seats that can be replaced with your own.
Just snap in your own sweaty butt's seat and ride away.
They have the same system here in Barcelona. It's great. If you want to read more about it, just go to bicing.com. That's their website. You have to have a registered credit card and reside in barcelona. I always get tourists coming up to me and asking me how they can use them... it's meant for residents and for transportation means, not for a casual stroll down the beach.
I live in Paris and this system work really well. I hope they will put more than 6 bike in every station...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib'
"Clearly SD has been to Europe. Did you notice that SD has been to Europe? Hey! Check it out! SD has been to Europe!"
Artie, you are the ringleader of internet douchebags.
This concept was first developed by JC Decaux in France. (http://www.jcdecaux.org/)
In the city of "Lyon" you can find bike station every 200m and you don´t have to pay for the first 30min.
In paris,(http://www.en.velib.paris.fr/abonnements_tarifs/abonnement_1_an) you pay a 45$ annual subscription and you can use these bikes for free (30min then plugin it to a station, waiting 2min then again 30min for free) the whole year.
Except overcrowded station in some parts of the city, that system is brilliant!
It also exists in Toulouse (France) and has been extended to night time. A great way to come back home when you're drunk.
Apple fanboys embarrass the mac users.
Me thinks Steve and Edwardo are Clak.
It works like candy here in Norway. You have to sign up for a bike-card (14 US$ per year) and there are no other costs for actually taking a bike.
When you pick one up, you have to return it after 3 hours of use (at any bike-station throughout the city) but you can pick up a new one immediately (and again use it for 3 hours). If you exceed this limit for three times, your card is being canceled.
If a bike-rack is full or empty, the rack will point out the closest station where you can pick up/drop off a bike. And of course they installed larger and more racks at popular places. Because this system is so popular, you just have to wait a minute or two til somebody takes a bike from a full rack or returns one at an empty rack.
So I guess it all depends on charging/registration and a wise spreading of bike racks.
Yellow Bike Project. Google it.
this idea would work great in Amseterdam since they pretty much have that system already just without the cool RFID bikes.
I've been in Paris this winter, and this thing seems to work brilliantly there. Montreal is the international capital of bike theft, so they'd better make sure the monitoring system works. The only other problem I see here, is that we won't be able to use it 6 months a year.
Listen... We have this in barcelona for over a year and there are already over 1 MILLION users!
The system is not perfect, you do run into problems sometimes when you want to pick up a bike in a less popular destination, but drop off is not usually a problem.
The system is actually developed and maintained by ClearChannel an american company. I believe part of the concept of their system is that they could use the bike as moving add space. This would subsidize the system for the end user, but they just dont do it here cause transit authority is the one paying for the system. You pay 25 euros a month and get an RFID card. No credit card, which makes the system less vulnerable against theft. They have all your bank info and ID number... so you will get billed 100 euros for "loosing" your bike.
I choose it over having my own bike, cause when I get where im going i dont have to worry about where to leave my bike or if it gets vandalized. The cost is so low having my own bike just feels dumb compared to it.
I dont worry about homeless people using them as toilet paper, maybe because we dont have many homeless here (its called democratic socialism, you should try it sometime! SF is ruled by tramps for f**k sake!)
Its not just about speed and money though. I much rather cycle than ride the subway.
sorry, its 25 euros a year not a month...
i was in barcelona at christmas, and they have a system like this there, bicying they call it. seemed cool, we borrowed friends cards, since you have to be a member. bikes were fun three speeds, easy to ride on cobblestones and the like. you pick one up, ride around and drop it off later. we did get a couple wobbly broken bikes, but there are plenty more, so we swapped them out.
we did have a real hard time ditching them when we got back to plaza Catalonia where the metros all are, because all the racks were full, and there were about 20 people all circling, looking for empty spots.
I think montreal would be a great place for this, and even wish they would do it here in new york, but its really for short hops and sightseeing. I prefer my real bike for the trek over manhattan bridge from brooklyn to work.
GROSS! I don't want to share a bicycle w/ some random people.
What kind of maintenance or sanitation would be used on these bikes?
If you go to a proper rental car agency, they prep the cars per rental. I seriously don't see it happening for these bikes.
Im pretty sure most can afford a bicycle vs. this bad idea. I can see the thefts now all over the news... and ebay XD..."solar cycle for 200 dollars! Note: bicycle must be taken back to a charging station I stole it from to recharge it!!!" Priceless...
In big german cities there is a similar system in place for several years now. It works quite well and it is a success. I use it myself fequently.
Link
http://www.callabike-interaktiv.de/kundenbuchung/process.php?proc=english&f=500&key=f7401499180a0d953ce33f58127383ef...00000