Mojave Experiment goes live, doesn't fail to annoy
Update: We're hearing you guys loud and clear in comments. We'll admit, we hate senseless Microsoft / Vista bashing just as much as the next guy, and that's not what this is about. The problem here is Microsoft basically filmed itself an infomercial (or "pulled a Pizza Hut," as pointed out in comments) and is passing it off as some interesting experiment into FUD. If these users had been sent home for a week or so with a Vista machine -- or better yet, a copy of Vista to install themselves -- that'd be a whole different story, but they weren't. There was no scientific method in play, no control experiment, nothing. They were shown a 10 minute demo. That's it.
Read - The "Mojave Experiment"
Read - Windows Vista Team Blog
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
GenericWhiteGuy @ Jul 29th 2008 1:48PM
That isn't nice. I'm sure Paul is a nice guy. Unfortunately, when blogging, it is often easier to go into autopilot and rehash old jokes or just be snarky and dismissive. I know I've been guilty of the same. Just look at the rest of the posts here or on other sites. 90% of them will have the same tone for no other reason than that it is easier to write this way and because they don't want to seem like a PR hack.
Paul, next time challenge yourself a little and try praising the good things while pointing out the bad. It's difficult.
Electromodo @ Jul 29th 2008 9:13AM
"...That people heard really bad things from their friends and co-workers, but a slick 10 minute sales presentation showed them the light?..."
That hype and urban propaganda still affect most of our opinions... alas.
Kamokazi @ Jul 29th 2008 9:15AM
Hype and urban propaganda....
I thought there was a computer vendor who did this already...they really have a thing for brushed aluminum....
Brian @ Jul 29th 2008 9:20AM
Or could it be that people who used Vista found issues and didn't like it !?!?
I am one of those IT Consultants who has been hounded into re installing XP because Vista on NEW Dell machines were so poor they were affecting the business.
Pochi @ Jul 29th 2008 9:49AM
Did anybody else find that statement by the author to be really condescending? Well, I'll help you PAUL. That's not what they are saying. Mojave is here to show that this goes to show people who actually USE Vista enjoy it, and people who are told not to like it by their nerdy Linux buddies do not.
It's not about a "slick 10 minute sales presentation," it's about preconceived notions effecting their good judgement. Which it obviously did.
I am not usually one to cry "FANBOY" at Engadget, but this negative MS mentality is a little off the charts now. Give me a break.
Pochi @ Jul 29th 2008 9:57AM
Oops, little confusing... reworded...
"Mojave is here to show that people who actually USE Vista enjoy it..."
And I will still end with: give me a fucking break, PAUL.
Indie @ Jul 29th 2008 10:00AM
Paul Miller, wow... can you say biased reporting?
Metkis @ Jul 29th 2008 10:05AM
@Pochi: Yeah, you're speaking to the same blog that has the newest Apple commercials queued up in their Netflix account.
Heeeeyyyy-Ooooooooo!!!
Just kidding Engadget, I still heart you.
OneLove @ Jul 29th 2008 10:07AM
@Pochi: Keep it clean. Remember your a guest at pauls house.
fred @ Jul 29th 2008 10:13AM
"Paul Miller, wow... can you say biased reporting?"
You can say that again.
Someone wake up Ryan Block to lie...um, tell us again that engadget isnt biased.
I mean seriously:
"What are you trying to say, Microsoft? That people heard really bad things from their friends and co-workers, but a slick 10 minute sales presentation showed them the light?
Exactly why is this guy so POd? Because MS blew a big hole in the RDF the tech media has been building for the past two years?
I would be ticked off too.
If there is a real editor on staff, can they have a real writer redo this post?
OneLove @ Jul 29th 2008 10:25AM
Let me first say, I love vista!
The problem is: When vista first came out it had lots of issues so everyone (techies) jumped on the "vista sucks" bandwagon and told all their (non techie) friends to stay clear. Now that Microsoft has fixed many of the vista issues the techies have jumped off the bandwagon but forgotten to tell their non techie friends that it's ok to come out and join the social.
Now, Microsoft has to fix the damage or watch vista sales die some more. Its microsofts own fault for botching the whole vista release in the first place. Too bad they have to try to convince people to "vote for vista" with this testimonial crap.
"Mojave" is just an election campaign for vista. Vista '08! Vista for president! (XP voted against the surge)
Joshua Topolsky @ Jul 29th 2008 10:28AM
@fred -- Paul Miller is a "real editor," and it's not like Vista issues are some fantasy creation of Windows haters. He's not biased, just honest. If you prefer to accept what Microsoft's PR people tell you, however, that's your choice.
Pochi @ Jul 29th 2008 10:29AM
@OneLove
Apologies. I forget sometimes that there are young eyes falling upon Engadget's pages.
Feel free to edit that down to "stinking" whenever you get a chance, you secret Engadget moderators.
Are there Engadget moderators? I would assume not since that guy "clak" posted without being banned for so long...
Saad Rabia @ Jul 29th 2008 10:30AM
Answering that question, Paul, I'd say: Fuck Yes; friends and co-workers were BSing all that time, including the BS in this article. Stop the crap and get back to your senses. Don't let the AOL tard plans screw your logic.
OneLove @ Jul 29th 2008 10:35AM
@Pochi:I love you. :)
Pochi @ Jul 29th 2008 10:36AM
@Joshua Topolsky
Honest about what?
"...a slick 10 minute sales presentation showed them the light?"
He's taking a pot shot. It's not really a "sales presentation," and obviously, whatever you do call it, it DID show them the light. Sure the OS has problems. So does every OS. That's the reality here - that people DO take the whole Vista mass hysteria overboard and judge it before they even USE it.
The negative MS sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent really wasn't necessary. Like I said, you'd be hard pressed to find another comment of mine accusing the editorial staff of bias, but this rubbed me (and apparently a several others) the wrong way.
Metkis @ Jul 29th 2008 10:45AM
@Indie:
This is a blog, not a genuine news agency. The writers here are not bound to the same writing precepts as an official news writing and are fully allowed to let their opinions go unshackled in their articles. Now to voice against your opinion against theirs is one thing, it's fair to disagree with their opinion, but your pointing out that it is 'biased reporting' lends to the idea that you believe that is a totally outlandish situation, even given that you are reading it in a blog.
Paul Miller @ Jul 29th 2008 10:47AM
Here's the problem: anything looks good when used for 10 mins and shown off by a trained PR hack.
Sure, there's plenty to love about Vista (in fact, I've used Vista since day one on a primary machine), but most of those improvements have been clouded by considerable problems, especially out of the gate. Microsoft has certainly made great strides towards improving Vista, but this "experiment" proves absolutely nothing. A highly controlled 10 minute demo that touches on none of Vista's pain points is not an "experiment," it's an infomercial.
Daniel @ Jul 29th 2008 10:50AM
@Joshua Topolsky
Going to have to agree with the general audience here. This article was not written with a neutral tone. Microsoft had to demonstrate that Vista was a good operating system, and they had to figure out some way to get an honest response. This experiment demonstrated that quite well. I don't understand why you call this a "slick 10 minute sales demonstration".
This was a well thought out experiment. Tell people its something different. See if they like it when it doesn't have the bad reputation associated with it.
Ihar `Philips` Filipau @ Jul 29th 2008 10:49AM
> Yeah, you're speaking to the same blog that has the newest
> Apple commercials queued up in their Netflix account.
That's stupid. As if I'm back 10 years ago, when M$ had no competition and Windows was The OS.
People actually now *can* like/dislike Vista (underline matching) - precisely because there are brushed aluminum and brown/orange alternatives now.
Making fun out of pointless M$ atroturfing... Hell why not. As if people do not make fun out of Apple commercials and Linux propaganda.
Reid @ Jul 29th 2008 10:55AM
It absolutely blows my mind that people really believe that the 98% of the computing world that uses a Windows machine on a regular basis, were hoodwinked by a small band of Apple and OSS fanatics into believing Microsoft's latest product was total crap and to avoid it.
It's like believing that the downfall of the American auto industry was due to a few clever Honda and Toyota enthusiasts spreading rumors that American cars suck.
Get real, people. Almost everyone who uses computers, touches Windows on a daily basis. It's pretty hard to pull the wool over that many peoples' eyes.
Maybe, just maybe, Microsoft has a terrible track record with OSes, and consumer prejudices against them are their own damn fault, not the fault of a few hipsters with square glasses. Maybe Windows users aren't as dumb as Microsoft thinks they are, and they have spoken to trusted friends who knows far more about Windows than they do, who have tried Vista, and then switched right back. I know I for one base my avoidance of Vista on a number of Windows sysadmins I know and trust.
Also, mojaveexperiment.com website served by Apache on Linux.
nh @ Jul 29th 2008 10:58AM
Spot on Engadget. If you are shown the best features of Vista, all working smoothly, of course it will be impressive. Same with almost any OS, hell you can probably even make Windows Me look good.
Trouble is, they didn't show them that you can't install iPrint because the drivers aren't available yet, or that you have to keep clicking boxes to allow programs to do what you've just asked them to do, or that on given hardware it runs half the speed of XP, or that no, you can't uninstall Norton and stop those stupid messages.
I work in IT support, and these are the kind of things I encounter every day, but yeah, if you showed me a new OS with all the good parts of Vista and none of the bad, I too would be impressed.
OneLove @ Jul 29th 2008 11:07AM
Its soooo cold in here today.
fred @ Jul 29th 2008 11:15AM
"@fred -- Paul Miller is a "real editor,""
Id hate to see the fake ones then.
" and it's not like Vista issues are some fantasy creation of Windows haters."
Issues? You mean like the issues you get with Leopard and Linux? Wow, it seems that those issues rarely register a peep from the same people that blow their gasket over stories like this.
"He's not biased, just honest. If you prefer to accept what Microsoft's PR people tell you, however, that's your choice."
Is that what you call this BS of a posting? When I see him launch into Apple like this, then I will agree that he's not.
And I'm looking at video footage of people's real reaction. Unless you want to level the charge that the video was altered by MS, then the results speak for themselves, and the ranting of a ticked off writer should be seen for what it is.
fred @ Jul 29th 2008 11:52AM
"Here's the problem: anything looks good when used for 10 mins and shown off by a trained PR hack.
Sure, there's plenty to love about Vista (in fact, I've used Vista since day one on a primary machine), but most of those improvements have been clouded by considerable problems, especially out of the gate. Microsoft has certainly made great strides towards improving Vista, but this "experiment" proves absolutely nothing. A highly controlled 10 minute demo that touches on none of Vista's pain points is not an "experiment," it's an infomercial."
Coming from the site that live blogs Apple infomercials....um, events, thats really funny.
Ok, then have someone run a test (An unbiased source, not Engadget) to show all of the stuff in Vista, OSX, and Linux, that may potential annoy a user, and see if anyone of them will be high marks.
And don't pawn some lie on us that "oh their aren't any problems with OSX or Linux".
These people, whom have had their view of Vista created not by ACTUAL USE, but by bias nonsense on (((not news, but just a blog site))), and from people who have read this stuff, and then pass it along to them, were given a look at the real OS that they though was horrible, and they came away with a positive first impression.
This in a nutshell is what you are angry about. MS undercut the negative reporting and frankly made many of you look ridiculous in the over the top way you bashed this product for the past two years.
Jeff @ Jul 29th 2008 11:52AM
bitch bitch bitch.
Jeff @ Jul 29th 2008 12:19PM
by the way, Fed, it's easy to come away with a "positive first impression" of a product if
A) you're not actually using it as you normally would, but rather watching a trained professional use it specifically to impress you in a short period of time in a controlled environment,
and more importantly;
B) your expectations for it are about as low as they can be.
Don @ Jul 29th 2008 12:29PM
@nh
I don't believe you when you say you work in IT. If you did then you would know that Microsoft isn't responsible for writing drivers for other people's hardware, that's the responsibility of the hardware maker. Also, the reason you have to keep clicking boxes to use your applications is because programmers have gotten so used to having a system with no security that when Microsoft implemented it their applications are all in violation of it. For the longest time people screamed about how with Apple you didn't have to worry about web applications taking control of your computer... that's because they didn't give applications administration rights. Now, Microsoft corrects this and people scream about the trouble it caused. Don't like it!? Disable it!!! Or as your software creators to adhere to the new security in Vista. Vista runs half the speed of XP?!? Prove it! Oh, and your problem with Norton... that's Norton's fault, not Vista. Get your facts straight.
Blackstar @ Jul 29th 2008 12:35PM
I liked "The Philadelphia Experiment" more.
MasterCKO @ Jul 29th 2008 12:50PM
Dude. Paul.
What you don't get is that this experiment is ENTIRELY about first impressions.
MS is directly targeting the first five minutes of "Vista awareness" that people have. A lot of it today (and I've heard this a million times from people who have yet to even see the OS) is "I heard Vista is bad, terrible, etc etc, I don't think that I want to use it"
All they were doing was showing, "hey, you guys, give it five-ten minutes of your time with no preconceived notions (perpetuated by the rampant RDF in place in mass media) and you might actually like it."
What you suggest as an alternative experiment wouldn't really be appropriate, as it would reintroduce the (possible) negative Vista bias. ("I heard that Vista was bad, so it must be bad, oh look, I don't like that niggling thing, it ruins my whole experience")
That's it. I don't understand why you're so worked up about it, dude. All they want to do is change the first five minutes of people's awareness of Vista, and I think that this is a clever way to do it (by naming it something else to remove the "I heard it from a friend/the news" bias).
Vegas @ Jul 29th 2008 12:53PM
@nh
I agree with Don in saying that it is very hard to believe you are an actual IT assistant. If I were to hire an IT tech here at Lockheed to work for my company I would certainly hope they posses the basic ability to disable the UAC...or the knowledge to use AVG instead of Norton...
harveylubin @ Jul 29th 2008 1:01PM
Who's opinion do you trust? A select group of Windows users hand-picked by Microsoft in a controlled "experiment"? Do their opinions carry more weight than reviews and articles by the mainstream technical publications?
Here are just a few of the very many similar articles written about Vista by IT media professionals:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2286065,00.asp
(Note: this one is written by Microsoft loyalist John C. Dvorak, and published in PC Magazine)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2287685,00.asp
(Another article from PC Magazine)
http://www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/17992/page1/
harveylubin @ Jul 29th 2008 1:01PM
Engadget limits to 3 URLs per reply, so here are a couple more articles worth reading:
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/436
http://www.crn.com/software/199701019
Harkonian @ Jul 29th 2008 1:21PM
@Pochi : It would be interesting to see how they themed Vista so that users could not tell it was Vista. For example, I'm pretty sure the big Vista icon on the start bar would be a giveaway for most people.
jakem @ Jul 29th 2008 1:25PM
I don't really care if it was just a 10 minute demo. The fact is that there are a lot of XP users out there that are bashing Vista without ever having used it. I've met plenty of them. If Microsoft can do a little thing like this to prove that those people are silly to form opinions based on ignorance then good on them. By bashing this ad campaign you're pretty much saying that all those XP users are right to bash Vista without having any proof to back up their claims.
Engadget spends quite a bit of it's time senselessly bashing Vista (I thought that might have eased up a but with Ryan Block's departure but I see Paul has stepped in to take his place). I think this is the least that Microsoft can do to help demonstrate that Vista is a good OS but you're not having any of it. Howe dare they try and persuade users to give Vista a try.
We've now had a couple of posts today tearing down this latest campaign by Microsoft yet what was Engadget's response to all those Mac vs. PC ads that were filled with lies? Oh yeah, you guys run those ads on your websites and then provide constant free advertising for Apple in the form of reviews, posts on every minor thing that happens with Apple, iPhone stickies all over the place, etc. Is it possible that you guys have no editorial integrity when it comes to Microsoft?
Asher Madan @ Jul 29th 2008 1:49PM
@ Paul and Josh
I just read the update and would like to say that I didn't think for a second that this was some scientific trial, the point Microsoft is trying to make is that most people judge its product before even looking at it or trying it out in action. I know its only for 10 minutes but still, it's somewhat surprising that most people who gave Windows Vista a 0 out of 10 are giving Mojave a 10 out of 10 after using it. The SP1 update did fix a lot of problems. I use it on a 2.8 GHz iMac and it runs beautifully. With SP1, Vista is pretty good. It loads as quickly as Leopard and, to be honest, I like it much more, even though I adore my Mac (its hardware and casing style). This whole article is just so stupidly written and not addressing the real issue. I found the "experiment" pretty interesting though it just gives opinions of some people. And, most of the people I know who have Vista don't have any problems, especially with the new machines that are coming out with the new Intel technology.
vb @ Jul 29th 2008 1:53PM
"Also, mojaveexperiment.com website served by Apache on Linux."
And microsoft.com website is served by IIS on Windows, so what?
And Apple is using Microsoft Windows Mobile devices to sell and activate iPhones in their stores. Companies use stuff that's not made by them if it suits their purpose.
Pochi @ Jul 29th 2008 3:11PM
@Harkonian
In all honesty, it wouldn't shock me if they left it completely as it was. I bet most of the people decrying Vista haven't even seen the thing.
OneLove @ Jul 29th 2008 3:30PM
...paul takes the rest of the day off...
Quikboy @ Jul 29th 2008 3:46PM
Don't forget that chart of Vista features vs. Leopard features. The first time it was posted, it seemed like Leopard had 2X as more features, but as the comments came on arguing over what's missing, which feature really does better, or should that be included? (like should iLife stuff be included, if it's not part of the OS?), it came down with Leopard (46) and Vista (41).
http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/27/leopard-vs-vista-feature-chart-showdown/
I don't think the whole experiment thing meant to say that Vista is great right off the bat from looking at it for 10 minutes. It's saying that "Hey, try out Vista before you believe the many misconceptions that the media, the MS haters, the people who had bad configurations all along, the companies that didn't release drivers on time, and the people who bash to 'be cool'." In other words, give it a long worthwhile try before you say it sucks.
Like many have said in the past already: 2GB makes Vista run smooth, buying it off with a new computer is better than upgrading an old one, disable the parts you might find unnecessary, and check a few other things, and you're good to go.
rcast1986 @ Jul 29th 2008 5:14PM
How the hell is a 10 minute "demo" meant to convince people that an OS is better than they think any worse than a 30 second Apple spot on TV with a B-List movie star and a television actor telling us what to think??
Since when have WWDC/Apple World Expo/Etc. announcements presented their products in a full presentation noting their defects?? The iPhone 3G presentation was 20 minutes of telling us what we already knew: that 3G, GPS, et. al are popular and necessary features that vastly improve the device (stuff that should have been there in the first place). What about all the stuff it can't do?
You think at E3 developers will start saying "We've worked really hard on this game, but the 5th and 8th levels really blow"? How is this strategy of emphasizing the strengths and downplaying the weaknesses of a product ANY different than the advertising strategy of any other piece of technology, or any other kind of product for that matter?
harveylubin @ Jul 29th 2008 6:01PM
These articles published today on ZDNet and InfoWorld say it all:
The “Mojave Experiment” - Just an exercise in guided clicking or does it highlight some of the problems with Windows Vista
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2306
Windows "Mojave:" Another sign that Microsoft just doesn't get it
http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisedesktop/archives/2008/07/windows_mojave.html
MasterCKO @ Jul 29th 2008 6:31PM
@rcast1986:
Exactly.
lukas88 @ Jul 29th 2008 9:50PM
I am glad people are calling out engadget's lack of perspective on this issue, but I tend to agree with the author that we should be skeptical about the mojave experiment. There are many reasons why the results are not due just to the quality of the OS.
Having said that, I agree that Vista is a great OS. I didn't think I would like it at all when I first tried it, and it only took about 5 minutes to earn a permanent spot on my hard drive. Microsoft has the right idea about getting people to give it a chance. It is a pity that they chose to rely on the gullibility of the masses instead of a true experiment.
Vista's strengths greatly outweigh its weaknesses. File transfer still needs to be tuned up, and a few of the networking menus are ridiculous, but on the whole it is an elegant, speedy, stable, and highly functional OS. I have had zero blue screens since day one, and I put my computer through a great deal of mayhem.
OneLove @ Jul 30th 2008 12:27PM
Dear Diary, I don't think engadget readers understand who I am or what I stand for...sincerely, Paul.
harveylubin @ Jul 30th 2008 4:42PM
Some commenters keep harping on how this controlled "experiment" is changing people's opinions about Vista. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Everyone considering opting for Vista are well-aware of these facts:
1) For the past two years IT professionals have been dumping on Vista in well-respected publications like PC Magazine, Technology Review, etc.
2) This week a survey indicated "IT administrators surveyed said that they have “no plans” of deploying Vista. This number is 7% higher than the result of Kace’s November 2007 survey. The heavily promoted Service Pack 1 has not changed their opinion, with 92% of respondents stating that the update has not changed their plans for Vista deployment. 83% said that they are concerned about the compatibility of required business software".
3) Most people who have tried Vista have either downgraded to XP, or switched to an alternative OS.
All that this Mojave marketing scheme does is show just how desperate Microsoft has become. Read these articles that describe how others view the "experiment":
The “Mojave Experiment” - Just an exercise in guided clicking or does it highlight some of the problems with Windows Vista
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2306
Windows "Mojave:" Another sign that Microsoft just doesn't get it
http://weblog.infoworld.com/enterprisedesktop/archives/2008/07/windows_mojave.html
“The Mojave Experiment:” Bad Science, Bad Marketing
http://wilshipley.com/blog/2008/07/mojave-experiment-bad-science-bad.html
Compugeek @ Jul 30th 2008 11:22PM
@harveylubin
1) You forgot to mention Engadget. And isn't that the point of the "experiment" anyway? Just because someone says something doesn't mean it applies to everyone in every case.
2) Just because SP1 didn't change people's plans to deploy Vista doesn't mean that they didn't already have plans to do so. And just because people are concerned about compatibility doesn't mean that they won't choose to upgrade if their software is compatible.
3) Who made up that statistic? Most people who use Vista don't have the technological knowledge to downgrade it. Just because we're all fanboys of one type or another doesn't mean that we're the majority. For the record, I've used Vista since April '07, and it actually ran faster than XP on my computer for my purposes. (Oh no, it's too fast! I guess I should downgrade.)
The "experiment," whether scientifically accurate in any way or not, goes to show how people have been brainwashed by the media. "See for yourself. Decide for yourself." is exactly what people should do. If they like Vista, they should use it. If not, then they should consider other options. Are people criticizing that notion because they're afraid that people might actually like Vista? I see no other logical reason.
JD @ Aug 1st 2008 1:52AM
Man, this is a nice reminder of why I ditched Engadget. I like how when Microsoft does this, it's FUD. When Apple runs those ads that are often baseless, it's not. I like my tech news without the stupid biases. Report it straight up, please- I'll make my own decisions based on your accurate reporting.
Nikolaj Møller @ Jul 29th 2008 9:13AM
In your face Vista haters
Intrepid @ Jul 29th 2008 9:36AM
It's funny that engadget doesn't take that view...
But yes I agree - take that!