ViewSonic shows off a 120Hz LCD computer display
By Nilay Patel 
posted August 26th 2008 5:04AM
posted August 26th 2008 5:04AM
[Via Electronista]
posted August 26th 2008 5:04AM
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yet another day full of lcd presentations on engadget.
Burned once by ViewSonic, I will never buy again.
M
The stand look ugly as hell.
120Hz really MATTERS thats why all the 'hardcore' gamers have still CRTs, because they can pump up the physial framerate over 100Hz, and also, ViewSonic is from California!! Go America.
ViewSonic support sucks ass. It took well over a month to get my monitor back from the time they received it. I had to fax in my Proof of Purchase 3 times!!! Fucking bullshit.
Oh and I have the VX2835WM. A lot of people are having problems with the piece of shit. The viewing angle is HORRIBLE.
Gamers use CRT's because there are no fixed pixels for the most part. You can run the game at a low resolution, and it'll still look decent, compared with an LCD monitor where you need to be running the native resolution.
The human eye can't even distinguish between 120fps and 60fps, so the point of 120hz for gaming is basically moot. 120hz is great for watching DVD's or Blu-Ray discs since 120 is a multiple of 24, and thus you don't need to use any pulldown like you would with your 60hz TV. For gaming though? Meh.
Waste of money for gaming. Great if you watch a ton of movies.
Gamers use crt's because of their high refresh rate as well as perfect resolution scaling. Especially for Fast paced first person shooters, such as quake 3 arena cpma, or even counter-strike 1.6 the high refresh rates coupled with the high frame rates (over 100fps for quake ,100 constant for cs1.6) provide the best Scene Production(fluidity of frames), not just image quality. With vsync off, high refresh rates guarantee that you get a chance to process every frame of the 100 in that second and ensures there are minimal frame cuts. Enabling Vsync with high refresh rate will not only eliminate the problem of frame cutting, but also minimize the delay of waiting for the screen to refresh (60hz with vsync on will introduce a laggy feel, input lag some would say, but since more refresh would mean more updates of the screen per second, the delay is reduced until almost nothing once the refresh rate is very high)
No, that is not true the human eye can tell the difference. There is no such thing as "fps" to our eyes.
"The Human Eye perceives information continuously, we do not perceive the world through frames. You could say we perceive the external visual world through streams, and only lose it when our eyes blink." http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html
It depends on a individuals conscious ability to "perceive", which requires manual processing from the brain, the world is still streaming into our eyes. There are a few special people in the world who have the ability to accurately reproduce an image from very quick motions. Normal people can still perceive high refresh rates but may not have the cognitive ability to extract single images from a motion, but they certainly can see fluidity of motion, which is what refresh rate affects.
You can in fact distinguish 60hz and 120hz or almost any refresh rate for that matter. However, it depends on what "distinguishing means" If it means to perceive every frame individually like in a slide show then around 30hz-60hz would be quick enough to allow perceived motion. (It still depends on what source the image is from, CRT's phosphor glow creates a persistence effect in the eye so that part of an image will stay long enough for the entire frame to be drawn) Distinguishing fluidity of motion, on the other hand, is much different:
The real world around us provides "infinite" fps (really though, no such thing as fps )
All our display technologies are FAR from what real life can provide.
Rendering, Recording, and Display technologies all work upon the same principle of sampling at specific intervals of time.
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/TempRate.mspx (scroll to "Flat-panel displays have a sample-and-hold characteristic")
"All of the newer display technologies such as LCD, plasma, DLP, and so on, have essentially a sample-and-hold characteristic. When a pixel is addressed, it is loaded with a value and stays at that light output value until it is next addressed. From an image portrayal point of view, this is the wrong thing to do. The sample of the original scene is ONLY VALID FOR AN INSTANT IN TIME. After that instant, the objects in the scene will have moved to DIFFERENT places. It is not valid to try to hold the images of the objects at a fixed position until the next sample comes along that portrays the object as having instantly jumped to a completely different place.
Your eye tracking will be trying to smoothly follow the movement of the object of interest and the display will be holding it in a fixed position for the whole frame. The result will inevitably be a blurred image of the moving object."
"Leaving aside the temporal rate conversion difficulties, displays with a sample-and-hold characteristic, such as LCD and plasma, would PRODUCE BETTER MOTION PORTRAYAL if operated at rates ABOVE 60Hz. Flat panels are normally run at 60Hz, because it is PERCEIVED that this is all you need to do since there is no flicker problem. The REALITY is that a faster update rate would be beneficial in order to reduce the blurring effect associated with the sample-and-hold characteristic. Pixels with a sample-and-hold characteristic effectively extend what should have been an instantaneous sample into a constant value that lasts for a whole frame. The result of this is motion smearing. This smearing is reduced if you can update the sample and hold circuits more often with new sample values."
The problem is that real life gives us infinite fps so only by approaching infinite fps or a very very high fps can realistic perceived motion be achieved. Sure at 60 fps we can see that it's motion but compared to 120 fps, it's much less smooth.
Oh and while i'm at it, response time:
Most of the manufacture quoted response times are false, I don't feel like getting into that but the only review website that reviews monitors scientifically by measuring response times is xbitlabs.
They also measure real contrast ratios,brightness, color gamuts and backlight uniformity.
As for response time I am amazed that it can vary so differently depending on what grays are changing to what other grays.. namely somewhere around 256 different response times.. check it out..
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/19inch-12_2.html
Just to note:
I also am very glad that my laptops can be set way over 60hz. Thank you LVDS Signaling! I enjoy the smoothest video from my games.
the way laptops interface with the monitor allows manual configuration of timings unlike Desktop monitors which are already using a lcd controller that interfaces with DVI to your graphics card. Subsequently, it will not allow as much flexibility (>75hz refresh rate)
It seems that it works with most modern laptops with nvidia graphics cards, some ati if you use powerstrip
Toshiba satellite 1805-s254 xga 13.3" Trident Cyberblade xp Ai1: 94.8hz @ 1024x768
Toshiba Tecra m3 xga 14.1" geforce go 6200-6600: 100hz @ 1024x768 (more introduces occasional sync loss that causes "flickering")
Asus V6J sxga+ 15.1" geforce go 7400: 100hz @ 1400x1050 (can handle up to ~150hz but with major color distortion)
IBM thinkpad T61p nvidia quadro 570m sxga+ 14.1": 150 @ 1400x1050 (At this refresh rate, there are very very feint yellow lines on very dark colors, black etc)
google for "100 hz refresh rate v6j" first link.
this 120hz from these tv manufacturers are getting on my nerves.. i want my real refresh rate..
There be dragons there.... Ay Laddi
Go chase it! =)
This needs to be 24". Mmmm.
And speakerless.
Monitor built-in speakers is crap. You pay for a 120Hz screen and used crappy speakers....what an irony.
Seriously... who's idea was it to include the speakers?
I can't believe I wrote who's instead of whose. ug
Is it really that big of a deal? Turn them off. And maybe if your real speaker ever break, look a backup, how nice while I wait for my new ones.
Speakers cost money. Cut them out so I can see a bit of a price drop.
"1680 x 1050" so as stunning as this possibly will be, you wont get native 1080 resolution...kinda doesnt make sense eh?
1680x1050 is lower then 1080p, but with stereoscopic support and 120hz refresh, I think the non-1080p was actually a good idea, this is the kind of monitor someone who prefers higher frame rates, and if your playing in 3d, you need all the fps you can get, because speed is essentially halved.
That said you would need one monster video card setup to do stereoscopic at 1080p@120hz in newer games, and wanting to run games at the native lcd resolution is kind of a requirement if you want them to look good, so 1680x1050 is actually good for a gaming monitor, not so good for a hd tv set though, but what would be the point of watching 24/30fps blu-ray on a 120hz screen.
@adam,
the point would be correct multiple. 30fps x 4 = 120fps (perfect display of signal) or 24fps x 5 = 120fps (perfect display of signal again).
the world of 60fps lcd hurts my eyes. i still own my sony crt just for the insane refreshes i can have in it.
1000:1 contrast, clearly it's not supporting dynamic contrast, and it's probably just two old panels sandwiched or something, or the 120Hz is some PR speak and its just interpretation that makes it seem 120Hz and it isn't actually.
Quick! Somebody form a Raid party!
Need a Rogue?
no-one ever needs a rogue :P
120 hz? Awesome... now I can finally see those 120 fps I'm getting in older games like CSS.
and here was i thinking that 60Hz for TFT LCD was enough...NO! we need 120Hz! To Infinity and Beyond!!
so they finally perfected holograph technology?
Guess Lucasfilm wouldn't let them use Leia
I hope the monitor doesn't come with a real dragon living in it. I can't afford to feed another one.
That model looks oddly familiar. Hmmm...
Hahaha. :-)
That LCD's Neck looks very familiar.. hmmmnn....
I wonder where did Sammy go..
about damn time. i'm still playing cs @ 100hz on a crt, and i've been waiting a few years for this announcement.
Anyone thinking this means more frames is probably mistaken, 120hz sounds an awul lot like 2x60hz, which is an impossible refresh rate for DVI at the resolution this monitor supports. So, how do we make a 60hz signal into 120hz on the display? Oh yes, black frame insertion.
its not impossible. and a duallink dvi sinle link far exceeds the bandwith needed for 1680 x 1050@120 unique frames as far as i can recall.
I dont however believe this monitor supports it, and thats what we all want really. 120 frames per second monitors.
BFI or even more elaborate 120hz motion treatment like in lcd tvs is not something i need pc monitor.
I want 120 real unique frames, mostly for simulations, where at 250 or 300kmh , one frame step represents a lot of space.
I wouldn't trust ViewSonic. The last display I purchased from them was the VX924 - advertised 4ms response. I bought a little after it was released and a little after that they improve it by lowering 4ms to 3ms yet keeping the model number and price the same.
Feel betrayed? Yes I did but it was made worse by the monitor developing a green tint over year later, was sent a refurbished replacement which died a year after that.
ViewSonic ain't worth s*** when it comes to quality.
All that AND 3D stereoscopic display?? Holy sweet nectar of the gods!! I hope it doesn't cost an arm or a leg (or both)...
I'm hoping someone decides to come out with a true computer monitor that looks good at a size over 30". I'm not sure why they can make TVs in a larger size but not monitors. TVs as monitors don't look so hot.
Agreed. I moved recently and in the confusion I lost my vga to dvi adapter, so instead of my huge crt monitor I'm stuck using my 42" 720 plasma. Everyone in my house is jealous, but they are also idiots.
samsung: models showing products
viewsonic: dragon showing products
wow, almost useless. You're better off investing in a 120hz HDTV.
What many people don't realize is that dual link DVI doesn't even have the bandwidth to transfer 120hz..................................................
Actually, it does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface#Specifications
It even has the capacity in single link mode. Double that, and last time I checked, if you meet a requirement and then double what you have, you still meet said requirement.
dood... just look at the spec you pasted yourself
Example display modes (dual link):
* QXGA (2048 × 1536) @ 75 Hz with GTF blanking (2×170 MHz)
* HDTV (1920 × 1080) @ 85 Hz with GTF blanking (2×126 MHz)
* WQXGA (2560 × 1600) @ 60 Hz with GTF blanking (2x174 MHz) (30" Apple, Dell, Gateway, HP, NEC, Quinux, and Samsung LCDs)
* WQXGA (2560 × 1600) @ 60 Hz with CVT-RB blanking (2x135 MHz) (30" Apple, Dell, Gateway, HP, NEC, Quinux, and Samsung LCDs)
* WQUXGA (3840 × 2400) @ 33 Hz with GTF blanking (2x159 MHz)
At the res of that monitor, you're not going to get anywhere near 120hz
OMG FINALLY been waiting for this for a year.
I can has 1920x1200?
Zoglog, if single-link DVI has the bandwidth to support 1680x1050 @ 60hz (and it does), then dual-link DVI has the bandwidth to support 1680x1050 @ 120hz.
Even on the wikipedia page you pasted from, 1600x1200 @ 60hz is listed as supported by single link DVI (and 1600x1200 is more pixels than 1680x1050.)
120hz LCD's are huge step in the right direction for competitive FPS players. Very happy to see this announcement and props to Viewsonic.