RED's next move: Monstro super DSLRs
By Thomas Ricker 
posted Aug 30th 2008 3:19AM
posted Aug 30th 2008 3:19AM
Red CEO, Jim Jannard, is stirring up trouble in the RED User forums, J. Wong-style. His latest volley discusses the new Mysterium "Monstro" sensor program, the next evolution (and future free upgrade) to the Mysterium X sensor slated for RED's 5k Epic. The most interesting revelation though is this little nugget: in addition to Epic, RED plans to place Monstro into, "another camera aimed squarely at the DSLR market." He later adds, "Future cameras will shoot ultra-high resolution stills and motion..." Now, considering that the second generation, full-frame, ~25 megapixel Mysterium X is already a serious challenge to 35mm film, we can only imagine what this DSLR with a third generation RED sensor might offer. Hear that Nikon? Your D90 is just the beginning of this story. Let's just hope that televisions and monitors, already struggling to reach 4k, Quad HD can keep pace.[Thanks, Jundai]
Huh?
Talk about 'casting pearls amongts swine' you reporting is wasted on some of the less educated in here Engadget.
Here are subtitles for the hard of thinking...
Red created a revolution in the moving picture world with a camera that shoots moving images at 4K and with codecs that are highly efficient for importing in Final Cut/Avid.
Now they plan to bring that same revolution to the still camera world.
Sounds like a very exciting development!
Yeah I don't blame you for your confusion.
Engadget clearly doesn't understand the difference between digital and film...
Just because RED is going 5k, doesn't mean its going to "pose a serious challenge to 35mm film".
Film is an organic material that changes color on the microscopic level due to light absorption and reflection of the visable spectra. This organic property gives 35mm a feel and look which digital may imitate, but never perfect.
Its great that 5k resolution is around, but that just means we can edit bigger frames without quality loss. Not that we can replace 35mm film movies.
The hype is silly, and there is no mention of it being a "DSLR", he says "aimed" at that market. If you read through the entire thread Jim Jananrd posts in its more like a camcorder that can take high-quality stills at the same time. It likely won't have the "single-lens-reflex" element in the product most likely since you need the mirror locked to take videos. He says "Future cameras will shoot ultra-high resolution stills and motion... :-)". Canon and Nikon don't have to be worried, especially since we're still waiting on the Scarlet that was announced earlier and yet to be delivered.
From a CMOS design and image quality standpoint, the current dSLR makers are already ahead of the game. Also, when Red refers to "full-frame" they are referring to super 35mm which is 24.4 mm x 13.7 mm (around the size of a 1.5 crop APS-C sensor in a dSLR). A "full-frame" dSLR sensor is a much larger 24 × 36mm.
Where this new Red device may help would be in photojournalism or news. Being able to take a high-megapixel still photograph from a video. These convergent photo devices are the future, the Casio EX-F1 and D90 are just the start (the Casio can take 6MP and D90 12MP stills while shooting video). Expect companies like Canon to get into this game as well (they have both video and dSLR experience).
@Darrel
Check out the HD trailer for "Knowing" starring Nicolas Cage and tell me that doesn't look like 35mm film. "Knowing" was 100% shot on the RED camera.
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/knowing/hd/
More, I've never believed that there's such a tool of 007 or the Batman's car in this world.
But now i think i can see them within 10 years.
Yea, im very curious. A DSLR with a red dot. Why not.
as opposed to the (trademark?) Nikon red upside-down-arrow-handgrip-doohickey.
Seriously. The guys at Red are draining my saliva glands with these announcements! I've had to put plastic wrap on my keyboard to protect it from the drool. The whole not mentioning a time line, though is killing me!
http://www.nicephotomag.com
Oh shit! I accidently high-ranked this comment! Engadget, is there anyway you can change my high-rank to a low-rank?
Oh, and I forgot to request a Canon lens mount for it, or better yet, make it a rangefinder style and have it take Leica lenses... oh, and cost $100 and run on a fuel cell or nuclear power, um, and make milkshakes.
huh, and I was going to settle for a digital camera who's workflow wasn't a pain in the ass and didn't take an hour to startup.
Well, after seeing the movies resulting from Nikon's D90, the future of prosumer video looks like DSLR - because of depth of field, low light capability, lens choices, etc. It makes sense that RED is thinking along the same lines as Nikon...
If only the RED was half as good as its creators think it is.
Yes, it has high def, but when company provided operators can't operate it to correctly show filmed colours, there's something wrong with the tech. Even if I was bleeding money I wouldn't go anywhere near this product right now.
Digital cameras don't produce colors. They produce numbers that are later interpreted as colors in as flexible a way as is required. Indeed, one of the key RED innovations is their video raw format. As with stil camera raw, this provides arbitrary ability to use color profiles later in production to create whatever look is desired.
Its called the Scarlett. They are going to position it as the first "Corssover" DSLR/Motion Camera. They're going to try to fight the HVX market with it as well. got to red.com and check out the render of it. looks pretty badass so far.
as of now, red.com is DOA.
RED has a good codec. That's about it. Otherwise, it's physically just a DSLR where you can hold the shutter open. That does mean you could easily take high res stills with the same sensor. But it has the same dynamic range problems as a DSLR, the same bayer pattern color issues which limit color resolution to below 35MM, and to top it all, CMOS rolling shutter artifacts that threaten to spoil any kind of fast movement or pan.
And at least at the prices they charge, none of the latter stuff will get fixed, because RED doesn't have the money to develop their own sensor technology, they'll always be merely "in the pack" when it comes to the device that actually effects their results the most.
You have zero clue... and your ignorance is overwhelming concerning Red not having a Sensor program.
"CMOS rolling shutter artifacts that threaten to spoil any kind of fast movement or pan"
Wrong, you truly have to stress the camera with extreme shutter or off speed to produce the artifacts you say is natural to the camera. BTW, you find the same motion artifacts with other cameras as well when dealing with EXTREME movement. My Red is making me money and I am shooting the best footage of my life without the PIA factor from my aaton package or my arri bl-4 package.
I was a aaton/arri fan boy way before Red. Now, I have sold those film packages and put more money into my support package for my Red One.
I speak from experience, you just seem to be talking out of your ass.
I'm not disputing what you are saying because I don't have any experience with RED's products, but are you referring to problems with the RED ONE camera, or are you saying it's actually inherent to the "Mysterium" sensor architecture and therefore all future RED cinema projects will have the same issues?
It's inherent to virtually all CMOS sensors. So yes, their new one will have these problems, just as consumer-level HD camcorders all do also (but have far less resolution).
Still cameras are less concerned with dynamic range problems because the shutter can help control the light (more than just an aperture). Also, the shutter on a still camera completely remove any rolling shutter issues.
I don't know when these issues will be fixed, but I can tell you it won't be RED who fixes them. They'll just have to wait for their sensor vendors to correct it for them.
you have no idea what your talking about. Jim Jannard, founder of Oakley and Red is a billionaire. the sensor is thier own design. Jim jannard hired all the best people in the industry away from the other guys, like Sony and Panasonic. what they are doing is freeking amaising. Adobe is bending over backwards to integrate the r3d codec into their software, as is apple and avid. you must just like to talk about what you know nothing about.
Your bias is showing, Mr. Ricker. Why do you mention Nikon as a competitor and fail to mention Canon? I realize Nikon may currently be in the lead, but they aren't half as good as Canon.
Because the D90 can shoot HD video and the Canon's at the moment do not shoot HD. That's why the Nikon mention.
Interesting, but until and unless Red puts out a consumer camera (ie. sub-$2000) for the masses, I don't see how this revolution will take off. Can you imagine pro shooters giving up their Nikons and Canons (or, for crazy high-end, Hasselblads) for a Red?
Hasselblad is not crazy high end. Simply professional kit.
Say what you want about Red or Oakley, but Jim Jannard is a freaking genius.
I rather 3D or stereo tv over quad HD. Ok actually I want both and with neural UI, why not? the age of augmented reality can't come soon enough.
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OK to start with the person saying that . . .
"Engadget clearly doesn't understand the difference between digital and film. Just because RED is going 5k, doesn't mean its going to "pose a serious challenge to 35mm film"
Apparently you haven't been around for the last 10 years as digital photography has overtaken film photography. Are you assuming that the same will not be true for motion film? It sounds like you think that since film captures at the molecular level it has higher rez then 5K. Not - that is the whole point - at 5K we are at the same resolution and the eyes can not tell the difference.
Yes their may be a more "organic" look to film but that is more a matter of taste - and certainly in post and with new on-camera settings one can get the film feel.
As far as the reader with this comment on the Red camera . . . "CMOS rolling shutter artifacts that threaten to spoil any kind of fast movement or pan."
Have you simply looked a Red footage or looked at how it is being used in the industry. Besides have you considered the frame rates these cameras are capable of - options baby! We've all been in the stupor of the big photo and video oligarchy too long as they have continuously milk us on every technological front, so they can justify their product categories and features.
Thank god for Red - cause if the others don't get competitive - their soon dead!
Rolling shutter is a problem inherent with practically every single-sensor video camera without a global shutter. Not an easy problem to solve.
Wake me up when they make a sensor that's the size of a 4x5 negative. Then I'll be impressed.
are you still bored?
I love my red one, and cant wait for my epic.
"pose a serious challenge to 35mm film"
that's been exceeded. maybe you mean something closer to the 4x5 or 8x10?
@Darrel: Perhaps so, but the cost savings may win out. http://www.wired.com/entertainment/hollywood/magazine/16-09/ff_redcamera
Monstro?? Sounds like someone doesn't know about a certain lawsuit-happy monster.
Apart from hollywood (which is a world apart! very invasive indeed, but very much a world apart) and similar lucky parties, where even the unviable is daily done - but also where even some big filmakers have started to go digital, - going 35mm film is simply not an option for filmmakers. It has never been.
Film maker doen't mean eccentric billionaire. film maker is just someone who makes a film. Let's talk about normality, about normal people, what people does, how theyt do it, the pro and cons of their choices. That way, it doen's work. Apart from the big and untachable, of course. People, normal filmakers, professional or not, don't normally grab a 35mm cine camera to make their films. People use digital cameras, possibly HD cameras, and recently, Red cameras. The Red series of camera will expand, and more and more people will make films with Red. Hundreds of thousands, if not more, will make films with Red Scarlet
It never happened that some one wants to make a film, buys or rent a 35mm camera and kilometres of film, puts together a crew and actors and makes a film, with a big smile on his face. How many of your friends do it? It may have happened some times. But get real. It doesn't work like this, it doesn't work.
People use HD cameras, DVCPROHD, JVC, SONY, CANON, HDV cameras, and of course RED. Who cares if hollywood drunken toxies can see or appreciate the molecules of film, and love to talk for hours about that?
Film is nothing special. Film doens't work.