Japan planning its own damn space ladder

If the third time is the charm, yet you botch that attempt just like the earlier two, then what? That's the problem facing NASA and its Space Elevator Challenge, which has for three successive years failed to live up to the vision of Arthur C. Clarke. Japan isn't waiting for a fourth, announcing plans to spend $7.3 billion on its own lift to whisk passengers (and cargo) 22,000 miles aloft on composite cables. It's the cables that are the problem, as they need to be 180 times stronger than steel and obviously much, much lighter. The Japanese are focusing on carbon nanotubes, and while they will need to be engineered four times stronger than current stock before they're up to the task, their highly conductive nature means they can not only support the lift vehicle but also power it. Useful, that, because the ride up could take a couple of days or even weeks, and astronauts will need some way to recharge their PMPs.

[Jon @ Sep 24th 2008 10:03AM]

Are we seeing the beginning of the outsourcing of NASA?

[Jon Acheson @ Sep 24th 2008 10:14AM]

No, that began years ago. Both with designing the ISS for Soyuz, and with American private sector space initiatives like the X-Prize and COTS.

[LondonConsultant @ Sep 24th 2008 10:17AM]

Well, it's more likely to be sponsored by Yo! Sushi than McDonalds...

[joshladella005 @ Sep 24th 2008 11:24AM]

no, we are seeing a new theme park

[gavinovz @ Sep 24th 2008 11:50AM]

NASA is full of curptions and bad programs. It needs to be turned over to private hands.

[KarlW @ Sep 24th 2008 12:44PM]

Wow, Americans are actually voting down a post suggesting privatising something.

Thanks - now we have to go through the riders of the apocalypse and the end of days.

[no_one @ Sep 24th 2008 2:07PM]

Are we seeing....

no, what we are seeing is this:

"stairway to heaven"

[Samboini @ Sep 24th 2008 2:51PM]

$7.3 billion is a fucking drop in the ocean for what this is going to cost. I am involved in constructing a new terminal at the UK's biggest airport, and without any of the specialist engineering and research that this thing will warrant, it is going to cost the best part of £3b.

Who ever came up with that figure is a fucking moron.

[Joshua @ Sep 24th 2008 10:03AM]

I may be stupid, but I don't think the cables are the ONLY problem. What's to stop satellites from crashing into this?

[JC @ Sep 24th 2008 10:06AM]

The fact that satellites have a set orbit path, and so does this space ladder?

[broli @ Sep 24th 2008 10:10AM]

Wow, your question is quite the paradox. You proved that humans are indeed stupid by proving your stupidity thus proving me wrong....

[Some Guy @ Sep 24th 2008 10:13AM]

Not all satellites have a fixed orbit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellites#Mobile_Satellite_Systems

[Jon Acheson @ Sep 24th 2008 10:17AM]

You are correct, this is a major issue. Particularly for satellites in polar orbits.

And it's not only satellites: space elevators are also vulnerable to orbital debris and micrometeorites.

[--------- @ Sep 24th 2008 10:44AM]

There is more than just space junk to worry about, little things like weather and tides could bring the contraption crashing down. That is, if they could ever actually get it up...

I've said it before... how about a proof of concept? Someone should try and suspend a small object on a length of super strong kite string before anyone moves forward with a space elevator plan.

[ahdok @ Sep 24th 2008 11:47AM]

One of the most sensible ways to deal with a space elevator is to actually attach it to a boat (no, really.) - this because you need it to be equatorial, and a boat-mounted elevator is actually more secure, and hey, you can put it in international waters and not have it be so much of a political statement.

If you do this, then you can just sail it out of the way of satellites :)

[BigD145 @ Sep 24th 2008 12:14PM]

There's also quite a bit of floating debris in orbit. You'll need to clean much of that up as it eddies and drifts with the pull of the sun and moon..

[Matt @ Sep 24th 2008 12:32PM]

You're probably right, I mean it's common to sink millions or billions of dollars into a project without considering possible pitfalls that a 3rd grader could point out, right?

[liv @ Sep 24th 2008 1:39PM]

ever heard of geo-stationary satellites? Also there is also something called WEIGHT... how the fuck are they going to put it on a boat, Einstein? And I agree with Matt, I think this is more than just a simple project since they are willing to invest billions of dollars in it... If the elevator/ladder/thingy does shifts, it could be redressed using micro-propulsion... contra-balancing the structure...

[solu @ Sep 24th 2008 2:52PM]

@ LIV
the space elevator's cable is in tension, you say "what about weight, EINSTEIN" like you are an intelligent person mocking him, when in fact you are an idiot who doesn't know what he is talking about. A floating platform on the equator IS the best option for a space elevator. you can pump water in and out of a hull to control balast, and you have the maximum spin of the earth at the equator, which reduces the length required of the space elevators cable. I take it from your post though that you think this is actually a tower and not a tether, in which case you probably can't comprehend what im telling you.

[schmitty338 @ Sep 24th 2008 2:52PM]

@liv aka: EINSTEIN

...your comment about the boat shows your ignorance on the matter. You really think this is going to be a structure, likea building, that will have a foundation that supports the weight of the entire 22000mile elevator? No....no it is not. It will likely be positioned and weighted in such a way that the centripetal force from the spinning of the earth will keep it taught and likely the part attached to somewhere on earth will actually pull away from the ground, and not press down on it.

[Chris Anderson @ Sep 24th 2008 10:03AM]

won't this be continually bombarded by space junk and particles? I know certain regions at different orbit heights contain much more garbage than others....will it perhaps not be extending that high?

[ry @ Sep 24th 2008 10:33AM]

Correct.
In fact the radiation in the upper atmosphere (Van Allen belt) would kill any passengers on board unless they put a ridiculous amount of shielding on the cable-car-thingy. It'd be great for shifting cargo, but the humans on board would have a rough time of it until they get that bit sorted out.
See: http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn10520-space-elevators-first-floor-deadly-radiation.html

[1234321 @ Sep 24th 2008 3:02PM]

that's why they are using carbon nanotubes, its as strong are diamond (or close to it)

[Dan @ Sep 24th 2008 10:46PM]

Diamonds are hard, not strong, two different material properties.

[mabhatter @ Sep 25th 2008 12:41AM]

you're all missing that this is 250 MILES long.. that means it would be several hundred yards accross. That's more than big enough to handle all but the largest objects. If that doesn't work, it's big enough to mount frickin' lasers on!

[bob sakamano @ Sep 24th 2008 10:03AM]

so if something hits the cables... these people just float away into space? or at least are floating around in space tethered to some space station?

[John Giotta @ Sep 24th 2008 10:32AM]

Below geosync, you would fall to Earth. After, of course, float out into space. There tons of threats; weather, space debris, ionized atmosphere, days to get into orbit, then also that Earth is trying to throw off the counterweight.

[zac @ Sep 27th 2008 5:42PM]

This was my primary concern, we (humans) don't seem to have the best experience when it comes to predicting our enviornment. Are we really sure this counterbalance tethered to Earth wont affect it? In the end, even a feather could send a house of cards toppling down...

[Dreamtwister @ Sep 24th 2008 10:04AM]

(sings) "Where were you, when they build the ladder to heaven..."

[High Ranks make you sterile @ Sep 24th 2008 10:40AM]

This is a Nobunaga Hiroichi reporting rive from hayben. The great a-nation of Japan reached a-hayben today about eight o'crock Pacific Standard Time-eh. Therefore hayben is now a-decrared an official part of Japan, because we got a-here first. And now for the weather in heaben, let's go to Natsako Semu.

Todeh weather in hebon, partry croudy.

[kal326 @ Sep 24th 2008 11:14AM]

"Did it make you feel like crying?
Or did you think it was kinda gay?
Well I for one believe in the Ladder to Heaven
Ooh yeah yeah yeah, 9-11
I said 9-11 9-11 9-11 9, 9-11"

[qwert @ Sep 24th 2008 11:26AM]

I cant believe that it took so long for a southpark reference to come up!
"southpark?" was the first thing i thought when i read the title of the article

[Knives_Out @ Sep 24th 2008 2:34PM]

Baby you're all that I want ... when you're lying here in my arms
I'm finding it hard to believe ... we're in heaven

[IndiaTech @ Sep 24th 2008 6:53PM]

I hope they find Kenny...

[fh @ Sep 24th 2008 10:06AM]

Where were you... when they built the ladder to heaven?

[cesium @ Sep 24th 2008 11:41AM]

I was there, but you were 2 minutes late

[Vesh @ Sep 24th 2008 10:09AM]

Yes, and what's to keep rebels from flinging the asteroid this is anchored to out into space.

[Billy @ Sep 24th 2008 11:18AM]

The firepower of a fully armed and operational battle station!

[HunterXI @ Sep 24th 2008 12:12PM]

The same reasons that "pirates" haven't ever shot down a shuttle?

[Vesh @ Sep 24th 2008 1:32PM]

This was a poor attempt at a Red/Green/Blue Mars reference....

[Tim Spence @ Sep 24th 2008 10:09AM]

I don't get it. I think it's marvellous, but I just don't get it. Does this mean that planet Earth will have essentially have a 22,000 mile spike sticking out of it, anchored down and permanently spinning around with it, constantly getting in the way of planes, satellites, asteroids, etc?

At ground level at the equator, we have a rotation speed of about 1,000 mph. Obviously they're not going to anchor it there, but equally they're not going to put it at a pole either. Given the length of this thing, I'm no mathematician, but I can tell you the far end of this thing will be travelling at a "fair old lick". Also, once it gets far enough away from Earth's gravitational pull, surely the g-force of wanging all this stuff around at such a speed will negate the need to pull or push the goods up the "ladder". It'll be a case of trying to slow it, rather than trying to shunt it further up.

Crazy.

[y3k.nik @ Sep 24th 2008 10:32AM]

I think you are right. Once anything going up is far enough away from gravity, the centrifugal force should take over sending the elevator up.

If this ever comes into existence, even as a simulation model would be interesting to see what and how they come up with.

[Grey Acumen @ Sep 24th 2008 10:34AM]

You kinda answered your own question as, yes, it does get built along the equator, in fact it kinda has to be. Essentially, you have the thing built to a height that allows the main mass of the "ladder" to bet set upon a geostationary orbit. Rather than thinking of it as a ladder that sticks out into space and swings all over the place as the earth spins, instead think of it as a geostationary satelight that orbits exactly over one single point around the earth, but just happens to have a spike that sticks DOWN to touch the earth's surface. Once you get the center of mass of the ladder up to that geostationary orbit level, it won't matter how massive it is, as long as the center of it stays at that orbiting height, since gravity affects all objects at the same rate, regardless of mass.

I'll admit, the concept is a little difficult to move from theory into reality, what with the required tensile strength of materials, the precision of orbit required and balancing the mass to ensure a stable orbit plus regulating the energy, maintaining the food and water supply to support people, as well as protecting the top from space debris and the bottom from atmospheric conditions. It's still doable, just very tricky, but heck, we already got to the moon, we should be able to do this.

[Grey Acumen @ Sep 24th 2008 10:40AM]

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, geostationary orbit occurs at roughly 35000km, you can see the calculations over here:
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970408d.html

Do the conversion and 35000 km is roughly = to 21750 miles. Very close to the planned height of this space ladder. It's not a coincidence.

[Tim Spence @ Sep 24th 2008 10:48AM]

@ Grey Acumen

D'oh, yes - it would have to be on the equator. I should have thought about it more. And yes, I get the comparison with a geostationary satellite - after all, they're 22,000 miles up, and at that height you achieve the balance between being flung out to space and sucked back to Earth. Thanks for clearing both up in my head!

[Jason @ Sep 24th 2008 11:17AM]

Actually no, centrifugal force isn't actually a real force. It's essentially like the normal force counterpart to centripetal force.

There wouldn't be any propulsion from the spin anymore than we have here on earth. It would be normalized all the way up. Otherwise you would feel a sensation of gravity in the reverse direction of the spin that would kind of make it pretty pointless to be in space. It'd be like, "Wow, I'm in space, but there's this gross slanted gravity crap going on."

[matt merritt @ Sep 24th 2008 2:06PM]

Welcome to the wonderful world of pseudo forces. Please remain seated. It's a wild ride.

[Ron Smith @ Sep 24th 2008 10:10AM]

The Elevator challenge is not to reach for a specific goal with applications. This is not a DARPA Urban Challenge. The goal is to grow the industry and the knowledge base to create a tether which will take a long time. We are at least 100 years away from a space elevator right now.

[maveric101 @ Sep 24th 2008 12:13PM]

about 100 years ago we were just learning to fly. and with the accelerating advancement of technology, we can't even comprehend what we will be capable of in another 100 years.

[Mycroft @ Sep 24th 2008 10:11AM]

From a strategic standpoint, the U.S. must construct their own space elevator. They should siphon off a the money from the defense budget, since it is a matter of national defense.. Technical challenges remain, of course, and until those are resolved, it is anybody's guess if an elevator will even be made. But the U.S. can ill afford to lose its strategic foot hold in space.