Apple's insistence on locking down iPhone developers with a restrictive NDA has been controversial from the start, and it looks like the company's seen the light -- it's just posted up a tersely-worded letter saying that the NDA is being dropped. It's a strange little note, actually -- the first paragraph comes off as a little defensive and whiny, if you ask us -- but we're not going to complain about anything that makes developing apps easier and faster for devs. Now let's work on not capriciously
rejecting and deleting apps from the App Store, and maybe we can go back to focusing on the iPhone platform's actual merits instead of all these paperwork shenanigans -- we've got
some suggestions if you're having a hard time figuring this out on your own.
[Thanks to everyone who sent this in]
posted Oct 1st 2008 12:01PM
Yes, Symbian handsets are really faulty for allowing all developement...
Nothing new on the front though, even with this.
Flash, Firefox anyone?
I guess I don't really understand. DOES this mean that they'll be able to put Flash on the iPhone, really?
talrico,
Lifting some of the NDA only means that some devs would be able to go open source (if their app makes it), and that some people _might_ be able to publicly write docs and/or books. As a reminder NDA stands for "Non-Disclosure Agreement", so it doesn't change what you can do, only what you can say.
Uhm Copy/Paste... Are you sure no one has provided "constructive feedback" on that one?
"comes off as a little defensive and whiny"
You must be new to the world of Apple.
This is a good thing. It shows that Apple are at least listening and responding to the community's demands.
They work in secrecy, so it's good to know they are listening, not ignoring. Good precedent, let's hope it continues with some clarification on the App Store rejection policy.
Excuse my ignorance if the answer is obvious.
With all those patents that Apple has on the iPhone, how is it that so many manufacturers jumped on to the Touch Screen interface after Apple introduced the technology back in Jan 2006?
Just curious because so many of the new phones user-interfaces
are a direct rip-off of the iPhone interface.
@igo
just how did apple introduce a touchscreen/multitouch interface? it's been around for some time before apple got a hold of it.
iGO,
mostly because they didn't invent it. they improved on it, added to it.
Now, uh, where's the push notification that Apple promised?
SRSLY
I can haz AIM that doesn't teh sux?
Seriously.
Can you get a vocabulary that isn't for 4-year-olds?
For once, I think it's best that they not introduce new features and make the stuff that should "just work," work. You know, like reception, calls, 3G data, that kind of stuff. After we've got that working, then let's focus on adding this mystical "push" functionality that was supposed to come with the platform.
Honestly, lifting the NDA is the best thing apple can do for themselves right now. Developers aren't going to waste the time making an app only to have it rejected after the fact with an apple gag order on the reason and rejection to boot. This isn't how you treat developers which are going to make the value-added software for your platform, this isn't how you deliver a suite of different apps, this isn't open at all. Refusing to have some sort of interface through which developers can precertify apps (which, of itself, is depressing considering the relative openness of even WM) means that people aren't going to waste their time making things.
So the Dear Leader loosens up the leash, and it all hugs and sugar cookies?
Well gosh Fred, maybe you should learn to read. Nilay said "the first paragraph comes off as a little defensive and whiny". Does that sound like hugs and sugar cookies to you?
Oh right, I'm talking to Fred, I forgot. Logic doesn't work.
"but we're not going to complain about anything that makes developing apps easier and faster for devs. Now let's work on not capriciously rejecting and deleting apps from the App Store, and maybe we can go back to focusing on the iPhone platform's actual merits instead of all these paperwork shenanigans"
Translation:
Let's all stop this fussin and feuddin so we can get back to lovin you, Apple.
Mmmm... cookies.... *drools*
Oh, so you think Engadget should be complaining about things that make life easier for developers. Sure, that makes tons of sense in Fred-world. Remind me again, why is Engadget not allowed to post anything positive about Apple? Because you don't like it? This is positive news any way you look at it, so I'm not really sure what your problem is.
I mean, other than you being a rabid Apple hating MS kool-aid drinker.
So "positive" now includes backtracking from a position you never should have taken in the first place? Where I come from, that isn't positive, it's just correcting a mistake. Positive would be to have not made the mistake in the first place.
Aww, they deleted the last line! It read:
"Thanks to everyone who provided us *constructive* feedback in this matter. To everyone commenting at Engadget, fuck you."
Not a good headline. They are only changing some of the NDA not removing it entirely. It's not going to help people developing as much as it could, and it definitely isn't good for apps that get rejected.
Apple has went from the house that had it's lights out on Halloween to the one that answers the doors and hands out Kleenex tissues instead of candy.
Apps that get rejected had nothing to do with the NDA.
Most software companies require an NDA when they make available unannounced pre-release software to developers.
This is more industry standard now.
How does the iPhone SDK fall into the unannounced, pre-release software category?
Also, I agree about the tone of the letter. It reads like it was written by Steve after a bout of chemo.
"How does the iPhone SDK fall into the unannounced, pre-release software category?"
Generally speaking, developers get versions of the firmware before they are GA, therefore as a developer, if I get version 2.3 of the firmware tomorrow, I cannot disclose new features of that version. Microsoft does this, my company does this. It is a standard business practice. In fact, in my experience NDAs more restrictive than Apple's are standard.
Frankly I never understood why the NDA was such a big deal to developers: How does my not being able to tell people unrelated to my project about the inner working of the iPhone affect my ability to create my application? Maybe I've been in this industry for too long...
Does someone that had a big problem with the NDA care to explain what the big deal is?
A far bigger deal (to me) is the seemingly arbitrary way in which Apple rejects applications from the store. I have a couple of apps I'd like to develop but I think they might cause issues for Apple so I'm not willing to invest the time until I know that they will be allowed...
@CraigJ
Nobody was complaining about Apples initial NDA. The whole thing just snowballed when they rejected apps whos owners decided to go public about why they got rejected from Apple without any firm reasons and the fact that there is no policy set in stone regarding what constitutes a rejected app. Then when all the upset blog writing was grabbing people's attention, Apple then stated that rejection letters are subject to a NDA too. That is why there was so much drama over it.
My question is: what does Apple mean by "released software"? Are they referring to software /they/ have released (i.e. non-beta versions of the iPhone SDK), or are they referring to software that /I/ have released, i.e. I'm only allowed to talk about code for software that is approved and available for purchase on the App Store?
@Shan
Actually people are complaining about the NDA.
@CraigJ
The problem is for any new developer, not just the the iPhone, talking to other developers is how you gain knowledge. I don;t see why developers who are all under the NDA couldn't talk to one another since they all have access to the same things so nothing new would be exposed to "people who shouldn't know".
"How does my not being able to tell people unrelated to my project about the inner working of the iPhone affect my ability to create my application?"
Maybe you're lucky, maybe you're a really good developer, I dont know. If you've never ever had to ask someone for help with anything you've done then you are certainly lucky.
@fuzzy. That's why I said "... not being able to tell people unrelated to my project ..." I was not aware that the NDA excluded you from talking to other people under the same NDA.
Are you saying that in fact Developers under the NDA were excluded from talking to other developer under the same NDA? If that's true then it made zero sense for Apple to do that; nobody's documentation is that good.
Also, I pointed out that the far bigger problem was the way in which Apple decides what to allow in the App store (or not).
And, yeah, I'm good, but not that good. I use forums and talk to other devs frequently.
@ jakem
"Also, I agree about the tone of the letter. It reads like it was written by Steve after a bout of chemo."
Dude, that is just WAY over the line.
Apple will always be a protective, smug, whiny company that caters to people who like well-integrated shiny.
I'm not trying to get all defensive or anything, but people that like well integrated and shiny as opposed to what? Haphazard and lackluster? Every time I see something like that I can't help but wonder why it's looked upon as a generally 'bad thing'.
In any case, I never quite understood the reasons NDA but I could understand why people were up in arms about it. It effectively pushed the iPhone across the very fine line that seperates "well-integrated" from "totally closed". Maybe Apple has had technology stolen from them in the past, hell, it's known fact that they've done it to others (just ask the folks at Xerox)... but you can't have a mostly closed platform and then say "HEY LOOK! WE ARE BASICALLY SORTA TOTALLY OPEN FOR DEVELOPMENT!" Something about having cake and eating it too...
But then again, maybe the cake really is a lie and we all have no idea what's going on.
matt merritt , Apple takes a subtractive approach to well integrated shiny. They remove features they don't like, sometimes because they can't integrate them well, but often because it doesn't fit into their marketing plans, and often this is anti-consumer and anti development.
I'm not going to say they make bad stuff, because it's very good, but their garden-path approach makes me and many other people uncomfortable. I am very hopefully for the impact Android will have on what's available, and what people are asking for. There is an unfathomable amount of innovation ahead of us, we don't need artificial limitations.
Of course, Apple can do what they want, and I'm sure they would do a lot worse if it weren't for competitors and well spoken consumer advocates. They are really a pre-Internet company, a lot of their ways were formed in the 80s when they lost the commodity PC wars by suing Apple ][ clone makers.
Can we please stop perpetuating the whole Apple stole from Xerox thing? Apple gave Xerox shares of Apple stock to pay for visits to PARC with the express intention that Apple was using the information to develop a GUI for the Mac. Mac OS didn't even resemble Xerox's research that closely from what I've seen and read. Yes, Xerox later sued Apple, but the purpose of this suit had more to do with protecting Xerox's IP in the event that apple prevailed in their suit against Microsoft, and in any event it was dismissed.
This is all documented. Apple stealing from Xerox is no more true than Bill Gates saying that 640KB should be enough memory for anybody.
CraigJ, you may be right, but Apple is now trying to steal (or artificially limit anyway) the benefits of development. I am sure Xerox "stole" many fundamental ideas from people who wanted more than corporate players getting rich from them. viz the original dynabook and memex.
"If a thing is not diminished by being shared, it is not rightly owned if it is only owned & not shared."
I'm hardly religious, but St Augustine may have been onto something there. I am sure Apple could more than compete in an open market of ideas on their design chops.
No argument from me, my comment was strictly related to the whole Apple stole from Xerox thing.
@ matt merritt: "Something about having cake and eating it too... But then again, maybe the cake really is a lie and we all have no idea what's going on."
I like cake.
@huh: "There is an unfathomable amount of innovation ahead of us, we don't need artificial limitations."
I must disagree. Not so much about the innovation part, but more about the limitations part. While I will agree that Apple has a tendency to be fairly liberal in dishing out those artificial limitations, I believe that some limitation is necessary or else you will end up with the messy, haphazard hodgepodge - but that won't work out so well for the end user.
I suppose, you could say, that in the end it should be up to the end user whether or not they want the ability to have the hodgepodge of innovations or one set of known-to-work's and I will agree that Apple doesn't exactly give a person carte blanche in that regard but I don't necessarily think that just allowing a whole bunch of "OMGNEWSHIT" into the ecosystem is a good idea either.
LOL at the way this is wrote
"... so that others don't steal our work. It has happened before... ripped off..."
Sounds a little too bitchey :)
Sounds like a 6th grader wrote the entire letter.
If it weren't on the apple site I would assume that it is fake because it has got to be one of the most unprofessionally written items I have ever seen on a corporate site.
did they really say "ripped off" in a piece of PR?
That's pretty poor copy writing and even worse editing. Assuming it actually saw an editor's desk and it sounds like it didn't.
The first paragraph really explains how Apple can continually pull completely idiotic things like this. The mindset of planet Apple, for all to see.
I guess it's the madness that often comes with genius.
The whole iPhone release was a lesson in that. There they come out with their first phone, and it's indefinitely better than anything on the market and for years to come. On the first try! Genius. Then, they try to prevent sales as best they can by creating unheard-of exclusive contracts where they get a piece of the revenue. Which is not going to work in most places mobile phones are sold. So they just don't sell in most places for a year. Complete, and utter madness.
The NDA is just another example. As are arbitrary app store rejections. Create a fantastic SDK for a fantastic platform - then do your best to scare away developers...
Thanks for throwing us a bone Apple. :-)
What! Steve and Apple admit they are WRONG! whatever next............................
Maybe he will threaten to close down iTunes if he cant get his own way on keeping artists royalty fees low! bad luck any mug who bought an iPod or IPhone if he goes ahead. "Cool" company Apple apparently!
does this mean that companies like tom-tom can make a good gps software for the iphoine and
flash for the iphone from adobe
Android's influence on the industry is already bearing fruit. Kudos to Google.
chefgon_ign @ Oct 1st 2008 12:14PM said:
Android's influence on the industry is already bearing fruit. Kudos to Google.
Agreed!!
Only in the sense that it lags so poorly behind the Jesus Phone it doesn't ever bear thinking about.
Android FTW
pwnt.
So they drop the NDA for released software, but not for "unreleased ... features"; it's still impossible to have a conventional open-source port effort to the iPhone, as anything not yet released (i.e. still in SVN) cannot be shared back to upstream. Collaborative development is hard, too, as users can only submit patches against the latest release...
It's still pretty bad, although I think it's now possible to release iPhone apps under the GPL, and possibly (though I doubt it) to port GPLed apps. (I think that sending the ready-for-release version to Apple for approval counts as distribution; GPL says you can't distribute without making the source available, and Apple says you can't make the source available till you've distributed. Except quines, of course...)
Is this real? It's poorly worded and sounds like an IM chat between Steve and the Devs.
Well, considering it's on this page: http://developer.apple.com/iphone/program/ it would seem that it is indeed real. Frankly, not surprising either.
"We put the NDA in place because the iPhone OS includes many Apple inventions and innovations that we would like to protect, so that others don’t steal our work."
Seriously, how many times has Apple "used" ideas from developers during the entirety of their existence? I'm not referring to widgets, as those were originally a NeXT idea, but many others that many developers would attest to. In defense to their actions, they would call it "just a part of business" but now they're getting up in arms about it? Come on.
God, what bunch of whiners. First it's, "NDA? That's horrible!!!! Get rid of it." and so they do, and you're still a bunch of little backbiters calling them bitchey, etc. WTF? There's no pleasing you guys is there?
Except they obviously didn't get rid of it. The change only applies to released software. So you know that iphone app you are currently developing that you ran into a technical roadblock and you would like to seek help on? Well guess what, you can't talk about it.
A bit on the whiny side indeed, smart though more or less unavoidable move nonetheless.
For gods sake Engadget. You're misleading people.
They're not dropping it, just changing it.
Now for a question... when it says "Unreleased software and features," is this unreleased APPLE software, or is it unreleased DEVELOPER software. i.e. do you still have to abide by an NDA whilst making your software?
I believe that's referring to currently in development software (by devs, because you know Apple isn't sharing) is under NDA until either
a) The developers receive the updated agreement that says basically no NDA
or
b) Until this software currently in development is released. Thus subsequent releases will be non-NDA, but everything prior still is.
The wording is really poor, and leaves a lot up to guessing.
apple can't help themselves. the spin they apply to everything is incredible.
Good, now we should get some books and wider reference material, articles on the web, etc. about iPhone development.
Personally I am holding out for "iPhone Programming for Dummies" :p
BRING ON THE FLASHLIGHT APPS!!!!!!!!!
To quote the wise sage Artimus Lange:
"I can detract you with a nickel, and then punch you in the face!"
destract
distract?
The word you are looking for is "distract".
that quote could have been incredibly insightful. But I think the need to correct it kind of fucked that up...
I don't know if I get it right, let's say I develop an iPhone game. Can I release promotional videos or submit it to have it previewed by gaming mags and so on?
In short: No.
This only impacts software that has ALREADY been released. This does NOT include software you are currently developing, nor software that gets rejected.
For example: NOW: if you write an app and it gets rejected, you are not only forbidden from talking about that, but you can't turn your code over to the community so that everyone could benefit from all your hard work. However, if your app IS approved you can talk about it, give out your source code, etc.
BEFORE: Even if your app was accepted and published, you weren't allowed to talk about it, share code with other developers, post code samples on community sites, etc.
So maybe someone can write a "code samples" application that covers a lot of the basics, get it approved, and then release the source for that, as a way to get around the "no one can talk to anyone else" rules that are still in place.
Sorry, should clarify opening line: this only impacts software ONCE it has been released. Both old software and new applications that get approved by Apple.
How unprofessional is that..
The link titles"rejecting and deleting apps" links to NetShare coming back. Surely it would make more sense to link to an app getting deleted?
A pretty important caveat remains, in that the NDA still remains for all but released software. So App rejections are still under NDA, and developers in the process of writing their app are somewhat limited in asking for public help from other developers.
Apple really needs to just drop the NDA from everything but new/changed features in the official Apple iPhone OS. Everything else is unneccesary and harmful to the iPhone ecosystem.
This is what I thought it meant, but I didn't really understand....
Gee. It's SO much better than before >.
Far be it for me to defend Apple, but the NDA change is definitely an improvement. It does nothing for the app rejection fiasco, though.
What happened to the "Free Application" section in iTunes? Is there another way to get those results? It's not the same as the top Free Apps.
The reality is that this will do nothing to lure devs to the iphone. Apple will need to stop with their paranoid protective shenanigans if they want better apps.
For now all we're going to see are flashlight apps and countdown apps. Hey look its only 226 days until my birthday!
The pressure got higher and higher since the small green robot is getting closer and closer. http://digg.com/gadgets/iPhone_NDA_dropped_The_Unofficial_Apple_Weblog_TUAW
The pressure got higher and higher since the small green robot is getting closer and closer.
http://digg.com/gadgets/iPhone_NDA_dropped_The_Unofficial_Apple_Weblog_TUAW
What's so hard to understand, people? The NDA applies to *Apple's* iPhone development environment, not the code the developer's write. For instance, iPhone software 2.1 is now released. Under the new regime developers will be able to discuss the methods they used to write and optimize their code for 2.1. iPhone software 2.2 is not released, although it is available to developers. The NDA is still in effect and developers are not free to discuss programming methods using it. This is still a good thing as it's unlikely the bulk of the development environment will change very much between releases.
Exactly - it has nothing to do with an app you are developing - you are free to discuss and release code that you are developing on a released version of the SDK. As it stands today, that means v2.1 of the iPhone OS / SDK.
The NDA is still in effect for beta versions of Apples SDKs... Largely inline with most other vendor's beta products...
I thought Engadget wrote the note as a spoof. Wow Apple. Wow.
All this does is allow developers the right to self promote there APP after its been released on the App store. You can make a website and talk about it outside of the APP store. This does nothing GREAT to further develop APPS since it only allows the developers to SELF PROMOTE their apps..
To bad most wont speak openly about the development of their APP in fear of clones being created and taking away from their revenue.
Hopefully iam wrong otherwise APPLE continues to be CLOSED MINDED to development other then their own creations or the creations THEY CHOOSE TO STEAL...Who said that!
"Thanks to everyone who provided us constructive feedback on this matter"
As for those who provided whiny feedback and complains, to hell with them.
I work under NDAs for software projects all the time. NDAs are common practice within the industry, not just Apple!
You are placed under NDA when developing a consumer oriented program with your own money? That's a shitty deal you've got going there.
Capricious. Good word. And well done Apple.
Flash is imminent....
Apple looks like paranoid and senile John McCain protecting his idiot running mate Sarah Palin from the press.
Defensive and whiny huh? That covers most of the writers at engadget .....
what does this mean now ? Can garmin and tom tom release their gps apps now ? If yes then GREAT!!
The power of the media can shake things up in anyone's intestines and it doesn't matter how fat your belly and belly bellys are .... this is a pure prime example....
Figured, I finally decided to JB my phone (which is awesome btw) and they might finally be releasing really good apps soon now the NDA is gone.
That statement was very poorly written to the point of me questioning its validity. What's the possibility that Apple.com was hacked?
I find it hard to believe that this got past all of the executive team. Heck, the last sentence in the first full paragraph RESTATES the first sentence in the paragraph!
It's also extremely vague about whether it's talking about Apple's iPhone software or developers applications. I think it's the former.
Something's rotten in the city of Cupertino.
Wow, thanks Apple for dropping a contract restrictions that your lawyers told you that you probably couldn't enforce anyway. Good show!
Ahhh Android hard at work!
About time. The cult of secrecy about all matters Apple Inc. has not only hampered its entry into the enterprise, but has made Jobs look foolish (and he isn't) especially now, when Apple needs to respond to changing economic conditions. A few less "surprise" product intros, lower margins and less condescension to its user base would be nice followups to this press release. And this is from someone who _likes_ and buys $100K of Apple products annually.
Looks like somebody got scared of Android openness.
Awww isn't that nice, they have finally seen the light. and just a few weeks before the G1 comes out.
The folks at APPLE is rattled by the G1 that they have to drop their NDA! That's funny!