Let the hive mind of Engadget get that for you.
"As someone who doesn't reside in the USA, I was wondering what would be the best way to get internet for my computer in the US for a couple of weeks? If it were Europe I know I'd look for some prepaid data. Is there anything similar offered by American carriers? A MiFi or a data SIM that I can tether from would work, but I'm trying to maintain a tight budget. Help!"
Strike another blow against Tesla. This just demonstrates one more reason how infantile electric cars are and WHY they are not prolific. People need to stop slamming the major car companies and looking for conspiracies to explain why we aren't all driving electric cars. Yes, I do believe it's the direction to go but battery technology is not up to par. Electric is not a panacea for all our transportation problems.
The facts are out there if you care to listen.
Wow. I had no idea there were people out there who hated electric cars as much as you do.
dude, the electric car has been around for years. If the government and auto manufacturers spent 1/100th of the resources devoted to Big Oil on alternative cars, we'd have 'em in a week. The limitation is not technology, it's money. If you disagree that, you're either a corporate slug or an idiot.
Where did I hate? I'm tired of people insisting that we should be already in electric cars, how they were made 100 years ago, how there is a conspiracy between oil companies and the auto companies, how the Volt is a POS but Tesla is brilliant even though the goddamned thing costs $120,000 and they have produced nary a car...
Electric cars are part of a short term answer and perhaps will become more prolific as the technology catches up. The one big thing holding up progress is batteries. Batteries are heavy, expensive and costly.
What I hate is the ignorance I keep reading on the subject. Go back and read what I said.
@happy_penguin:
I did go back and read your first comment and I still disagree.
Your username is awfully misleading; you seem to be an unhappy penguin.
"bandigolo @ Oct 16th 2008 12:11PM
dude, the electric car has been around for years. If the government and auto manufacturers spent 1/100th of the resources devoted to Big Oil on alternative cars, we'd have 'em in a week. The limitation is not technology, it's money. If you disagree that, you're either a corporate slug or an idiot."
Bullshit bullshit bullshit. The reason we use oil is because it's cheap. Even at $4/gallon gas is cheap. Where did you get this 1/100th number from? Have them in a week? Everyone knows the electric car has been around for years, more than a century... but the viability in the face of cheap oil has just not been there. People want real cars with real room in them. The only reason people drive tiny econoboxes is because they have to.
I hate to stoop to your level so I'm not going to call you an idiot.
@happy_penguin:
Crude oil/gasoline has to remain at a high cost because if it ever fell, people would lose interest in alternative energies. That would strike disaster for those that invested heavily in said alternative energies.
My five-speed Pontiac Vibe is a real car with real room and it's one of the most fuel efficient vehicles GM (read: Toyota) has every built. Does it use an exotic drivetrain? No, it runs on gasoline. Did I have the choice to purchase a larger vehicle? Of course, but I didn't; I don't want to spend enormous amounts of money on what you call a "real" car.
Electric cars are one of the answers to our energy issue. There are many other things that can be done to help, but electric cars a definitely a step in the right direction.
Yeah, let's keep using gasoline. Combustion engines are the wave of the future. In 100 more years maybe we'll get 21% efficiency out of them!
"Happy Penguin": The most ironic username
Agreed. The eviro freeks think if they have enough will power electric cars will be a reality but they are trying to fight physics.
You should also mention the price of the car is up to $109k some $10k more than the origional price and they just mentioned a push back of the "$60k" car I don't think is possible unless it has very bad performance.
I mock this thing yet again.
We don't have 100 years worth of oil. Aw, too bad.
Happy_penguin has a pint. Electric motors have been around since the 1800's. There are other factors that have to happen before it become viable for mainstream use. First is battery technology. Try taking a Tesla on a cross country trip. Not gonna happen. The tech is improving but it is not there yet. Second is infrastructure. Our current power grid would come to a screaming halt if we all went electric. We need to upgrade the whole country's power grid and invent either a battery that can store a whole lot more energy or be able to be charged much faster. Plus, while the car itself would have no emissions, the power it uses has to come from somewhere, be it coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, solar... as of right now the US uses coal, oil and natural gas for about 70% of its energy needs.
@PixelFactory:
True, the electricity would come from power plants that still use fossil fuels and such, but it's easier to regulate emissions at a single source (a power plant) than a million little sources (vehicles).
"michas_pi @ Oct 16th 2008 12:31PM
@happy_penguin:
Crude oil/gasoline has to remain at a high cost because if it ever fell, people would lose interest in alternative energies. That would strike disaster for those that invested heavily in said alternative energies."
I have no argument with that. I believe it goes hand in hand with what I'm saying.
"My five-speed Pontiac Vibe is a real car with real room and it's one of the most fuel efficient vehicles GM (read: Toyota) has every built. Does it use an exotic drivetrain? No, it runs on gasoline. Did I have the choice to purchase a larger vehicle? Of course, but I didn't; I don't want to spend enormous amounts of money on what you call a "real" car."
I agree, the Vibe is one good answer from current technology and it's a fine car. It still isn't the size that all people want. That's why there are choices. And, what I call a "real" car is apparently not what you think. I believe the Vibe is a real car. But the Vibe is not built by Toyota, it's built by NUMMI which is a joint venture between General Motors and Toyota.
http://www.nummi.com/
"Electric cars are one of the answers to our energy issue. There are many other things that can be done to help, but electric cars a definitely a step in the right direction."
I agree 100%. Electric cars may become ONE answer in the short term and may be a step in the right direction. But again they are not a panacea. There is no magic in electricity and you can not change the laws of physics. No matter what you do you are going to give up something and people aren't always willing to do that.
What I'm tired of is the conspiracy theories and the false science from armchair engineers who insist that it's so easy to just replace what we already have. People need to stop asking for magic from the automobile companies. They're not alchemists.
@happy_penguin:
Oh, I know that NUMMI in good 'ole Fresno built my car. I thought the way I put GM and Toyota in the same sentence would hint at that, but I guess not. No matter, though.
I think the people that are very vocal about a sudden shift in infrastructure are a sign that something needs to be done and done quickly, but carefully and in a non-partisan way.
Why all the hate towards the happy_penguin? He's only making a few valid points that most people overlook (including most posters on this thread):
1. It will take longer than 1 week (month, year, 10years, whatever) to develop electric vehicles that will fill everyone's need. Real engineering doesn't work that way and there are significant hurdles, particularly in battery technology, that need to be overcome.
2. We drive gas powered cars because gas is cheap. From an economic standpoint if car companies ditched their combustion development and when full bore at developing electrical cars they couldn't survive. Like happy said, there aren't enough real cars (not big cars, but cars in each category that fill both wants AND needs) at price points people can afford where they can survive as a big time car manufacturer.
3. No where does Mr. Penguin say that he is happy with this situation. He doesn't say he is pulling for big oil like so many of you have assumed. He's just a happy penguin who is upset with all the mis-information people are spewing out. He doesn't insinuate anywhere that he wants to see electric cars fail. I'm sure he agrees with me that he'd like to see small cheap batteries that can store enough power to drive the engines for all types of road vehicles for long distances. It just not as easy as you think. The internal combustion engine is a solid, mature technology. Electric vehicles just aren't there yet.
They're doing a lot already and doing about all they can do given the circumstances which include current scientific knowledge and cost. Here's an article (from last year) which I believe demonstrates where we stand and why it is all so difficult.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9803819-7.html
Even this oil executive from Chevron, Don Paul, CTO, agrees that oil consumption is a problem:
"And we're consuming a lot of fuel: about 3 billion gallons a day worldwide, or roughly a half-gallon for every person on the planet. By 2012, the human race will have consumed 1.5 trillion barrels, Paul said in a hallway conversation. "
Of particular interest to me and why I keep pounding the issue:
"Electric will also come, but batteries need work. "Even the best batteries have 1/10th of the energy density of gasoline," he said. (Others, such as Nobel-winning chemist Richard Smalley, have pointed out how there's no easy alternative when it comes to energy density.)"
@happy_penguin:
Thank you for the article. I have been spreading the word about oil sands for a long time now. We need to get at this oil somehow.
I think the upcoming Chevy Volt is a slight, but necessary, step in the right direction. What do you think about the Volt and GM's overall direction in this?
What do I think?
The Volt will do something that the Prius does not do: It puts an entirely electric drivetrain on the road. If the estimates are correct and I hope they are, you will be able to charge it at home and drive up to 40 miles on that charge. It will cost about $40,000 which is a helluva lot cheaper than a Tesla. It will do one important thing that the Tesla will never do and that's take four people on a trip about as long as they want to go. That's because it has gasoline backup. You will be able to continue to drive even across the country if you desire.
When hydrogen becomes a viable, readily available power source it will be a much simpler matter of exchanging the gasoline/E85 engine out for a hydrogen fuel cell. Hell, if something magic happens and solar cells are suddenly 1,000 % more efficient they could simply slap cells on the roof. The advantages to the design are numerous. General Motors is doing this the right way from a standpoint of available technology and available fuel sources for today and in the future. Watch as the rest of the auto companies follow suit. They may even do it better.
It still will take time for the Volt concept to proliferate because that's a lot of money for a car which won't have the kind of power and room that people really want. But as fuel prices rise, people will be adjusting what they "want" for what they must have. Now it's a matter of execution which is something that General Motors has often and rightfully been berated for in the past. They need to get this car out as soon as possible.
yeah, OK so maybe "corporate slug or an idiot" was a little harsh. But I still think you are way off with your original comment, especially the "people need to stop slamming the major car companies and looking for conspiracies [...] I do believe it's the direction to go but battery technology is not up to par" part.
Obviously I was exaggerating with 1 week and totally made up the 1/100th figure, but really I could have said "last year" or "2002" instead of "1 week." The point is that alternative (I said alternative, not electric) vehicles would already be here in full force if the auto manufacturers (a) weren't in bed with Big Oil, (b) gave a shit about the environment, and (c) stopped recreating old technology in new packages in an effort to lazily chase low-hanging $fruit$). Doesn't Ford or GM realize that they are tanking right now??? Doesn't Ford or GM realize that if they could simply beat foreign car manufacturers to the alternative-fuel finish line that they would once again reign supreme and regain the trust/admiration of U.S. citizens??? Yet both companies for years have written-off and disbanded various alternative fuel projects. Only now, with the economy in the shit, gas at outrageous prices, and American car manufacturers near bankruptcy have we seen any movement whatsoever.
The government also plays a HUGE role in this for the following reasons:
(a) our dependency on foreign oil has made us slaves to the most volatile place on earth, a place Americans should have no reason to ever visit much less occupy. This dependency has cost us trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and facilitated many of the anti-American regimes that we fight against today. Any rational government would invest thoroughly in alternatives to find ways to get the hell out of there and never look back. We have not. Why? You be the judge.
(b) America spends $125Billion on gasoline & oil combined each year, over $100B of it from the Middle East. Meanwhile, the Dept. of Energy gets $16B per year, making it one of the least funded major federal programs in the nation. Moreover, the Dept. of Energy itself has not been nearly progressive enough in the search for better solutions.
(c) America has developed non-fossil-fuel ways to efficiently power just about every imaginable device and vehicle, yet consumer cars are not prevalent. Must be the battery technology? Huh? I refuse to believe that. And even if it's true, see (b) above for the reason why.
(d) Hey Washington, how about some stricter taxes/environmental regs. on Big Oil? Put some money back in the economy and clean up our air, land, and lakes? What's that? Big Oil owns Congress? Oh, right.
That's my 2 cents. I suppose the penguin and I will have to agree to disagree on this.
Chrysler, Ford and General Motors have had alternative energy vehicle platforms in research and development for years. Some of these vehicles are running on the roads right now being driven by independent testers. But it all comes back to one glaring fact: It costs a lot of money to convert to these alternatives.
Whether you like it or not, the government is not going to hand these things off to you and neither are the auto companies. YOU will have to pay for it, and gasoline is still cheap. It is a free market economy.
Chrysler, Ford and General Motors are all too aware that they are in serious financial trouble. Guess what? The entire world is in serious financial trouble! Even Toyota is hurting right now. Beating the foreign manufacturers is tricky because it's a matter of matching product with demand. The logistics are more complicated than simply being first. This was what really killed the electric car, not a conspiracy by GM and the oil companies. I hope electric car 2.0 (Volt) is the right car at the right time. I believe it is.
Our dependency on foreign oil is bad. I agree with that. But it's a function of cost. That's it. No conspiracy. The cost of the alternative fuels, the cost of the needed change of infrastructure to support these alternatives, etc. Every alternative out there is going to cost you more one way or another. But as oil prices rise, so does our interest in alternatives.
The biggest problem with what you're saying is that you already admit that you exaggerated information. Okay, fine. We all shoot our mouths from time to time. And you aren't wrong for asking the questions you ask. But I submit to you that if you don't have facts to back up the conspiracy theories you're wasting energy of your own, and that serves little purpose in the quest for solving problems.
"slaves to the most volatile place on earth"
1. Less than 20% of our oil comes from the Middle East. Maybe you were referring to Venezuela? Even lower percent. Our main importers are Mexico and Canada. Mexico is not perfect but it's less volatile than, say, the gas escaping from your brain.
2. We are not "slaves" to anyone. You have no idea what slavery even is if you say that. Try to use a tiny measure of realism when you write. Exaggerating everything by 1,000 times just makes you look like a madman, which is probably fair.
"a place no one should ever visit"
1. I'll add xenophobia to your diagnosis.
2. There are so many incredible historic sights in the Middle East. Everyone should see them.
"This dependency has cost us trillions of dollars"
They do SELL the oil. They do not give it away. It might not be neighborly but it's called REAL LIFE. Try it.
"thousands of lives"
1. 60,000 people die in US auto accidents each year. That's about 70 years of war in Iraq.
2. How many lives are saved EACH DAY by gasoline-powered ambulances? Or helicopters? I bet it's more than the total US death count in the Iraq war. Sure, make an ambulance fleet electric, then never go more than 20 miles from a hospital. Great life.
"and facilitated many of the anti-American regimes that we fight against today"
1. We;'re fighting the Taliban and some scraps of Al-Queda. Iran by proxy. The Taliban is funded by heroin sales, Al-Queda is funded by private donation, and Iran is funded by oil. So you're already down to 33 percent.
2. Iran has no problem selling their oil to someone else. If we don't buy it, someone else will. They will get their oil money, as Saddam proved with the UN Oil-for-Food scandal. Oil is not sold by country, it's sold on a world market which doesn't discriminate between crude from Texas and crude from Tehran.
3. Reality is such an irritant.
"Any rational government would invest thoroughly in alternatives to find ways to get the hell out of there"
1. Is it our GOVERNMENT which purchases Middle-East oil? No, dipshit (fully warranted at this point). It's private, multinational companies. If you don't want their product, walk to work. No government is making you buy gasoline, it is not a political or legal requirement. We buy it from private businesses because it WORKS SO WELL.
2. Why is it the Government's job to save us from a product we love? Why must you rob every American to fund your private, misguided agenda? Battery cars will come when batteries work better, not before. No "Manhattan Project" recap can solve this huge, general, vague problem.
"America spends $125Billion on gasoline & oil combined each year, over $100B of it from the Middle East. "
1. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Your total expense might be right but your Middle East percentage is comedic. You will always be "right" if you lie.
2. What should we spend this money on? Earplugs and dark glasses so we don't have to read or hear you? We spend this money because it's the cheapest form of portable energy by a factor of at least 4. It's the best possible use of this energy budget.
3. We do not have a Central Planning Committee here in the US (yet). We each buy what we choose to buy. You want to buy hay for your horse? We're NOT SLAVES, we're free. Buy hay. I'm buying gasoline because it WORKS SO WELL. I am not asking anyone else to conform to my agenda. They can change when they choose to. One at a time, not as slaves to the Politburo.
" the Dept. of Energy gets $16B per year, making it one of the least funded major federal programs in the nation."
1. So you're saying that 10% of our total fuel expenditures are used to pay the DOE? And that's underfunded? That's a nice, solid R&D budget percentage, about a 10:1 ratio.
2. See above comments on blaming the government for everything you choose to do, on being a slave versus being free. You are choosing slavery with every one of these sentences. "SAVE ME UNCLE SAM! I AM HELPLESS! USE MY NEIGHBOR'S MONEY TO SAVE ME!"
"America has developed non-fossil-fuel ways to efficiently power just about every imaginable device and vehicle"
1. Are you referring to bicycles when you say "every imaginable vehicle"? Because i can imagine airplanes, boats, trucks and cars are about 99.9 percent of our vehicles and they run on gasoline because it WORKS SO WELL.
2. Okay, here is where I quit. You are declaring a fantasy to be reality. You really should notify your patent attorney about your technological breakthroughs. At worst, you should build one of these secret vehicles.
Like everyone, I would LOVE To own a plug-in car. But it has to be a functional car, not a golf-cart with a big gear ratio and good styling. Battery charge density doubles about every 10 years. We need a factor of four improvement. That means workable electric cars are 20 years away.
Now shut up.
I think we could definitely make electric or hydrogen cars work if we had to. Like, if gas spiked to $25 a gallon and then ended up stabilizing at $15 then we would probably see some alternative fuel cars within 5 years that were practical. Like penguin and others have said, oil is just too cheap, too easy, too convenient and there is no reason to stop using it. For the average American to go out and buy a $60k electric car doesn't make sense. $60,000 buys 15,000 gallons of gas at $4 per gallon (more expensive than it actually costs now) and in my cavalier z24 that nets me approx. 375,000 miles of use. Even for my mother, who drives over 100k miles per year due to her job that would still be at least 3 years of gas paid for. For myself, which i only drive maybe 20k a year that would last me almost 19 years at my current rate. The point is, as others have said, gas is cheap, gas is cheap, gas is cheap and people of a free world do not spend extra money when a cheaper alternative is available.
LarryLarryLarry @ Oct 17th 2008 7:09AM
*long post*
I don't know if I would have put it quite that way. Perhaps a bit more diplomatically? :D But your points are good. Until people understand the logistics of the entire picture they'll be hopelessly "slaves" to the conspiracy theories and conjecture.
I'm pulling for alternative energy. I'm pulling for electric cars. But we have to be realistic. The technologies come as they become viable and affordable.