Apple's Greg Joswiak touts iPod touch as the future of handheld gaming

We speculated in our review of the new iPod touch that Apple had designs on more than just consumption of music and video, and now an interview with company VP of iPod and iPhone product marketing Greg Joswiak all but confirms that sights are set on the gaming market. In a conversation with T3, Joswiak boasts that the devices are breaking through as a viable alternative to established handhelds (such as the PSP or DS) due mostly in part to competitive software pricing and the company's content delivery system. While much of the interview focuses on iPod sales figures, it does delve into more detailed comparisons of platforms, with Joswiak stating, "The 3D graphic power here [iPod touch] is significantly greater than what you have here [picks up Nintendo DS]. So this allows people to do significantly higher quality games." While it's not unusual to hear Apple's honchos hyping their products like they just skipped across some water to heal a few lepers, it is a new trend to see the company aggressively going after gaming platform mainstays so directly. With Sony and Nintendo just getting up to speed on non-traditional content delivery, Apple may find an edge come holiday season with casual gamers -- the real question is whether the hardcore will bite.

[Via Eurogamer; Thanks, Zach M.]

[Jon Acheson @ Nov 12th 2008 10:16AM]

Apple marketer touts Apple product as the future of gaming. Snickers at 11.

[Flashpoint @ Nov 12th 2008 10:32AM]

The PSP and the DS offer what people expect out of portable gaming.
thus far, there has been no reliable, energy efficient crossover between gaming/digital audio and telephone service.

I doubt a nintendo handheld will ever have a telephone service and I doubt it will ever have a convienient digital audio playback.

The PSP has everything accept a telephone service, but it does have skype which helps its case. If they could put in a GSM antennae, a SSD drive for games ( no more UMD) and a sim card where the memory stick goes, it would make a great all around portable.

As for the iPhone - there are numerous reasons why it sucks for portable gaming and in its current form I doubt it will ever improve.

[the tif @ Nov 12th 2008 10:41AM]

Beat me to it. Well played sir.

[dagamer34 @ Nov 12th 2008 10:45AM]

@Flashpoint

Such a combined device will never happen because you'll drain the battery a ton from playing games and have nothing left to actually make a phone call. You'll be charging your iPhone all the time! That's why Apple hasn't advertised gaming on the iPhone but instead the iPod Touch, you wouldn't want customers to wise up that the iPhone 3G's battery can't hold up anywhere nearly as long as the PSP and DS can.

Some things really should be kept separate. The iPhone can be good at short 10-20 minute games, but anything longer than that demands that your battery won't suffer because of it.

[Shadow08 @ Nov 12th 2008 4:14PM]

Apple needs to get off its high horse. The iPod touch is NOT a gaming platform. It's an IPOD, designed primarily with MUSIC in mind (and maybe a phone because its practically an iPhone).
The sad part is people will believe this is true because Apple says so.

[Quix @ Nov 12th 2008 11:40AM]

Apparently some of you haven't played any games on an iPhone or iPod Touch. Try Fieldrunners. Then imagine a version of Starcraft for iPhone/iPod Touch. There is a LOT of potential for gaming on this platform.

@ Jon Acheson: I remember a lot of people snickering about the Wii when it was first announced. How did that turn out?

[Mr. Picklesworth @ Nov 12th 2008 12:36PM]

"I remember a lot of people snickering about the Wii when it was first announced. How did that turn out?"

Not very well actually, Quix. The Wii has always relied on big third party developers growing imaginations -- a worthy gamble. However, as many predicted, Hell has not frozen over so the Wii remains doomed. Snickers remain. It may be successful at business, but the thing remains unsuccessful at winning hearts.

With that in mind, the iPod has a similar issue as a gaming platform. How do you make an interesting, deep game with a finger-only touch screen and an accelerometer? The tiny developers have a chance here because they aren't locked in to certain paths by business and generally only succeed if they have a good product. (Marketing doesn't save them). With Apple's stuff, they have a chance, but with Nintendo's and Sony's they do not (outside of homebrew). It is relatively inexpensive to get the development kit for the iPod Touch (although it would be nice if they got it running on Linux, at least, which shares a lot in common with said development kit and doesn't need a $1000+ box). A developer can easily get his work published and sold for a price that works for him. (It doesn't have to be $40 to account for physical presence).

However, not every developer wants to own a Mac. We all know that exposure to their built in reality distortion fields results in irriversible personality defects.

Nintendo, however, looks completely lost. They may have won a lot of cash, but cash does not win my heart. (Not that it matters to them).
Sony seems to have a nice approach to online distribution and small developers (correct me if wrong), so they stand a chance here and I look forward to them kicking Apple's ass. All they need is a hell of a lot of marketing for said development platform. Perhaps they can one-up Apple by having mortals not only /care/ about the thing, but actually know what it is.

[Rudiger @ Nov 12th 2008 12:39PM]

WTF? FlashPoint is highly ranked?

If this is Bizarro world, I don't doubt that the iPhone might be a good gaming device.

Depends on the games, really. As of yet, they're a shit.

[Quix @ Nov 12th 2008 12:57PM]

"It may be successful at business, but the thing remains unsuccessful at winning hearts." - Mr. Picklesworth

Are you SERIOUS??? Wow, talk about a Reality Distortion Field. Perhaps you need to step out of your LAN party gaming circles and step out into the real world once in awhile. Almost everyone I know either owns a Wii or wants one. Badly. Sounds like Nintendo is "winning hearts" just fine. Meanwhile, Sony and MS continue to bleed red ink with their console endeavors.

There is a serious disconnect between "hardcore gamers" (which I assume you consider yourself) and the REAL world, where most people don't care about high-def blood splatter and 30-button controllers, and companies must actually turn a profit to survive.

Let's talk again in a year and see how the whole Nintendo and Apple gaming thing has gone, hmm? In the meantime, all the anti-Nintendo and Apple ranting is just hot air from the usual suspects.

[allislost @ Nov 12th 2008 1:21PM]

I admit that there is potential in the IPhone and IPodTouch but it's very narrow at that. Click and Wait games( like Fieldrunners) will be very popular but anything requiring low-latency input will not work.

[Jon Acheson @ Nov 12th 2008 1:53PM]

Quix: I don't remember a lot of snickering at the Wii, at least not when it was still named the Revolution. What I remember was a lot of intense interest at the possibilities of the control scheme.

I remember a lot of people snickering at the N-Gage though.

The iPod Touch may be a nifty media player/PDA, but it is up against some serious competition, and positioning it as a game device doesn't play to Apple's strengths. Plus, in my experience, accelerometers and touch screens are both pretty terrible as general-purpose video game controllers. And where are the games? Does it have better games than the N-Gage?

[Quix @ Nov 12th 2008 2:33PM]

"I don't remember a lot of snickering at the Wii"

You must not have been reading the same websites/blogs I was at the time, because the Wii was almost universally derided and mocked. Still is, actually, despite the fact that it is crushing the PS3 and the Xbox 360 (which, BTW, had a full year head start).

Regarding games on the iPhone/iPod: I was dubious at first myself. And the offerings at the moment are pretty weak. But after playing Fieldrunners, I suddenly saw huge potential. The upcoming game Rolando looks awesome. I'm sure there is other stuff in the works by other developers that will blow us away. And a MMORPG-type game could be huge on the device, if properly imagined and designed for the screen size and control scheme. Imagine being able to play a little WOW on the train on a pocket device. To not see the potential is to be horrible shortsighted.

Bottom line: don't dismiss Apple because of the unconventional control scheme on their devices. You can't really judge the future based on what you see today. Buttons? Who cares? People dissed the "gimmicky" controls of the Wii (and the standard-def graphics), and now they look like fools.

Just sayin'...

[balls @ Nov 12th 2008 2:37PM]

@Quix:

There was a lot of snickering at the Wii, when the name was annoucned. Then Nintendo demonstrated the Wii, and everyone wanted one.

The Iphone/Ipod has been out, and the people that are interested in the device, have gotten a chance to try it out.

It might be the best platform for casual mobile gaming, but it's limited in what it offers the hardcore segment.

As for the Wii vs 360 and PS3, ask anyone who owns at least two of the consoles which ones they get more use out of.

The Wii is a gimmick with only a few titles that are worth playing.

The PS3 and 360 both have better quality titles.

[allislost @ Nov 12th 2008 7:25PM]

By "low-latency input" i mean buttons for action games and... you know what, a lot of other people have said this, so I'll just stop and I'll just go and high-rank them.

[SimbaDogg @ Nov 13th 2008 12:47AM]

seriously...in terms of popularity and overall success, i would probably liken the iphone/touch games to the wonderful games that were on game gear. other than sonic...well, dude...uhhh...there you have it. wont be good for anything other than pinball, maze and other tilt games if you ask me.

[Neil @ Nov 12th 2008 10:17AM]

Not all games work well without physical buttons, but most games can work well without a touchscreen....so for me I think the DS and PSP are safe. Though casual gamers will more than likely be happy with the Ipod Touch as a gaming device.

[From My Cube @ Nov 12th 2008 10:23AM]

agreed, its really anoying when games using only the accelaromitor(sp?) for movement. Having to hold it horizontal to the ground is a pain in the ass when your flying

[SteveJ @ Nov 12th 2008 11:10AM]

Having to hold it horizontal to the ground (or at whatever angle) is only an issue if the game doesn't offer calibration. Many games do, but not all, unfortunately.

[BigD145 @ Nov 12th 2008 12:42PM]

If people have troubles with the keyboard, there's no way they could ever play a game.

[KA @ Nov 12th 2008 1:21PM]

From My Cube,

accelerometer.

[Fred @ Nov 12th 2008 10:19AM]

"Apple may find an edge come holiday season with casual gamers"

In theory, yes. In practice? Not by a long shot.

[mirakutea @ Nov 12th 2008 10:21AM]

With future revisions of the iPod touch they probably will take a big slice of the market.

[Kartik @ Nov 12th 2008 10:38AM]

Apple will never have a decent slice of the casual gaming market.

First of all Nintento and the Wii dominate casual gaming(so well that they sell more than the serious gaming machines: ps3, x360)

And also people who are "casual gamers" don't play games a lot- they don't care to play games when they're out

and also the Nintendo DS is doing phenomenal, the iTouch could never even hope challenge it.

I own a PSP, but i never play it, i love Crisis Core but that game is too serious for a handheld on hard mode, it should just be on ps3 in hi-def :-P

so yeah, the iTouch, because of its backing by Apple, may make a decent amount of money in the gaming world- but they won't be challenging Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo any time soon

[elmer @ Nov 12th 2008 11:01AM]

I question what constitues 'casual' and 'hardcore' in this case. There's little doubt that regardless of Sony's intentions, the PSP is hardcore. What's of more debate is whether the leader, the DS, is what we call hardcore at all. It has core titles that perform well, but much of it's success stems from being able to appeal to men, women, children, teens and the elderly as well as the core unlike any platform before it, using titles like brain training and Nintendogs. Part of this is due to the cheap price of the system, which is a by-product of the meager system performance: the ipod touch/iphone line is still too advanced to compete. The question is can Apple appeal to Nintendo's so-called 'casual' extended market? I also think not. How many elderly people and children do you know with an iphone? How many people with an iphone might lend their phone to their brother/aunt/cat to play with? How many third parties are going to provide apple that non-gaming leap like animal crossing that have been responsible for the real capture of the real non-core? That's how Nintendo did it, and I don't see the same moves here.

[Ashwin @ Dec 12th 2008 5:40PM]

Compare sales of the Nintendo DS to the iPod touch. Demand for the iPod touch will be far greater, because more people listen to music than play games. No one will buy the iPod touch just to play games. But the people that buy an iPod touch, will most likely buy a game or two. Developers win by supporting Apple's platform, because people that would never buy a dedicated portable gaming device like the DS, would most likely have at least a few games for the iPhone or iPod touch.

[UnixSystemsEngineer @ Nov 12th 2008 10:18AM]

And there should be a convergence. If you're already carrying a touchscreen phone in your pocket, why do you need a portable gaming machine? Or, alternately, if you're already carrying a portable gaming machine, why do you need a separate phone? Obviously Apple's pushing themselves as the #1 player in this game (ha), but it could be anyone.

You've already got the battery, the screen, the processing power, the storage capacity, and an OS. Might as well make it do as much as it can, at least to the extent that it doesn't compromise the original purpose of the device.

[zargon @ Nov 12th 2008 10:54AM]

Because an all in one device is not always the answer. I rather carry around two devices that function exactly what they are suppose to and do it great rather than one or both functions being mediocre.

[UnixSystemsEngineer @ Nov 12th 2008 11:00AM]

Right, but it seems that fewer people carry pocket cameras these days than before, and camera phones make a *terrible* substitute for a real camera. Phones make a much better substitute for a gaming device.

Likely what you'll find is that people who care more about games will have phones that are more gaming-oriented (like the N-Gage tried to be), but the similarities between a smartphone and a gaming device are too similar to ignore -- much more obvious than the similarities between a phone and a camera, where the only similarity is a screen and then a tacked-on CCD.

[Kelmon @ Nov 12th 2008 11:15AM]

It's a fair point. Ideally, a combined device will demonstrate the best features of each "device" that it comprises. In reality, it will probably succeed in all areas as long as it does at least one important feature the best and is at least "good enough" in other areas. Convenience is always king.

[GON @ Nov 12th 2008 10:22AM]

I don't believe that. The iPod Touch has only two methods of input when playing games: the accelerometer and the touch screen, and gameplay with only those two things gets old real fast. It also limits the genre of games that can be made for the device (E.G: Fighting). People will take Apple seriously when they add buttons to this device. Oh and the DS is cheaper, doesn't come with a contract, has a larger library of games, sells more of said games, and sells more than the iPod Touch every year.

[Aaron @ Nov 12th 2008 10:32AM]

I agree with this.

Look at Mario Kart on the Wii. Everyone thought it was going to be great fun using the Wii accelerometer + Wii wheel to control the karts. And it was... for about 15 minutes.

Everyone I know who enjoys Mario Kart on a regular basis has reverted back to using traditional control methods. The Wii wheel is too imprecise to feel satisfying and rewarding.

[rattyuk @ Nov 12th 2008 10:34AM]

"The iPod Touch has only two methods of input... ...Oh and the DS is cheaper, doesn't come with a contract."

Erm, Neither does the iPod Touch.

[Quix @ Nov 12th 2008 11:51AM]

"Oh and the DS is cheaper, doesn't come with a contract, has a larger library of games, sells more of said games, and sells more than the iPod Touch every year."

True (I have a DS). And a game for the DS is $30. And can be "installed" only a single DS at one time (so the kids get to fight over who gets the Nintendogs cartridge). And only one game can be on the DS at any given time. And that cartridge can be lost or damaged.

I also have an iPhone. I can get fun games on my iPhone for $10 or less (often free). I can install many games on my iPhone simultaneously. I can install the games I buy on all of the iPods/iPhones in my household. And my games are backed up on my computer in iTunes. No cartridges to lose. Could I lose my iPhone? Sure, just like I could lose my DS. But I could connect a new iPhone to iTunes and download all my games to it again. Good luck to you if someone rips off your DS case that contains your DS and your cartridges.

We are in the *very* early stages of iPhone/iPod Touch gaming, but anyone who can't see the potential here is either blind, or just blinded by hate of all things Apple (which includes most Engadget commenters).

Whoever comes up with the first truly great MMORPG for iPhone/iPod Touch is going to make a fortune. And note to Blizzard: iPhone/iPod version of Starcraft, STAT!

[Chris @ Nov 12th 2008 1:24PM]

The games only cost $0-$10 because there isn't a development firm behind them. (I think apple paid the monkey ball people a pretty penny to make that game...)

Granted, without the cartages and middle men, the price might go down a little, but you won't be seeing good, high-quality $10 games

[KarlW @ Nov 12th 2008 10:22AM]

Pfft. He's so biased.

[green_link @ Nov 12th 2008 10:24AM]

good graphics does not mean good games. most, like 95%, of games a downloaded on my iPod touch are crap. the graphics aren't good and the controls are so bad (real games use buttons i put my iPod away and whip out my DS and play some REAL games that don't take a day to program and have some depth. the iPod touch or iPhone will never be greater than what Nintendo or Sony can make.

[Backlin @ Nov 12th 2008 10:31AM]

I was going to say the exact same thing.

[KarlW @ Nov 12th 2008 10:38AM]

Good graphics =/= good games.

If the current generation of handheld/home consoles has taught us anything, it's that graphics don't matter.

PS3/360 vs. Wii
PSP vs DS

[aaron @ Nov 12th 2008 10:50AM]

"never" is a very strong word. Might want to think twice about using it in the future.

[projekt84 @ Nov 12th 2008 10:24AM]

There is just SO much you could say that this is the entire wrong way to going against combating against the giant that is Nintendo.

Nintendo has based their ENTIRE COMPANY off making low powered machines that sell in the billions. The "this Nintendo machine here has no graphix POWAH" argument didn't work for PSP, Xbox 360, or Playstation 3, how in the heck could it work now?

[UnixSystemsEngineer @ Nov 12th 2008 10:39AM]

But in a way this proves that Apple can compete, doesn't it? The success of the DS, as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with established Nintendo franchise games. Even the Wii owes very little to Mario and Zelda. Nintendo's success in casual gaming proves that fun entertaining games trump graphics horsepower, complex controls, and so on. Sure, the graphics power of the iPhone/touch don't necessarily make them better gaming devices than the DS, but neither do they make it worse for gaming.

Handheld gaming is a lot less tied to established franchises and backwards compatibility than console gaming is. All you need is a good device and some good games. Apple's already got the good device, all they need to do is convince people to buy games for it. This is a much easier sell than, say, Sony convincing you that you should buy and carry around a PSP when you already carry a gaming device on you every day.

[projekt84 @ Nov 12th 2008 10:51AM]

This proves even less that Apple can compete. The success of the DS, and any gaming device, is DRIVEN by the quality software. Nintendo may not owe its Wii/DS success to Mario and Zelda, but Nintendo owes 90% of its success to Nintendo developed software. What would the DS be without Nintendogs, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Brain Age, and so many extremely popular titles made by Nintendo.

Apple will never have a solid place in the gaming arena by just having a powerful machine. Software is first priority in making a successful gaming machine, and unless they got some crazy exclusive titles from major 3rd party developers... then iPod/iPhone won't be relevant in the gaming world.

[Aaron @ Nov 12th 2008 10:28AM]

I'm not convinced.

The stand-out handheld console at the moment is the Nintendo DS. It's sold a staggering 85 million units so far.

Here's where I think the DS has a massive edge:

- Price. $130 vs. $229-399. That gives the DS a much larger addressable market. How many parents are going to buy their 10 year old a $229 device?

- First party games. Sure, Apple might be able to get the likes of EA on board but it'll never have any first party titles to back it up. What does Apple have to counter Mario, Zelda et al?

- Durability. What would you rather drop; your DS or your iPod touch? Which one is more likely to survive the fall?

- Battery life. The DS's battery life is much better than the iPod touch. That's very important on the move.

- Physical controls. The touchscreen on the DS is great for some games but not for others. Given the choice (such as Age of Empires), I usually find myself reverting to the physical buttons. It's just more accurate and easier for most games.

The last issue is without a doubt the largest sticking point of me.

Disclaimer: I own both an iPod touch and Nintendo DS

[Gustav The Lion @ Nov 12th 2008 10:44AM]

Yes, the DS has EPIC battery life- and it makes a huge difference, i can play mine for days

[Quix @ Nov 12th 2008 12:00PM]

"Price. $130 vs. $229-399. That gives the DS a much larger addressable market. How many parents are going to buy their 10 year old a $229 device?"

I'm currently debating whether to get my kid a DS or a Touch for Christmas. The Touch is more expensive by $100. But every game I buy for the DS is $25-30. I can load up a bunch of cheap/free games on the Touch, including stuff I have already purchased for my own iPhone. Plus she'd get her music library, the ability to watch movies, etc. That $100 premium for the Touch disappears quickly when you're buying $30 games for the DS. The most I've spent on an iPhone game thus far is $10.

[KA @ Nov 12th 2008 1:29PM]

There is one first party title, but I doubt we'll see many more.

http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=284602850&mt=8

[Aaron @ Nov 12th 2008 1:40PM]

Quix - Sure, iPhone games are cheap but are they any good? I've yet to find anything on the app store that even comes CLOSE to the quality, playability and longevity of New Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart DS, Advanced Wars: Days of Ruin, Phoenix Wright, Civilization Revolutions, etc, etc, etc.

The premium is worth it.

If you know of any decent games for the iPod touch, I'm eager to try them though. :)

[Rainier @ Nov 12th 2008 3:40PM]

"I'm currently debating whether to get my kid a DS or a Touch for Christmas. The Touch is more expensive by $100. But every game I buy for the DS is $25-30. I can load up a bunch of cheap/free games on the Touch, including stuff I have already purchased for my own iPhone. Plus she'd get her music library, the ability to watch movies, etc. That $100 premium for the Touch disappears quickly when you're buying $30 games for the DS. The most I've spent on an iPhone game thus far is $10."

@Quix

Maybe you should ask her which games she likes first.

[XIYL @ Nov 13th 2008 2:09AM]

I own a PSP slim with an extended life battery (got it when Engadget said there wouldn't be any more produced) and I have to say that the battery is the best accessory I have ever purchased. I get 10 solid hours with the CPU overclocked and the screen on full brightness. I don't use UMD's so that never drags it down. It is probably my favorite device out of any device I own, besides of course my PC.

[Dave @ Nov 12th 2008 10:29AM]

The future of gaming.... on a platform with no buttons. Oh the irony!!!

Seriously though, get a DPad + 6 button addon going and I will half agree with Greg.