Documents suggest Microsoft knew Xbox 360 could damage discs all along
By Donald Melanson 
posted Dec 15th 2008 4:57PM
posted Dec 15th 2008 4:57PM
Microsoft long ago fessed up that the Xbox 360 was capable of scratching discs, and it even offered a (somewhat limited) exchange program for damaged games, but some recently unsealed documents from an ongoing lawsuit now suggest that the company was well aware of the issue for about as long as the console has been around. According to The Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Microsoft first discovered the problem in September or October of 2005, and it even went so far as to send a "team of engineers" to stores across the US to determine the best course of action. Apparently, they came up with three options, two of which proved to be impractical, and one of which (installing small bumpers in each and every console) proved to be too expensive, leading Microsoft to offer the disc exchange instead. What's more, the documents apparently also revealed that some Microsoft employees thought that the warning labels on the console were insufficient, and that the company has received complaints about the problem from more than 55,000 customers as of April 30th of this year. No word on any movement just yet in the lawsuits themselves just yet but one of them, filed back in July of 2007, is seeking class-action status on behalf of everyone that's bought an Xbox 360.[Thanks, Lyons]
Is this a problem only if you move it whilst it is on, or is it a problem regardless? I ask as I have as of yet had no problems, touch wood!
Specifically, a problem where the 360 will scratch discs while just sitting there (related to bad disc spindles that wobble too much). Any old disc drive will scratch a disc if you rotate it fast enough.
I just don't get this class-action. What's the point? To get Microsoft to fess up again? To get Microsoft to fix them like they already do?
Gotta love the US, I guess. Class-actions for class-action's sake. The South Park episode about Scientology comes to mind...
@HunterXI
Replacing discs isn't solving the problem if all it's going to do is scratch the disc again. That's the problem with cutting corners, it's way too easy to spend more money than fixing the problem in the first place. And now they get some bad PR about it too.
Of course, this is why the first rule of technology exists: "Never buy first generation or first manufacturing run hardware." or more simply put "Bragging rights cost cold hard cash in the long run."
Probably because Microsoft only replaces first-party discs. I had this happen to me, and surprisingly, my sympathy for a company that tries to fuck me over is pretty much nill. ;) The DRM stops people from making backups and now the console destroys disks... seriously, how can you sit there and mock people who are upset over this?
I was fortunate -- even though my disc wasn't on their exchange program and despite looking truly horrendous, with multiple circles around the disk where the 360 had scratched it, I took it to a local video rental store and paid them two dollars to resurface it and it worked. (I highly recommend trying this to anyone with disk trouble.)
The other point is to make businesses think twice about cutting corners like this. It sounds like they knew what the problem was ahead of time and decided that it made the most sense to basically ignore it, from a financial stand point - well, this would make them regret making that decision. Maybe next time they'll decide to fix the problem before it ships.
"No word on any movement just yet in the lawsuits themselves just yet but one of them, filed back in July of 2007, is seeking class-action status on behalf of everyone that's bought an Xbox 360."
If this means money for all 360 owners... I'm happy.
If this means MS has to pay an extraordinary amount of money to the few parties directly involved with the lawsuit...not happy at all.
It's rare to have this problem without moving the unit while it is on.
"The DRM stops people from making backups and now the console destroys disks... seriously, how can you sit there and mock people who are upset over this?"
Maybe it stopped you, but it did not stop everyone..
The problem isn't just scratches on the disc, which would be from moving it while it was on, but that the laser and the cushions that spin the disc are just enough off that playing a disc for more than a fairly short time can cause the disc to crack or even shatter and can also cause the infamous "red ring of death". So it isn't just a case of a lawsuit for lawsuits sake -- the 360's can actually cause a fire, burns, or catch fire themselves.
@dagamer34
"Of course, this is why the first rule of technology exists: 'Never buy first generation or first manufacturing run hardware.' or more simply put 'Bragging rights cost cold hard cash in the long run.'"
Unless, of course, you bought a launch PS3, in which case you got the best machine with the most features.
No fanboyism. I'm just sayin'.
My CoD2 still remains with a nice perfect circle carved on it because of my 360.
My Halo3 disc does too :(
Forza motorsport here.
I think everyone did it about 20 minutes after getting their 360 working. Probably doing the same thing too:
"Check this out, the Ring of Lights auto-orients depending on the 360's position!"
"Woah let me see!"
/turns xbox from vertical to horizontal while playing
***GRRIINNNNDDD***
"OH SHIT dude you just SCRATCHED MY LAUNCH TITLE!"
/facepalm
As is my GTA IV disc. Didn't notice it until I tried to start up a game on my cousins Xbox and it wouldn't load all the way. It works fine other than trying to start a new game.
My Saints Row 2 disc :(
Just go rent a copy then transfer it to the hard drive so next time you want to play all you have to do is insert your broken disc just so it knows you own the game.
Thats why, my friends, I bought myself a Playstation 3. The games *might* not be on par with those on the 360, BUT, atleast that 60-70 dollars I've invested in these hard, hard times will not be destroyed by the damn system I bought it for!
just like nerdtalker said, scratched my GRAW disk playing with the light ring. luckily it still works.
I'm with nerdtalker on this one. I have had two differant 360s all of which has always sat horizontal and not moved when operating. I also have not had one scratched disc, coincidence....I think not.
This is like sueing a hard drive maker for lossing data because somebody knocked your tower off your desk when it was running.
Warnings are there for a reason.
That's Microsoft for you! But any company will also do the same thing in order to keep their cost low. But still it's not acceptable.
Reminds me of the scene from fight club re: car accidents and recalls.
Don't talk about fight club.
...sigh...
This one is gonna be expensive, Redmond... :/
Yup. My COD4 disc is pretty scratched up, even though, I never remove it from the xbox.....I am addicted to that game
better get the tinfoil hats
Why?
Yeah. WTF are you talking about? You went from scratched discs to tinfoil hats? How is that even possible? And I thought my posts were random and off topic...
Pcikled ghurkins?
I'm just curious.. what do you think it means to "get the tinfoil hats"?
To scratch our disc and get in on the lawsuit?
Jerks
This isn't bad news. Add this to the list of specifications and people are more likely to buy it, right?
Yeah it gives discs a new look.
Replacing discs every year is a feature. Microsoft is just trying to get consumers to float the boat.
Install to harddrive.
@Lowest Ranked
Then the disc would be covered with dust inside the Xbox 360 which might lead to a lens that can't read discs
@ LowestRanked
"Install to harddrive."
why should anyone have to you asshole? Then when the hard drive gets filled you can come and buy a $150 P.O.S new one.
Wasn't there something like this with the PS2? Cause I remember being addicted to GTA San Andreas, hardly ever taking it out, and when I did I put it right away into a case, so there was no way of scratching it. Yet, it has become unusable because the back is totally scratched :(
there was a case with ps2 when it was vertical causing problems.
stupid sony starting the vertical game system trend...
but the 360 scratches even when it's flat. my gta4 was royally scratched because i played it so much. and games are REALLY expensive, there should be some type of warranty for this stuff
i had that problem with GTAIII on my ps2. In was in my console for maybe a month straight after i bought it, and one day the environments werent rendering correctly. I took the disc out, noticed some nice, perfectly, circular scratches (the console always sat flat). I went up to eb games to have them replace it, and the manager told me that i scratched it myself, and refused to honor the return policy.
Yet people will continue to support this piece of crap until it's the only serious console left.
Then, without the incentive of competition, they'll be in even less of a hurry to fix their crap and their customer support will sink even lower.
Thanks Microsoft, you're well on your way to single handedly ruining console gaming.
The existence of 2 or 3 and lack of competition between them isn't Microsoft's fault, its Sony's fault for creating a system that was far too costly for the average consumer and then under pricing their own devices and trying to make up for it through software sales, making it far more costly for the game companies to stay exclusive.
Then again, Sony did make something that works, and still works without any major flaws
Are you seriously pulling out the price card? All peripherals considered, the PS3 came out to the same price or cheaper than the 360 (even at launch).
So at the same price you have one poorly (and they knew it) built console and a console that has had VERY few issues.
Please don't try to argue this, they're facts.
So your argument is that people are only buying the 360 now because they are stupid and not because you can get one for $200 vs. the cheapest PS3 retailing for $400. I'm sorry, why isn't price a valid argument??
Price isn't entirely valid when you compare what the systems ship with, the $199 Xbox has no wi-fi or hard disk, and while now it is actually a cheaper choice with the 20gb drive price dropping too, it wasn't when I bought mine.
I, without thinking, bought the Xbox Arcade model because it was all I had the money for at the time at $289. After that I was forced to pay $100 for a 20gb for backwards compatibility and the fact the Halo map packs wouldn't fit on the memory card, then $100 on wi-fi, which the first adapter was DOA (to add insult to injury). So at $490, $90 more then my PS3, is what I spen, so now and forever more I'm going to be a little bitter towards the Xbox.
Wait, so you're saying that just because the 360 is less expensive than the PS3 that people are stupid enough to want quality over quantity?
@rudefyet
Well you're just an idiot. You're one of the suckers that Microsoft loves, you have no idea what your buying so you get ripped off. It's your own stupid fault for spending more on sn Xbox than a PS3. Do your homework next time.
rudefyet:
not everyone wants/needs wifi on their xbox. mine is hard-wired. building in wifi would force me to pay for it.
This only happens to people who don't know that you don't run a tray-loader ROM Drive in a vertical position, they are designed to be run horizontally, they may have a clip there to allow for vertical running, but it is not recommended. If people would think instead of going by what they see MS do on their box and demos they not have scratched disc. If MS should get in trouble for anything it should be for contradicting their warning and having the 360 upright in the start-up demo.
So true, had my 360 for over a year now and it has always been in the horizontal position and I'm yet to get a single scratch on any of my discs. I'm sure a lot of people have theirs in the vertical position because that's what they see in tv and ads - subliminal control?
WRONG! My Xbox has claimed my Halo 3 as well as NBA 2k8 and it's never been in the horizontal position. Hell it's never been moved from it's exact spot it's in right now. Except for the one time I had to send it in for the ring of death of course.
Horizontal - less prone to scratches, more prone to RRoD (worse ventilation)
Vertical - more prone to scratches, less prone to RRoD
My 1st 360 RRoD while horizontal
My 2nd 360 scratched discs while vertical
Lose-Lose situation
Maybe diagonal is the way to go
If you were running your PS2 upright yes, again it’s because of the tray-loader. The PS2 had less of a problem though because it was extremely unstable in the up-right position.
ps2/ps3 have similar problem on some models?
The PS3 shouldn't have any problems with disc scratching, barring improper handling of the system while a disc is loaded. This is because unlike the PS2 and 360 the PS3 uses a Slot-Loader/Feeder ROM Drive; the disc isn't being supported by a plastic bay and held in place by small plastic tabs which can cause wobble when vertical, which causes the ring scratches.
No. Why? Because the PS3 was designed by a company that has been making electronics for, what, 50 years whereas the Xbox360 is a small form-factor gaming machine pieced together with PC components with relatively little design work from a software company.
I would like to be the class-action attorney on this case.
Opening argument: "They knew this would happen. I rest my case."
Judgment: Consumers, to the tune of $9.7 million
My bill: 32% for doing nothing.
I was under the impression this only happens to people that move the 360 while the disc was spinning? I thought this was proven long ago?
None of my discs are scratch and I've had my 360's for years.
I don't think its luck
Moving any CD/DVD ROM type device could lead to scratches, when on could lead to ring scratches which are worse, and one should never move a device while the ROM is active, Wii, PS3, 360 or PC, it doesn't matter. The major factor that determines if you’re likely to get the ring scratches, which are the ones in question most of the time, is how your system is running. When the tray-loading ROM drive is running in a vertical position it can have a wobble on spin-up or when spinning at all, if this occurs and the disc surface brushes against anything you'll get the ring scratch, the most likely suspect is the laser mounting or tray in the drive usually, but there are any number of things in there that can lead to scratching of this nature, this kind of scratching is much less likely when run horizontally.
This ruined a couple games for me. Remember that horrible Sonic the Hedgehog game? It's 8 times worse when the disc is scratched. Sometimes the Xbox didn't see it, loading times were longer, froze when I saw the end level goal. Worst experience of my video game-related life.
This outta cheer y'all up, LMMFAO.
http://www.realmofdarkness.net/pranks/pesci-balls.htm
*hugs PS3*
Xbox 360 (console hardware) sucks azz! Games and content? Not so much ;^)...
It's sad that the 360 hardware is so terrible, because they have a great SDK, online community, and tons of great exclusives. I've been saying that I'll buy one eventually, but a few years have passed, and I'm still saying that. I guess it all comes down to if I can get a sweetheart deal on it.
inb4 inevitable "THI$ I$ WHY M$ $UCK$!!!1!11" comments
well would you rather 'M$ is teh greatest!! I Wuv Dem'
of course you would that is why you put up a defensive comment, shit-camel.
wait seriously? my box has been scratching discs and i thought it was just cause i must have bumped it or something. This is great news! i mean not really but still!
try putting it horizontal. hope that works better for you.
Gee ya think?
This is what I'm talking about. When I phoned up to get my Xbox 360 repaired in November 2006 the customer services rep accused me of tilting my powered up machine and refused to replace my circular-scratched Gears of War DVD. Their own damn game.
I'm pretty sure the extended RRoD warranty doesn't apply to a DVD scratching drive. That warranty was already a joke, everyone with an affected model should get a free replacement, not just the heavy users.
i think we should take a poll of engadget readers to see how widespread the problem is. i know it ruined my rock band 1 disc!
If polled, Engadget readers would put the iPhone as the top console gaming experience of 2008.
Now is a good time to buy an Xbox,
It will act like a rebate perhaps...
Had this happen to me on two occasions, Guitar Hero II and GTA IV. In neither instance was my console vertical. The replacement program only covers ~5 games you don't want anyway, and contacting the publishers of other games will just get you a "its not our fault" letter.
Hope this wins, and Microsoft is forced to send my 120$ for my two discs.
Nothing can damage Microsoft's reputation look at the NPD's
FYI if it does go to class action status and the consumer "Wins" the results will be lawyers pocking $10Million and consumers get a rebate good for 1 MS product upto $59.99 retail value or something. The consumers will not get anything worthwhile out of this. You do get to poke at MS pocket books a little though.
The XBOX 360 is a total piece of garbage and isn't worth $1 hardware wise. It was built by the lowest bidder in China and made to get out the door. Not even made well enough to get out the door since 70% of the consoles made were thrown out at the factory up until last year.
I seriously doubt the 360 successor will be made any better. Microsft will never spend more money than they have to on hardware. Even if it means paying for it later. They will also pay out before a class action suit is ever filed.
Even if you shook the PS3 up and down while a disc was spinning you wouldn't be able to scratch the disc. I took a pocketknife to Resistance after I was done with it and I didn't scratch the disc. As much as people want to hate Sony, the PS3 in an incredible machine. It is built like a 1990s Volvo and the 360 is built like a Yugo.
Conversion for americans:
Xbox360 - Ford Taurus
PS3 - Toyota Camry
Conversions for Brits
Xbox 360: Toyota Camry
PS3: Land Rover Range Rover
if you took a pocket knife to a disc and it didnt scratch...wouldn't that mean it was the disc had some type of scratch resistance, like a blu ray disc and if it were a regular dvd it would probly scratch as its spinning in your PS3 while your shaking it?
i would have to agree. ps3 hardware, but with 360 games and live.
it destroyed my rock band disk. I have a nice ring around my disk now. Thanks microsoft! Thank god it wasn't my Halo 3 disk or else I would have to go to redmond and really give them a piece of my mind.
People still play from the discs on the 360 after the NXE?!
I hate to break it to you, but the data doesn't magically copy itself from the disc to the hard drive.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. This isnt my Batman cup!
well, i bought at launch, so unless i want to cough up $100 for a horribly overpriced drive, i can copy a max of one disk to the HDD.
This destroyed Gear of War 1 the day I got it. I think I did tilt my 360 as I was loading it though so I kinda blamed myself. However, I'd bought it from GameStop (this was before I'd decided to boycott them for gouging customers when new consoles come out), but in their defense they replaced it straight away. I seem to remember they mis-diagnosed the problem, but I wasn't complaining. Never happened since, but I do keep my 360 flat. Also never got RRoD despite my 360 residing under my sofa - maybe I'm just lucky (cue RRoD just in time for xmas).
Why are manufacturers complaining about sending replacement disks? Total cost for that has got to be a few bucks/incident. You could put in some very basic safeguards to protect yourself from fraud.
Seems pretty simple to me.
I love seeing this story resurface. I was a beta tester on the 1st Gen Xbox and it was a problem there too. The testers all voiced their concerns, but they did nothing about it. You can bet they knew about this one before launch too.
This is not at all shocking. MS is (or at least at the time was) in no way against lying about the console to make sure you bought it (instead of buying/waiting for a PS3).
They lied about having the RRoD fixed when extending the RRoD warranty to 1 year (later they seem to have fixed it, at about the same time as they extended the warranty to 3 years).
I'm not sure if this is widespread among the console makers, but I do know not to trust MS to tell the truth about their own.
hey look, Iv'e got a 360, and personally this is badass! Microsoft may have the best online and better sales than its compeditors, but they really know how to nickel and dime. personally what they should do is not get vouchers or refunds for people, but just make live free for 1 year (if not forever!!!) and mabye give a free game.
You just want to claim something that is not proven. Quit bragging for having xbox 360 they are just another piece of crap.
i tried to move my 360 sideways and gggrrrrinnnnddd there goes cod 4... now only multiplayer works
I don't think ps3 will make your disc stratch. However, I want to make one think clear that is the 2.53 update did cause my ps3 to disfunction. I'm not sure if you guys have a similar problem but most of the older ps3 like 60gb have been affected by it. Now, my ps3 can't play any games or blu ray. Some of the people i met online through the playstation forum have similar situation like mine. I email Sony about this issue, all their reply is to sent it in to fix for $150. Although i can afford to pay for it but I will not paying it because the problem was cause by the update released by Sony. They should correct this problem by fixing it for free or release another firmware to fix it.
I curious if this is a problem only with first generation XBOX 360's or all of them? I just bought my first 360 Pro new three days ago.
You still have time to return it and get a PS3 you won't regret it. This is just friendly advice amigo!
joueboy, your comments are the thing I hate about the engadget blogs. Every time you, a PS3 lover, or worse yet an Apple lover get a chance to FU an engadget blog you do so. I asked a question because I wanted and answer, not a bunch of opinionated BS. So again I ask, does anybody know if this problem is linked only to first generation XBOX 360's or ones currently being produced too?
Well if you have the Jasper unit, you should be ok. Here is how to check if you do.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/10/inside-an-xbox-360-jasper-ben-heck-dissects-the-mythical-consol/
If you don't, return that sucker asap!