From our perspective, it appears that we've reached a tipping point with regards to interest in the electric / hybrid automobile. No wonder considering the environmental and national security risks presented by a continuation of an oil-only approach. Unfortunately for the troubled US automotive industry (and economy), the single biggest money generator from a global fleet of electronic vehicles -- the lithium-ion battery cell -- is
likely to be manufactured in Asia along side the lithium ion batteries found in our consumer electronics. According to the Wall Street Journal, "More than four dozen advanced battery factories are being built in China but none, currently, in the U.S." That could change, however, with a little determination, private investment, and a government willing to clear the way for manufacturing of this highly toxic contributor to the US infrastructure. Already, we've seen that
Intel is being coaxed into building electric car batteries. Now, a group of 14 firms (including 3M and Johnson Controls-Saft) have stepped up to form an alliance with a US government laboratory. The National Alliance for Advanced Transportation Battery Cell Manufacture is modeled after SEMATECH, a public-private venture from the 80s that helped restore US prominence in computer semiconductor technology. The goal is to create a shared-cost, "open foundry" for members to perfect and ultimately produce automotive batteries. Problem is, they need upwards of $2 billion to build a plant to manufacture batteries that no one has ordered. Of course, that's a pittance when compared to the
bailout requests made by the Big 3. Hmm, jobs and an industry dominating money machine... hey Obama, you listening?
[Via
Ars Technica]
posted Dec 19th 2008 9:29AM
EEStor should get in on this action
just came here to type that. there are a couple u.s.a. based companies testing ultra-capacitors. i'm just waiting for the cityzenn, 450 km range at 120 kph, awesome!
Tag that picture as weird.
nutsack or roll of fat?
Kill it with fire!!!
"WATCH OUT ZOEY....ITS THE TANNNNNNNNNK !!!!"
I don't even want to know why this picture was taken.
You don't just grow up knowing how to stop trains or wrestle an ICBM. This was some of Clark's most important training as a kid.
This picture is GREAT!!
I dunno, I feel dirty just looking at it.....
*shudder*
Anyone know where or what this picture is from? Movie, article, tv show?
This is right up there with his new new deal and putting all the fat lazy people in our country back to manual labor and fix our roads so we can drive electric cars.
It isn't even called a loan anymore, it's called a bailout. Yay.
A loan is given to allow a company to expand. A bailout is given to allow a company to survive. (and quite morally against everything capitalism stands for...) If the company being bailed out wasn't selling enough to cover their costs, they needed to redesign the items, fire a few people or get the fuck out of business. Not be hand-held by government.
What is that baby doing picking on that obese gentleman?
And why are they both wearing diapers?!
What is a Sony character doing wearing a Mario hat in your Avatar?
@ Seneca
You should see Joystiq's default avatars: http://www.joystiq.com/
It's popular to copy the Mario-esque feeling of them. A lot of people do it with different characters and different Marios.
Popularity is relative.
So... we're back to being David again? *sigh*
ok come on. This is by far the dumbest story. There is no global warming! No auto manufacturer is making money on hybrids yet and we all know how well batteries keep charge after a couple years...
Tapping all of our oil resources instead of letting these granola hippies have their way will make it affordable for all and get us through for enough time to research something more efficient.
I would go for the whole hybrid thing if we were actually building nuclear power generators so power was guaranteed to be cheap.
But here in Oregon when we put idiots like Culongosky in charge who built a solar highway that cost over 60 cents per KW/h I don't see nuclear power (technology) working out...
Oregon eh? It must be cold there today and so therefore you don't believe. You probably think Santa doesn't exist because he brought you coal instead of Polly Pockets because you're such a meanie.
Nice read on why Coal is still cheaper than Nuke plants(myth4)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/nov/27/renewableenergy-energy
Little published fact: The average global surface temperatures have not increased in the last ten years.
Chernobyl.
Sometimes financial-cost isn't the greatest factor.
One of the few voices of reason. As further evidence, French President Sarkozy had to bury an exhaustive analysis of the prospects for electric/hybrid vehicles that concluded THEY HAVE NO FUTURE. Not cost effective, the infrastructure will never be built, and the ultimate power still comes from electricity generating pollution centers (wind? solar? give me abreak). And some idiots believe GM killed the electric car.
Are you a ****** moron? Global warming doesn't exist? You have to be kidding me.. Where does such ignorance and denial come from? Is the earth flat too? Or the universe is 10,000 years old? Humans lived with dinosaurs? The fanatical zealotry from climate change deniers like you is just astounding! Its just as bad as the crazy evangelical nutcases!
Every major national scientific academy and organization in the world supports the vast, overwhelming consensus that climate change is happening, and has a predominantly anthropogenic origin from releasing enormous quantities of C02 in the atmosphere. 99 out of 100 climate scientists agree with that consensus view. The goddamn glaciers and ice sheets all around the world are losing billions of tons of ice each year and you can stand there and claim climate change doesn't exist??
My god, please go back and get your highschool diploma, or at least stay out of politics and civil society, and let the adults make the decisions. And lastly, please do not reproduce. We do not need someone with your fringe attitude in the gene pool.
Congratulations to loosely_coupled for winning the Engadget Party "Flame bait biter" award!!!!
Yes, I do,you'll get the money pronto.
If the US didn't have the second highest corporation tax in the world venture capitalists might be interested in investing in such a plant. Unfortunately, with corporation tax so high the odds are stacked against you since you lose 100% if you you make a loss but only take 65% if you make a profit. With such high risk it's little wonder people prefer to invest in lower tax economies and send jobs abroad that could have gone to US workers.
It's really not a hard decision for businesses - expand your business in the US at 35% corporation tax or expand your business in somewhere like Ireland at 12.5%. Hmm, which will make most profit while minimising risk? Ireland it is then! Things will only get worse when Obama comes in since he plans to raise corporation tax even higher sending more investment and more jobs abroad. I can't imagine how he things raising corporation tax will rejuvenate the economy. Seems more likely to me that he'll finish off what's left.
Here here. There's too much talk about how capitalism has "ruined" us. Humans who abused capitalism ruined us. Not the system. The system is good just play by the rules. Putting us in a socialist economy isn't going to make humans good all of a sudden. It's just going to make them even more angry.
Everything in moderation. Yin and Yang. Ride the line. etc,... Get it?
I dream of a tax, called the Fair Tax.
I guess you drank the Republican coolaid. While the corporate tax may be 35%, there are so many loopholes that corporate tax burden has been falling for the past several decades. In fact, the lobbyists that represent the large corporations are the ones writing most tax laws and the congress just rubber stamps them.
@siva
Simple answer, cut the corporate tax AND the loopholes. Problem solved, checkpoint met.
Corporate welfare offsets the corporate taxes, so only homegrown businesses can establish themselves.
I don't know what is worse, your sheer ignorance or the fact that you seem to really believe you know what you are talking about.
- "With such high risk it's little wonder people prefer to invest in lower tax economies and send jobs abroad that could have gone to US workers."
What? Have you seen the GDP of the United States? We have led the WORLD in corporate investment and business growth for decades! The outsourcing of manufacturing has NOTHING TO DO WITH TAX RATES you idiot! It is basic economics! Manufacturing's large labor requirements provide an incentive to build plants in developing countries with cheap labor costs, where workers are paid little to work long hours and with no form of benefits or access to organized labor unions.
- "with corporation tax so high the odds are stacked against you since you lose 100% if you you make a loss but only take 65% if you make a profit."
That is complete nonsense, and doesn't reflect reality. First of all, the rules governing profit, loss, and taxation are much more complex than "you lose 100% if you you make a loss but only take 65% if you make a profit". That would make any economist laugh as the sheer ignorance of that comment.
Secondly, the corporate profit tax rate is a NOMINAL RATE. The reality is that there are so many avenues to offset corporate taxation that the net taxation of corporate profits is *SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER* than the nominal rate. Japan, in fact, has the same nominal corporate tax rate as the United States but with a much stricter tax code that doesn't allow them to get away with all the loopholes and tax shelters inherent in the USA --- and they seem to be doing just fine with investment and economic growth.
- "Things will only get worse when Obama comes in since he plans to raise corporation tax even higher sending more investment and more jobs abroad.."
Obama's economic plan is overwhelmingly supported by American economists. He is not trying to raise tax rates on corporations, he simply wants to get rid of the tax shelters and loopholes that allow certain companies and industries to get away with what amounts to tax fraud! And to suggest that he is only going to raise taxes and "hurt the economy" is ridiculous!
In fact, he plans on creating the largest economic recovery project since FDR. He is going to invest over a TRILLION dollars in grants, subsidies, and tax incentives for American companies creating American jobs, and remove the incentives to outsource production. The conservatives have systematically destroyed America's manufacturing base over the last 30 years, and it is time for a restoration of American jobs.
I'm sure you also believe that Obama's tax plan which raises the personal income tax rates of the two highest brackets by roughly 3.5% is "socialism", despite the fact that it has been shown that overwhelmingly most wealthy individuals pay much less in net personal income taxes than the nominal rate of their tax bracket. Again, just like corporations, they are able to take advantage of all kinds of tax breaks, loopholes, and tax shelters with their team of accountants.
It's easy to see this in action. Despite nominal tax rates that are higher than average, the net taxation of the United States in tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest in the developed world! We are ranked #30 in fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
Those little toy cars are nice to play with, but in a foot of snow, i'll take my Toyota 4x4 over an electric putt-putt tin can.
Invest in lithium!
That picture is wrong on so many levels I am not even sure where to start...
E. Honda Vs. Dhalsim
***Fight!!!***
But that's a wapanese, not Dhalsim. ; )
After conquering the boxing world Little Mac moves to Japan to find a new challenge...
Yes, please get rid of those chinese slave-made stuff!
Well, 80% of Japanese cars on US roads are manufactured and assembled in the US.
But not the batteries.
I think the non exploding ones are manufactured here.
Surely that picture should be of a big fat American, falling over, to represent the failing US car industry, up against a lean and efficient Asian representing the Japanese...? Just a thought.
Actually, it is a picture of big fat American. That wrestler's name is Konishiki and he's Hawaiian.
This is a great article. Thank you.
This is a picture of the fat, bloated, archaic, out-dated, U.S. auto industry being propped up by U.S. citizens. It's a shame that they can't be allowed to fail. All those execs should be forced out and never be allowed to hold a any similar position. That should also include AIG and everyone in the banking industry at fault.
I don't see how the American auto industry is considered fat and bloated when they've all cut their workforce down by 85% over the past 15 to 20 years or so. Anyone hired in the last 5 to 10 years gets about the same pay as they would if they worked for Toyota or Honda. You get zero benefits until you work for several years. Nobody is making the insane wages that are being claimed and anyone making decent money is being shoved out the door as fast as possible.
The only real problem is that people stopped buying cars and not just American cars. Toyota or Honda aren't selling any cars either, not even their precious little hybrid cars that no one wants anymore since gas prices have fallen. In this economy, anyone who makes products that cost over 10 grand is going to be in trouble. Those are the things that people cut out first. They are willing to hold onto that car for a while longer after paying it off instead of trading it in and upgrading to the next model.
I really wish people would stop this nonsense. I've seen more stores and restaurants closing every day and yet somehow, everyone thinks that the auto industry caused their own collapse. They were doing just fine when everyone else was too but now no one is doing very well at all. It's not just them. Why are we not talking about the fat, bloated, archaic, out-dated electronics industry as Circuit City closes a ton of stores and files for bankruptcy? Where are the fat, bloated, archaic, out-dated coffee house industry stories and comments? * sigh *
If you don't want to spend your money to help the economy grow...that's fine, it's a free country. If you actually believe that the auto-industry wouldn't be in this mess no matter how they ran their companies...again, free country. If you think that the collapse of the auto-industry won't affect every American (and many, many others) in a terribly negative way...you have been grossly misinformed.
Sorry, I’m not trying to pick on you personally Walt. This is kind of directed at all of those who feel the way you do.
Circuit City isn't asking for 15 billion dollars to operate for 3 months.
And the unions continue to get fat and bloated, which is why they were so against GM filing chapter 11. They're afraid of losing their power and money, but good buddy Bush bailed them out, and the chosen one Obama will give them more next year. You can bet on that.
Two flaws.
1. The US does not have the natural resources to produce our own batteries (of any kind). Therefore, we will be trading one foreign dependency for another. Oil for Lithium. This is NOT was the average American wants. We want to be free of foreign resources.
2. 2bill vs. 25 or even 50bill is not a "pittance". It's a signficant amount. Think if you made $50,000 a year and the government came along and demanded that now you give up an extra $2000. I'd be pissed and most of you would too.
It's sad that the politicians were so quick to jump and give the financial industry $700 billion, yet they don't want to give the Auto industry a dime. It was the "big three" that allowed the US to survive WWII. It's been the backbone of the US since. It's also the fault of our politicians giving forcing the US into a "world market" that's caused our homegrown automakers to be in the bind they are. Open your eyes people. The news is telling only one side.
I don't even know what blog about,. But i'm saving this on my iPhone pics,.that guy us Steve jobs ,heard he real scrawny now,.
now i know y jobs isnt attending macworld.,he pursuing a career in sumo wrestling.,
You're a King of the Hill fan, and you like to talk like Con and you call yourself Shugg. I get it. I don't know why, but it just came to me. Nobody else here does, and without that it's never going to get funny.
Maybe an avatar pic would he...no just, no.
Hmm, that looks like Konishiki... who's American.
The photo may be part of this...
http://www.willisms.com/archives/2007/06/wednesday_capti_107.html
Wait, that photo shows a totally different opponent. How many matches does this kid have under his belt (or whatever that thing is called)?
The photo is of this kid if I am not mistaken...
http://www.daylife.com/photo/05DRcFd9EY5nw
Hmm. Yesterday an engadget post complains about out of hand commenters. Today, they provoke them with this. No complaints really, just confused.
Congratulations to the Asian companies for being smart enough to corner the battery market.
So, basically we in the US suck so bad we can't even make high tech batteries at a good price and still be profitable.
I find it hard to believe that this doesn't have to do with a higher profit margin, rather than not making any money at all...
I'm only commenting on this topic for the pic.
I think you are right. There seems to be reached a tipping point now for electrical cars where even an extremely low oil price won't be able to stop it anymore. Of course the route to it will have to be found out still. The range currently is from pure electrical cars with LiIon batteries to hybrids. To fundamentally change the way we do things is typically what takes longest and that's why I think that Shai Agassi's project of building battery replacement stations in cities and whole countries is not going to work as it is too expensive and takes too long. A hybrid approach seems the better short-term approach and here the company Mindset (www.mindset.ch) has not only the right name but also the right concept I think. Other guys such as Tesla Motors who are building a racing car with LiIon batteries sounds to me like building a disco into a catholic church. Wrong thing for the intended audience. Bottom line is that we will see some real action here and as for me, my future car will have a battery built in that is clear.