Ask Engadget: Best consumer-level HDD camcorder?

Seems like the holidays are always good for sparking up a discussion on camcorders -- after all, what better time to have one than when everyone in your extended family's family is gathered together at your house? Take a break from the turkey and gift bags and give Chaz's question some thought.

"I've been looking for a decent HDD-based camcorder. I just want to use it for normal everyday use, and maybe to record some live performances, like dance shows and stuff like that. I'm not looking to spend a fortune, and I'm obviously looking for the biggest bang for my buck. Thanks for any advice!"

Chaz might just be onto something here, as these memories you're making this week will be lost forevers and evers unless someone pulls out the camcorder and lights up the red light. If you've recently purchased a hard drive-based camcorder, why not toss in your advice? As for us, we'll point to Samsung's SC-HMX20C and simultaneously ask you to send in a question of your own to ask at engadget dawt com.

[Heshmati4 @ Dec 25th 2008 10:33PM]

If you are getting an HD HDD camcorder, I would go with the Canon HG 20/21. 24 bit-rate is impressive in all, but 24P and 30P frame rates make all the difference.

[diggit @ Dec 25th 2008 10:35PM]

ya beat me to it, LOL

[Evangelion @ Dec 26th 2008 12:39AM]

^This.

[Alfyx @ Dec 26th 2008 3:46AM]

Best Buy Canada is selling the Sony SR11 60GB 1080p Camcorder for $800 on Boxing Day. I'm hoping to get one in about three hours.

[D.S = digtal shit @ Dec 26th 2008 9:05AM]

600$ budget need at least 40gig and HD please help.

[diggit @ Dec 25th 2008 10:34PM]

Canon HG20 (AVCHD at 24kbps so excellent quality, 60 Gb internal hard drive, no tapes! Takes SD card to add storage if needed. Excellent quality and bang for the buck)
Canon HG21 (same as above, twice the hard drive space, plus view finder;)
Canon HV30 (HDV format so it's tape based. Very good quality, prices dropped a lot lately)

Sony has very similar offerings but AFAIK their AVCHD camcorders do NOT reach 24kbps yet so HDV is a better bet if you choose Sony.

[Joseph @ Dec 26th 2008 2:06AM]

I believe you meant 24Mbps

[Mayor Awesome @ Dec 26th 2008 10:23AM]

Personally, I'd go with the HG20, The HG21 has a view finder and a bigger HD, but I don't think that makes up for the price difference.

One thing you should know about recording live performances though, and it's very important. I've got a Canon HG20 and I was recording a live show in Chicago. Every once in a while it would just stop recording complaining about a buffer overflow. Sucked ass. I pulled out my Jesus phone and started poking around looking for a solution.

The loud noise from the live performance can vibrate the drop sensor in the hard drive. This will stop the hard drive for a time. There is a buffer, but when that fills up it just stops recording all together.

If you're going to record a live show bring some padding or something to put around the camera to dampen the sound.

[DrWatson @ Dec 25th 2008 10:45PM]

I'm also lookin for advice here. BTW, Samsung's SC-HMX20C doesn't seem to be HDD-based.

[St. Clair @ Dec 26th 2008 12:27PM]

The Samsung is both HDD based and has a slot for memory card. On Super High Def it has about 3 hours of recording time. I bought one right before I went to Italy and got some amazing footage. The Msrp was $800.00, but I got mine at Abt for $380.00

[Sergio Pereira @ Dec 26th 2008 1:02PM]

Are you sure about this? The specs and everything I read about it leads me to believe it has an internal 8GB flash storage and the slot for flash cards. I'm not attached to an HDD-based camcorder so this one might just work either way.

[solmar @ Dec 27th 2008 11:31AM]

It's not HDD (hard disk drive) based. It's flash-memory based, with 8GB of internal memory, and a slot for expansion, similar to the Canon HF10, which has 16GB of internal flash memory. Having a HDD and having internal flash memory are very two different things. A HDD based camcorder usually has a lot more storage (60GB, 120GB vs 16GB, 32GB), is bulkier, and is a bit more fragile.

[Fatima @ Dec 25th 2008 10:49PM]

I have a sony one and its amazing.

[iEngadget @ Dec 25th 2008 10:53PM]

I have a RCA one and its amazing.

[Joseph @ Dec 25th 2008 10:57PM]

Get a tape based HD camera from Canon. The picture quality is excellent for all of Canon's products. I recommend tape based because it is FAR easier to find compatible software than for AVCHD.

[Aarun @ Dec 26th 2008 1:47AM]

Unless you have a new MacBook, such as myself. Then I am f***ed 'cos El Jobsy left out FireWire 400. Bastard.

[iKurt @ Dec 25th 2008 11:03PM]

I have an iPhone and its amazing.

[Levi @ Dec 25th 2008 11:05PM]

good thing it's an HD camcorder

[slycooper_rocker [anti-panda death murder squadron force five] @ Dec 26th 2008 12:04AM]

yeah it can take great videos! oh wait...

[Levi @ Dec 25th 2008 11:06PM]

So is there such a thing as a decent HD camcorder that doesn't cost a zillion dollars? Like, maybe, a couple hundred? I'm down with 720p home videos. Friends and family wouldn't do well in full HD. Hell, my friend's nose hairs totally stuck out in standard def in the last thing we shot.

[gahahha @ Dec 25th 2008 11:24PM]

nothing beats my betacam. taking the VCR everywhere = win.

[Game_playa @ Dec 25th 2008 11:28PM]

But your comment = fail

[Jinto @ Dec 25th 2008 11:59PM]

so my laugh at his comment also = fail?

[Game_playa @ Dec 26th 2008 12:44AM]

This.

[DrMark @ Dec 25th 2008 11:30PM]

I have the Canon HG20. It is outstanding for a consumer cam. The 24p mode does a stellar job in low light. I have no complaints with it at all. If you read the reviews, you will see it at the top of the charts for HD. The HV30 does rate a tiny bit higher, but I want true 1080p and no tapes.

[nufo @ Dec 25th 2008 11:36PM]

i bought the jvc GZMG330AUS for $75 brand new from sears and its pretty neat very easy to use of course you are not going to find it for that price anywhere lol but yall should look at sears clearance things because they put them something on clearance when they just came out i only know because i worked there lol just a bit of advice

[Alex @ Dec 25th 2008 11:40PM]

I just got a Canon HF100. It doesn't have a hard drive, but that only means that it's a lot lighter, and you can use SD cards (I got a 16GB for $40 on Amazon, which holds 4 hours of HD recording time). The HF10 is more expensive, but has 16GB internal flash memory, as well as an SD card slot.

As a totally casual camcorder user, I find the quality to be very good, and the useability to be top-notch.

The HF11 is more expensive as it allows higher bitrate recording and it includes 32GB internal. However I was satisfied with the test footage I saw of the HF100, and why pay for internal storage when SD cards are so cheap?

I realize these are not HDD camcorders, but I think they're better.

[Aarun @ Dec 26th 2008 1:50AM]

SD's of a decent capacity aren't. $850NZD (490USD) for a 20MB/s read-write Panasonic card of 32GB capacity. There is however, nearly $400NZD of profit at $850.

[ashish @ Dec 26th 2008 3:47AM]

+1 for the HF-100. how do you backup your videos from a 16GB card? I use 8GB cards and find backing up videos a PITA. In fact, I'm thinking of buying a few 4GB cards to burn them straight to a DVD after a shoot.

[Mark @ Dec 26th 2008 11:41AM]

Lol@AlterBridge

[Alex @ Dec 26th 2008 2:50PM]

@ Aarun:
I got my 16Gb Class 6 SDHC card for $40 with a card reader. Can record like 4-5 hours on it.

@ ashish:
I just put the memory card in my computer and pull the video files onto my hard drive to back up my video.

@ Mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTpHW-Fy_Zo

[Sergio Pereira @ Dec 26th 2008 6:19PM]

@ashish, are you saying your computer's HD or external drive is formatted FAT32? If so then, yes, you'll have a hard time copying those 4GB+ files around. Can't you just reformat (or partition some space) with NTFS to store these very large files?

[mukelarvin @ Dec 26th 2008 12:03AM]

I can't decide if I want a Flip Mino HD or not.

I like the size and the price. (Small and Cheap.) But I think I'd need a removable battery and an SD slot.
Also my hands shake really badly so some optical stabilization would be nice.

But they're so (comparatively) cheap...

[dj moon @ Dec 26th 2008 2:40AM]

I'm with you on this one.
I'd like to know, once & for all, which one actually has the best video quality.
If you read reviews, they really are not cut & dry.
Features are secondary to a good picture.
I can always edit later in Vegas (et al.).

[i.c. weiner @ Dec 26th 2008 12:23AM]

What happened to highest ranked comments?

[Tyler Mills @ Dec 26th 2008 1:28AM]

Canon HG20 or HG21 based on price. Best you're gonna get for the price.

[Arman @ Dec 26th 2008 1:29AM]

My vote is for Canon HG-20.

As noted previously 24mbps recording in 30/24p setting is great. Low light quality is also good if you go to manual mode. Has dummy proof automatic mode to get started right away. Lots of fun wide angle lenses to make some fantastic production shots of skating/skiing/biking.

The two downsides are the included software (just toss it out, it's useless like most included software on these cameras) and working with AVCHD can be a chore. New versions of Vegas 9, Premiere, and Cyberlink VideoProducer all support AVCHD now and performance if improving but manipulation of raw footage and encoding can take a very long time and needs a relatively robust computer to be feasible.

I plan to setup a Core i7 setup to handle the AVCHD format which shouldn't be a problem.

The flip side of using DV tapes is that it will take 1:1 time to capture to the format at the beginning (ie 60min of footage takes 60min to capture) but you capture to more user friendly formats in the process, hence, you save a lot of time of work flow and post production. You also have ability to use earlier version of video editing software to handle it.

Good luck!!!!

[Michael Scrip @ Dec 26th 2008 2:02AM]

I'm still rockin' MiniDV tape...

Pros: Easy to edit files, instant archive (put the tape on the shelf)
Cons: Long capture time

One question: With all these new camcorders recording to SD cards or hard drives... what do you do with the original footage when you're done? I know monster hard drives are cheap... do you just back it all up to external hard drives and delete the camera?

[nikster @ Dec 26th 2008 4:02AM]

"do you just back it all up to external hard drives and delete the camera?"

Yes.

[LloydChiro @ Dec 31st 2008 11:51AM]

Yes, and burn them to DVDs for an extra backup (raw files) or to a DVD to watch if it's worth watching with other people.

[Alexander_D @ Dec 26th 2008 2:57AM]

The best HDD camcorder is a flash memory camcorder.

[solmar @ Dec 26th 2008 3:41AM]

Right now, it only makes sense to get a high-def (HD) camcorder, since SD is pretty much old school. Thing is, the AVCHD codec used in HDD camcorders, even when the bitrate is pumped up to its full 24mbps, still has some very disturbing motion artifacts when compared to HDV on tape-based camcorders. Tape based isn't bad, the media is cheap, the quality is the best, editing is mucho easier, and you get automatic archival. The only downsides are the linearity of the tape and doing tape swaps. The Canon HV30 is a great choice for tape high-def.

But if you're *really* stuck on HDD camcorders, the two major players are Canon and Sony (same for tape, really). They're quite similar in image quality, with Canon having higher (but questionable) bitrate and framerate options, which helps in low light (to a degree... you get more motion blur in return). For Canon, go with the HF10/HF100, which are small and memory-based, but sadly lack a viewfinder (bad for battery life and outdoors, where the LCD is useless). For Canon HDD-based, go for the HG21, which has everything (yay, a viewfinder), but is a bit bulkier (the HG11 is the same, no viewfinder, less capacity). For Sony, the SR12/11 (only difference is capacity). Look on camcorderinfo.com for details.

I've owned both tape and HDD high def camcorders, and I can say that while the HDD made transfers to computer easier, the editing was a royal pain, and the weird artifacts meant that I had to avoid taking shots that might lead to said artifacts. While tape is "only" 1440x1080, the real resolution is actually quite close. I'm also a bit afraid of shaking the HDD camcorder too much, since my friend has the same model and it died within weeks, something that people need to consider if you want to use it for things like sports.

[Jeff R @ Dec 26th 2008 3:42AM]

ahhhhh die AVCHD!!!!

just got a canon hg20 and love it. i have a sony hdc100(or something like that) as well, and have been trying to get a quality mac program to run avchd (new imovie blows). final cut express is nothing but headaches because it dosent auto sense the hg20. its been what, 2.5 years with AVCHD and this format still struggles...? my windows machines, however, handle avchd fine... not awesome, but it works.

bottom line, canon hg20 is great. super small too.

[Mirko @ Dec 26th 2008 7:01AM]

Sony HDR TG3 (TG1 for american market)

[Matt Warren @ Dec 26th 2008 7:44AM]

I got the HF11 but I'm returning it for the HF100. $350 for the internal 32Gb just doesn't make sense. And, getting stuff off the SD cards is easier with an external (or Express34) card reader. A hidden hassle with the internal HDD or RAM units is you have to have and hook up the power adaptor as well as the cable.

Using SD cards alone, I can buy a few 16Gb cards for less than the $350 price diff between the HF100 and HF11 and get better transfer connivence to boot. The 24Mbps vs 17 Mbps I, and camcorderinfo.com, found nearly indistinguishable.

[Sam Zebian @ Dec 26th 2008 7:53AM]

I just got a HD SSD Camcorder instead of the HDD one I was going to get by Sony. IDK about HDD camcorders, but this SSD one is amazing! It's a Canon HF-11, and it's light and tiny. I think I will only be getting SSD camcorders from now on, since they're quieter than HDD camcorders (no camcorder noises while recording, like an HDD noise showing up in the video.

Also, HDD camcorders can break easily (even though they have those accelerometers to stop the HDD's when they fall), theres still a chance of it breaking (like shaking it a little while recording)

Only downside to SSD camcorders (at least with mine) is that the internal memory is SLOW for transferring to your PC. SD cards with good transfer speeds is the only remedy. other than that, it's a bit better than a Hard drive camcorder, and it should get better battery life (mine gets only 1 hour though, 1080p video and a small battery)

[Sean Shrum @ Dec 26th 2008 8:18AM]

Dump the tape! Go to flash memory...I adopted MiniDV 10 years ago (with my Sony) an this is what I found.

3 problems:

1: Most mics on cameras can 'hear' and will record the motor pulling the tape...it's annoying as hell in playback (unless you plan on taking a external mic everywhere you go).

2. Tapes, if not handled with care and stored in a clean room like temperature controlled environ will harden/become brittle (like all tapes do) causing artificats on playback cuz the tape isn't traveling over the read heads properly.

3. I refer to the case of VHS vs DVD....no instant access to your scenes on tape: FF...REW...FF...REW... = tape wear

I now have the Samsung SC-HMX20C model (my Sony batts died and the issues above pushed me to get a new camcorder) and so far like the ability it gives me in the form factor it has (touchscreen lcd is great, HD/SD/Photo mode, good selection of recording modes, and it's light weight is great for attaching the thing to a monopod and lifting over walls or crowds, however their docking base sucks...hard to get it on there just right). Note: This model has a photo mode...the cheaper $250 model does not.

[Sean Shrum @ Dec 26th 2008 8:27AM]

Forgot to add...

The Samsung has a built-in 8g mem along with the SD reader (which currently has a 8gig card in it)...

When plugged into a PC, it displays as 2 USB drives...one for the internal mem...one for the card mem.

I just wrote a autorun + batch script that launches when I 'dock' the camcorder on my desk to 'move' the photos and video to my storage drive. Easy. Automatic.

[gadjitfreek @ Dec 26th 2008 9:28AM]

I am still using my 5-year-old Sony TRV-22 mini-DV standard def camcorder for all of my serious work. Can't beat tape, and this thing has great color and excellent picture quality. I even had the CCD replaced when it fried rather than go for a new HD camcorder because it works so well. I use a Sanyo C6 SD-card camcorder for YouTube stuff.

[Chris @ Dec 26th 2008 9:36AM]

"I've been looking for a decent HDD-based camcorder. I just want to use it for normal everyday use, and maybe to record some live performances, like dance shows and stuff like that. I'm not looking to spend a fortune, and I'm obviously looking for the biggest bang for my buck. Thanks for any advice!"

Get an HG20/HF11, the wide angle lens attachment, a rode videomic, and a top handle of some sort and you'll be fine.

Why all this? Consumer level camcorders desperately need a wider field of vision...especially at a concert. The videomic because the onboard microphones sound like crap. If you've got steady hands then you can possibly forget the handle. Just be careful because depending on where you're going they may or may not allow you to record. If they allow you to record, then you're good to go with all that stuff.