Microsoft accused by EU of harming web browser competition, again
By Thomas Ricker 
posted Jan 19th 2009 3:49AM
posted Jan 19th 2009 3:49AM
"Microsoft's tying of Internet Explorer to the Windows operating system harms competition between web browsers, undermines product innovation and ultimately reduces consumer choice."Microsoft has 8 weeks to reply to the charge. It's worth noting that while Apple bundles its Safari browser with OS X, Apple commands a much, much smaller share of the operating system and web browser markets globally, particularly outside of the US. The EU's ruling does, perhaps, shed some light on why Apple's App Store is suddenly stocked with a variety of browsers for the hot selling iPhone, eh? Regardless, we have a feeling that the Norwegian cats behind Opera are feeling pretty smug right about now; Google too, as it kicks back licking its Chromium chops on the road to dominating "The Cloud."
[Thanks, Marcus]
What's a viable alternative to bundling? If you just install all of them, you'll only confuse users, none of them and they won't be able to get on the internet.
The alternative would be an icon called "Internet" which, when clicked, asks the user "Which browser would you like to use as your default?".
The available options could either be already bundled by prior agreement with the various ISVs, or could download when selected.
Cheers, big ears,
Luke
Lol if you dont bundle then people cannot even get on the internet! lol.
i doubt everyone is going to start walking around with firefox setups on their usb's.
I'd say the European Commission got a pretty good taste of the M$ gravy train and don't want to get off.
I agree. This is stupid. How will someone who doesn't know much about computer know how to browse the internet? Besides, how will they be able to download firefox or other installers without a pre-installed browser? -_-"
The first place i go on the internet when i install windows:
www.ie7.com
Apart from being stupid for the reasons above, what is the point of this? Nobody deliberately buys the N editions of Windows that don't include media player so why does the EC believe that anyone would buy a copy of Windows without a browser? Also, with a declining share of the browser market, does it really matter if IE is bundled? It's pretty hard to argue that IE is stifling innovation in the browser market when you have Firefox.
It's a shame Opera couldn't find a better way of competing. I struggle to see how it's Microsoft's fault that Opera never took off when Firefox has demonstrated how easy competition in the browser market is.
The fanboys at Slashdot are going to have a field day with this one.
The only thing i see that they might could possibly do is to ask the user which browser he wants installed during the windows installation, although that would do nothing for store bought systems with windows already installed.
I actually considered that, but I think even that would confuse a lot of people, they want internet, and don't know or care what a firefox is.
This is another reason not to bother with changing it - the people who aren't changing, by and large, don't care. They don't care or necessarily even know that sites don't show up quite correctly.
I think, since the people who complain about it are primarily web developers (myself included, I am just such a bitching developer), they should just stop developing for IE, accept the cut in usage, and hope people finally see a reason to change.
Geez, and i thought IT tries to be innovative and think about how to deal with problems. Is it me or could it be just as simple as Sony does with their crapware and give a simple options menu during the installation? Just add a small menu about what software you want to see installed and done, simply add Opera/IE/FF/Chrome you as consumer check what you feel like and there you are.
And that the N-edition has no costumers, no shit since MS prices the normal and N edition the same ofcourse nobody will choose for a stripped version. I dont get why Neelie Kroes doesn´t hit MS on the head regarding this. Further I dont get why people are aruing about this, MS chooses deliberately to integrate everything in eachother so they have no option to seperate the core from whatever is glued around it. If it worked modular like all the Linux flavours out there it wouldn´t be an issue though that doesn´t fit MS´s business plan.
@Hazard
Postcommunist EU bureauc-rats do not know how else to make money. They have multitude of different taxes fees and fines to fool GATT. Not only M$ train is victim. For US cars for example total of taxes and various registration fees makes almost 100% so it is like buying 2 cars - one for yourself and free one for EU bureauc-rat. OTH corporate taxes are low and pretty simple to calculate as most of the taxes pays retail customer. If customer is not buying due to recession then they have to fine corporations for whatever reason to keep cash flow running
I wouldn't suppose the EU are against any bundled browser - it is more likely that they're requesting more independence from the OS. Remember before you reply that Microsoft is the Nixon of the IT industry:
- Stole Internet Explorer. Said they'd give the developers (Spyglass) part of the revenue, then gave it away for free.
- Pretty much "invaded" the internet. Broke standards in IE to make pages only work with Windows, and take the internet for themselves. Used IE's status as a bundled browser to make it happen. Killed of Netscape in the process, who couldn't keep up with the foul play.
- Threatened to cut off OEMs who would not distribute IE and keep it on the desktop
They lied, cheated and stole to get IE to dominance. They deserve it.
I see a lot of whining, but no thinking in this thread (save for a few exceptions).
Microsoft can easily provide a small application, which when run, give the user a choice as to which browser should be downloaded and installed automatically. It's not rocket science.
But that's not the problem here. If the EU claim is anything like the US case from ages past, then Engadget are just fueling the fire (which is not a surprise at this point). The biggest problem is not about having Windows to come with IE. It's about the ability to remove windows, just like any other program. In fact, Microsoft can bloody well keep the libraries as a separate package, so that IE or any other application that wants it, can still render HTML (and they can preserve ABI this way as well). They could provide an abstract library, so that other vendors can fill in if the user wants to remove IE and its libraries, but I don't expect that much of Microsoft.
And @E71, just because you don't like the EU's policies, don't make retarded remarks. Stay on your side of the Atlantic, and we will stay on ours. I'd prefer an agency that is at least trying to look after my well being, rather than one thats doing everything in its power to ignore me and make my life miserable.
@hazard
I really think that has to be it. That or some rabid fanboy got to them. But the smart option is to follow the money. I wonder if this is what the 10-year fiscal plan looks like:
2006 - Call Windows Media Player anticompetitive - Collect $350m from Microsoft
2007 - If 2006 plan successful, find more reasons to milk money from Microsoft
2008 - Make up some BS about not providing info to 3rd parties - Collect $1.35b
2009 - Claim Internet Explorer anticompetitive - Collect $1.5b
2010 - Claim Wordpad anticompetitive - Collect $1.8b
2011 - Claim Paint anticompetitive - Collect $20 (it sucks so bad we can't justify more than that)
2012 - Claim Clock will cause apocalypse..skip Dec 21 and collect $2.5b
2013 - Claim bundling wallpaper and screensavers is anticompetitive - collect $2.6b
2014 - Fine Microsoft for repeat offenses - collect $10b
2015 - Retire. Send underpant gnomes copy of above, label document as Step 2.
Hmmm... a couple of things.
Regardless of ones opinion on IE (and I don't like it one bit), for Microsoft to NOT bundle a browser would be weak sauce indeed. Considering that every modern OS bundles a browser, why should MS be made to pay because it's doing the same thing, because they're the big boy? The most amusing part of the whole 'browser bundling' as anti-competitive argument is that browsers are free, and an essential part of every modern OS. The EU is OVERLY reactionary to the whole browser thing. I understand what the EU is doing (and often agree with them), and in general think that such a regulatory body is a good thing, but the IE case has always struck me as a bit too much.
As a side note: Engadget, that story about alternative browsers is a NON story, as explained here...
http://www.rgbfilter.com/?p=275
Although classified as apps on the iTunes store, they're merely plug-ins for Mobile Safari, as they DON'T install their own version of WebKit, but add certain functionality TO WebKit when launched through their icons instead of the default Safari launcher.
So it seems like the winds of opinion on Engadget have turned all anti-competitive and Microsoft-loving. Stockholm syndrome?
I am on OS X but I recently installed Windows 7 and wondered HOW THE HELL Microsoft got away with that, given that they have been found guilty of anti competitive behavior in the past.
- You get IE - fair enough, you need a browser
- You don't get Google. Type anything in the search field and it goes to MS Live search. Next EU lawsuit, I here ye comin... there is some way to configure IE so that it uses Google but it's so complicated I am sure normal users can't figure out how.
- Try to find a way to download Firefox from MS live search - you can't! It will lead you to some spam "free download" page. Is live search really that bad, or... could it, ahem, be intentional?! What would my mom do if faced with a whole page of bad search results - she would try one or two, get confused, and stick with IE.
The only reason I see that MS is not getting hammered with lawsuits is that their lobbies in Washington have the responsible political bodies safely in their back pocket. This is ridiculous, and I'd guess even outright illegal behavior for a monopolist.
Apple bundles Safari but they are using Google for search, and if you type in download Firefox, it takes you to the correct page and off you go. In addition, Apple does not have a near-monopoly on operating systems so they do not fall under anti trust regulations.
i completely agree with your point, if a company decides to bundle their own software with their own OS, its completely fair. thats like saying Microsoft is encouraging and anti-competitive environment by only letting xbox 360 games play on the xbox 360, hell at least microsoft gives the option of installing another web browser. on microsoft's part, it would be fair not to not even allow Internet acess to the OS without IE, which they were were kind not to do.
im typing this on opera via windows 7, and i've been a great supporter of opera for a few good years now, with opera stickers all over my laptop. I'm also a big microsoft supporter with an xbox 360, windows 7 on all my PCs, and a genuine interest in other Microsoft products, software or hardware (yay surface). but when it comes to web browsers, internet explorer just hasn't been my default choice, this does not mean id expect them to pre-install opera on each computer just because I like it. i think opera could use some marketing, though i've allready converted half my school into opera. though i must admit, this beta of IE on windows 7 looks amazing, especially with my windows live essentials toolbar.
EU = fbs. Just download the browser of your choice and get rid of IE. Are you kidding me?
Well the only completely fair method would be for the EU to make ever single PC maker in the EU sell machines with Windows, OSX, and every flavor of Linux and BSD preinstalled. That way nobody has any reason to bitch about what OS, browser, media player, etc is pushed upon the unknowing consumer. Then again every machine would cost a lot more because every machine would have to be a Mac so Apple didn't get its shit all bent out of shape about OSX being installed on a non Apple machine but I'm sure the EU could provide some stipend for buyers from all the money they got from Microsoft.
Maybe EU should also sue microsoft for bundling notepad, windows firewall, windows media player, sound recorder, calculator etc. This move is not to protect the customers' interest but sotware companies. As customers, we like as many free stuff bundled in our software as possible to increase the value of the software. If we dont like any of the bundled software, we can either uninstall it, not use it, or buy other better software.
this is stupid.
Have you ever tried to uninstall Explorer? Do it - I double dare you.
You can. As an executable it's easily removed from the system (Add/Remove feature). But a lot of dlls are used elsewhere, so they might stay on the system.
How the hell could they say something stupid like this?!!?!
Every OS has a bundled browser! After installing the OS, you can download the browser of your choice!!
Isn't Apple harming the competition with Safari on all the Macs... And isn't Linux harming the competition with Firefox pre-installed !!!
This is seriously stupid !
Perhaps the should next sue Apple or bundling safari. Oh, and car makers should be sued for bundling their brand of Air conditioning. Or maybe a failing government is just desperate for money, and dont care who they take it from.
Linux has no pre-installed browser. In most distros during installation there is a menu asking which browser you want. Depending on previous choices (KDE, Gnome...) there is a default selection. Why can't Microsoft do the same?
And there is not a market of notepads, mainly because notepad and wordpad are so stupidly basic that noone uses them for stuff that would make a non-free editor worth. And none of those apps are free. You pay for the calculator, the notepad, windows (not)firewall and all that.
Have you ever tried removing Notepad? :P
Seriously. It's a protected Windows file. So lame.
How the HELL did Jash end up high ranked after the author (Thomas Ricker) went out of his way to explain WHY this is different?
Sometimes I feel really sorry for Engadget's writers. No matter how obvious you make something, someone's bound to miss the point. People who can't tell the difference between Apple and Microsoft have a few screws loose or were born after 2000.
I tinks da problem being is dat de micron soft operation sisterms as a monopolie, den by de fault monopolie ons da brow-swears cauz peoples arr too dumb to no any odder tin.
(best read with a hillbilly voice)
It's simple. If windows did not come with a web browser... imagine this
You install Windows... and then what... you have no web browser to download the latest drivers, let alone a web browser.
I am glad that IE cannot be removed. For one it doesn't change anything, it's not that few MB that you save on your 2TB HDD will make any difference in your life. Also, I am sure you will have malware that comes and uninstall your web browser and IE, then you are are screwed.
Sure, many of us have these 20 or so computers... but most people don't.
@Twitchy
OMG! What would I do?? I do not know how to install another Web browser that I have had downloaded while using IE!!!!
I'm such a retard!
Seriously, I do not mind letting IE installed, since some websites just don't work with other Web browsers (i.e. Chrome).
I have IE, Firefox, and Google Chrome installed on my laptop, and follow the following steps:
1. Open the webpage on Google Chrome
2. If it does not work, open it on Firefox
3. If it does not work, open it on IE
4. If all else fails, kick the router and yell at Tech Support.
These people should stop treating us like if we were so dull and gullible.
We can make our own freaking minds!!!!
- fLim
If it DIDN'T bundle Internet Explorer with Windows, how the hell would we get to www.getfirefox.com 30 seconds after loading the machine for the first time ? :)
Leave em be.
@Stuart I agree every time I load windows onto anything. I open internet explorer only to Google Firefox and install that :-)
Exactly what I mean!
I can't agree more... Windows Explorer explores windows... Internet Explorer explores the internet... EU has a problem with that in an OS??
Firefox DVDs can be given out in stores for nearly free or included in new PCs by OEMs ..so either way the EU companies hoping to make money off selling a browser would be out of luck.
The fact that there is at least one free web browser available negates any claim that IE stifles competition. Why would anyone pay for an EU company's browser when they can get Firefox for free? So Firefox should be accused of stifling competition too then.
I'll tell you that Adobe never accused Microsoft of competing with Photoshop by including MS Paint .. it's because Photoshop is such a superior product that people are willing to pay for it.
JS -->
Excuse me? But how would that be better? Then Firefox would get an unfair lead.
click start orb and write cmd in the search box and hit enter
write the following commands:
cd c:\
ftp releases.mozilla.org -A
cd /pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/latest-3.0/win32/en-US/
bin
mget *
(enter y for files you need like Firefox%20Setup%203.0.5.exe)
open c:\ and run the file Firefox%20Setup%203.0.5.exe
Boom, you installed Firefox with no need to run IE
Microsoft can simply give you the option on the welcome screen to download your favorite browser
JS --> so either way the EU companies ...
Opera is a Norwegian company, so not part of the EU.
@JS
Actually, Microsoft would bundle a better version of Paint if they could. It's called Paint.net and is currently being worked on by Microsoft even though it started out as a student project at MIT. It is a really good free alternative although it isn't as good as Photoshop. It is what Paint would be by now if they wouldn't have to face lawsuits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint.net
This was a student project from Washington State University... not MIT, people away from MIT are smart too.
I think thats a bit rough.
They give you the choice to use the web browser of your choice.
How would you get a new web browser if the internet weren´t available to you because there were no browser you could use.
I really don´t like EU and I live in a EU country so I don´t have any choice but to accept everything they do.
Not having a choice over software products means you aren't able to distinguish between 'don't like' and 'like'.
This really doesn't make sense. They have to stick something with it, it's not like you can walk into a store and buy a CD with Chrome or Firefox on it. Though at the very least it would be nice if you could completely remove IE from windows.
Why not, during Windows setup, just ask the user which browser they want? The OS could then go out, grab the installer, and install it as the default browser? This is just like IE's setup where it asks you which search engine you want as default.
If you completely removed IE, you'd lose windows explorer. That would be kind of bad.
@frogboy: That's the problem. There's no reason that a file manager should require an internet browser to work.
@Frogboy
Microsoft merge the two to prevent people from telling what to do, this caused nothing but vulnerabilities for better half of decade.
true say
"Why not, during Windows setup, just ask the user which browser they want?"
Why should Microsoft be supporting other people's products?