So we've been watching this sketchily-sourced piece from
VentureBeat's MG Siegler that claims Google was specifically asked to avoid implementing multitouch by Apple over
patent concerns bounce its way around the web today, and while we didn't want to contribute to the echo chamber effect without being able to lend any authority to the story, it's starting to get stupid: John Gruber is chiming in that he'd additionally heard that Apple warned Google against including a 3.5mm headphone jack on the
G1 after Cupertino was shown a prototype, which is ridiculous. Fine, we're somewhat willing to accept the complete lack of multitouch on the G1 is a result of Apple's influence, especially considering the
huffy language Apple's been using lately over its intellectual property, but the absence of a straight 3.5mm headphone jack can't be chalked up to any patent issues, since Gruber's source is probably pointing to an Apple patent that covers controlling music via a headphone jack, which in no way prevented HTC from slapping a regular 3.5mm jack on there -- and hell, HTC makes breakout boxes for ExtUSB that expose both a jack and control capability anyway. Furthermore, it's not even remotely clear why Google would be cruising around Infinite Loop with the G1 way ahead of release; as Gruber himself points out, Schmidt recuses himself from board meetings involving iPhone conversations, and we'd expect the courtesy to go both ways.
iTunes, iPod, music, your ears... we get it, Apple owns everything with a melody nowadays, but c'mon, now: at the time the G1 was designed --
many moons ago -- attitude toward the importance of 3.5mm jacks on phones was significantly different than it is today, and we can understand why HTC and Google could've reasonably thought that ExtUSB was good enough. Today, that attitude wouldn't fly -- indeed, HTC's own Touch HD does a real jack, and going forward, we'd expect most Android hardware to have them, too. Talented engineers can usually design their way around patent issues, and we're certain Google and HTC have both the legal and technical muscle to deal with Apple -- so can we please all stop playing lawyer and get back to mocking up the
Dream G2?
[Via
Daring Fireball]
posted Feb 10th 2009 6:14PM
LOL. Funniest article all day long. Thanks, Engadget.
You know it could be true, Google CEO is also board director of Apple. Probably He told HTC to remove it in the final design.
Probably you should try reading the article.
Also, I have to say that as much as I love my iPhone, if Apple's allowed to stifle other companies' designs, we may never end up seeing the device that beats it. And Apple won't have to compete by adding missing features like FRICKIN MMS.
MMS ? thought it was only copy/dumb/paste?
Does any company has a phone patent?
@Ryan Trevisol
Inventions are protected with patents (like it or not). Having a patent protects your hard work and investment from being thrown completely down the tube by competitors. The multi-touch thing took a significant amount of resources for Apple for perfect. Without patent protection no company would invest any money in developing new technology because someone else would just sweep in after the release and make a cheaper alternative.
So did Apple scare HTC out of including 3.5mm jack on the HTC Touch as well? There are PLENTY of HTC phones that do have a 3.5mm jack and none of it was ever considered a conspiracy before today.
Google wanted in-line headphone controls, and since Apple patented that functionality through the 3.5mm headphone jack, the G1 fell back on the mini usb for maximum funtionality. Just a company protecting its IP, nothing to see here, move along.
@catachip
The problem is companies are patenting things that are not the result of hard work other than the hard work that goes into finding ways to patent things that are already in common use or are so obvious that they work the way a five-year-old would assume they would work.
Patenting the gesture of moving something by pushing it is not genius.
Patent headphone controls on 3.5mm jack? Creative's Nomads had headphone controls on 3.5mm jack even before the iPod came out in 2001. There's no way Apple can front on that.
I control my music through my headphones on my Nokia N95, which came before the iPhone. There's no way Apple patented that. Seriously, some of these patents are getting ridiculous. I know that people want their hard work protected, but some patents are just crazy.
As, ahem, 'Albanian_Killa' says, my N95 had that functionality. In fact, I have plugged IPHONE headphones into it, and the stupid little lump thing works as a send/recieve button.
Just to add what's been said... but my old sony walkman tape player from 1992 or so had controls on the headphones (well, on the line)...
The specific specks included microphone capabilities along with the controls. They use a four contact 3.5mm jack for volume, pause, play, skip, back, and an in-line microphone on the new iPod Touch and both iPhones (except for volume controls).
Lots of mp3, CD, and even a couple cassette players may have been able to control playback through the 3.5mm jack, but I think Apple is the only one to use it for microphone input as well. If they did in fact patent the idea, then Google likely went with the ExtUSB to allow for both headsets and in-line controls (can an ExtUSB port use in line controls?) without infringing on anyone's IP.
In any case, since the 3.5mm jack is available for use to anyone, wouldn't any modification be free to use as well? That's Apple for you...
@Jimmy Jones
Self help to answer your questions :)
http://doestheiphonesupportcopyandpasteyet.com/
and
http://doestheiphonesupportmmsyet.com/
Ryan, you can not be serious.
There are already countless devices out on the market that destroy the iPhone in terms of capabilities and functionality.
Touch HD.
Touch Pro (with a custom ROM from XDA-Devs/PPC Geeks)
Omnia
Xperia
to name a few
@ who?
Yeah, that's existing art in the Nokia gear anyhow. Music controls, call controls, microphone - all in line.
@who?:
In 2005 when i bought a Nokia 6630 i got a headset with a microphone with it. And i'm sure that wasn't the first one ever so that isn't a new invention.
I like you guys and gals....I really do.... but when you start using sentences like:
"without being able to contribute any authority to the story,"
I think you forget that a large proportion of your stories are built around rumor and innuendo.
Just saying...... let's not take ourselves to seriously all the time.
Rumor and innuendo we can at least internally substantiate -- when we post something, it gains credibility, even if we're openly skeptical about it. We're very careful to not run around repeating everything we hear, and we had a spirited debate about the Apple / Google story today. We think long and hard about this stuff, mindlessly repeating things is the easiest way to trash our reputation.
NIlay do you guys have an application process? Because... I love sitting around at work and debating. Buttttt that's not what I get paid for. I would love to get paid to debate electronics rumors....
They are only reporting the story this way because Gizmodo beat them to it... HOURS AND HOURS ago.
@Tarex Trust me, if we'd wanted this would have been up at 7AM this morning. We've been talking about it all day. Again, we're not going to just repeat things for the sake of repeating them, especially not rumors with a source this sketchy.
So you didn't answer my question...
@TareX Come on, man.
"We're very careful to not run around repeating everything we hear"
I wish you were that careful with what you frequently make up. And don't worry about your credibility, it's already down the drain.
@giuliop: You need to cite specific examples when you say things like that. "with what you frequently make up" is some serious language, and I'm not going to let this comment sit without an explanation of what was meant by it. Understood?
"You need to cite specific examples when you say things like that. "with what you frequently make up" is some serious language, and I'm not going to let this comment sit without an explanation of what was meant by it. Understood?"
Did you guys forget the imfamous Blackberry Storm incident where you did take somthing that for all intents and purposes was "made up" and ran it anyway, only to get a monster backlash to the point where you threatened to cut comments out completely?
Nope -- we talked about that quite a bit too, and ultimately decided to run it as total hearsay and included a poll to try and gauge the truth because there were multiple conflicting sources. Go read it again -- it's actually a perfect example, since no matter how hard we tried to present it skeptically, people still took it the wrong way.
Nilay Patel & Chris Ziegler, why don't you guys add a little "Rate This" to every article you guys at Engadget write? This way you see how people really feel about what you write in order to improve your article writings in general.
I'm absoultly sure that an Article like this one would've got "Lowest Ranked" in less than 10 minutes. You can't assume that 20 readers are all wrong and 5 of you are always right! Otherwise each one of you writers would have owned their own business and became a millionair by now, but for all what I know that you and us read a lot about technology, and sometimes the readers, such as JB here, make more sense than you do. You are all great at writing but not so much at chosing the right content to post, somtimes.
If you are very convinced that what you guys write makes sense then you shouldn't worry much about being low ranked.
Saad, I have to say that is a silly idea. Just look at how the ratings on comments have completely failed - there are so many people who low-rank any comment that appears to support Apple without anyone checking to see if the comment is accurate and factual, is genuinely a troll, etc. The rankings on comments simply do not at all reflect the content or validity or worth of a comment, they simply reflect how the Engadget crowd (which is mostly prejudiced against Apple) is trigger-happy with their rankings and how they do not actually read a comment and judge it fairly before ranking it.
The same would happen with article rankings - the rankings would never reflect how good an article is! Any article that even mentioned Apple would get low-ranked, you just know it would, and that alone should demonstrate why the article-ranking idea is not a good one. The same would happen with any article that dared to question Android in any way. And as has been pointed out, sometimes authors are criticised for doing something they plainly are not (like substantiating rumours) and this inability of many readers to properly comprehend and analyse what has been written, would cause the rankings to be utterly meaningless.
jeez guys, you took a mostly reasonable comment from JB and took it too far. besides, the way i read that sentence, it's saying it would be hard for them to lend credibility, so they were hesitant to comment on it, because some people would take it the wrong way and blow things out of proportion. while i will side with engadget in this case, i would like to look at the feasibility of a ranking for stories. you could display a pure number, or better, have a threshold that increases with the number of people that view or comment on the story. and remember: this wouldn't just be a way to put down articles people don't like, it could also be used to praise great articles, of which you guys have plenty.
that is all. unless i forgot something...
i did forget something :/
can we lower the thresholds on comment rankings back to where they were? i want highest ranked back.
ty,
maveric101
"I'm not going to let this comment sit without an explanation of what was meant by it. Understood?"
should be reworded to
"I am curious to find examples of where this is true and hope to find that you are wrong."
i mean, come on, are you 15 years old? 'Understood?' ?? wtf
I hate gizmodo, totally gay
I'm sorry, but I find that really hard to believe
I don't. I love conspiracy theories. Remember that "Major Corporation" who was *rumored* to be floating Psystars legal battle with Apple... Cough. Google. Cough.
Just kidding. I dunno wtf im talking about. I do like Dan Brown though. Good author.
elephants > the moon.
hope the G1 can do well in the marketplace and improve enough to be a true competitor to the iphone
I thought the first assertion was pretty stupid; why would Google intentionally cripple their product unless they felt strongly that Apple might have legal grounds against them (rather than just "being nice") ... but the headphone jack thing... wtf?
Because until Android is established they don't want Apple throwing their toys out of the pram and changing search providers or locking them out of the iPhone. D'OH!
RIP steve jobs
Control music via headphone jack? Hasn't Sony been doing that for ages? I know for a fact I saw that sort of thing on portable CD players and Mini Disc players from Sony.
Sony's been doing a lot of stuff way before apple but i guess the "techies" on engapple don't count anything without a fruit on it as innovation.
Apple's patent is for the headphone jack with four contacts (which also can carry audio from a microphone). Since Google wanted the G1 to be able to hook up a headset and control the music in line, they had to go with the ExtUSB.
GAH.
How can Apple patent something that has been used on at least one device before them?
I get the feeling that that's not a problem with companies, but with the US patent office, because from what I hear, they have an attitude that is summed up as 'Award everything and let the courts sort it out.'
Actually a full moon could also be the answer. You see, when a human sees a full moon... Nevermind.
I will go back to my cave now.
http://www.ukgameshows.com/page/index.php?title=Who_Wants_to_be_a_Millionaire%3F
See under "Key Moments"
LOL..wut?
all they have left to do is pattent the phone part of a cell phone
best. tv. caption. evar.
show ask the audience or 50/50. maybe call google to get the answer as well.
Tisk tisk....Apple is exactly like Microsoft. SCARE TACTICS and all.
Engadget, you've very much sidestepped the issue here. Forget the whole headphone jack issue, its the multitouch issue which is the big thing here, the thing that you said you're willing to believe.
The fact that Apple would lean on Google to remove that feature is dreadful anti consumer behavior and something that you shouldn't be passing off in the way you are in this article.
Even if the original stories does have some errors, I for one am glad that its come out and will hopefully bring Apples behavior to light
What more can be said about the multitouch situation at this point? Realistically, we won't have a better feel for it until the Palm stuff plays out -- not sure how you wanted us to cover it here. This is much, much more about striking down FUD that Apple's got a lock on 3.5mm jacks.
Well the only other place I've bumped into this story today (Dailytech) didn't mention the 3.5mm jack issue. Guess I just see the multi touch thing as the bigger issue here and would have preferred you put more weight on that.
But hey, thats just my opinion on it and I guess thats why you put the comments section here
The g1 not having multi touch made me angry for a while but thanks to Jesus Freak the g1 has a multi touch browser, auto rotate, and many other features that should have been included. Thats the nice thing about open source, the best features come from the community.
My computer has 3.5mm jacks, and so does my Nokia, so why can't HTC? This is ridiculous. I'd say that HTC wants to make more money off accessories more than anything.
Yup, ExtUSB is HTC's thing. They would probably love it if all headphones switched to ExtUSB. You can't really blame Google for it.
D: Haters
I can live without 3.5 mm since my first two mobile device is GBA SP (It's not a phone obviously but I use it to play movies with that device that I got from liksang) and T-mobile SDA (HTC Tornado).
Because Apple owns and patented multitouch! (They patented, but don't own or use love; just as they did with a bajillion of other cool things)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_touch
Get a clue, you appletards.
oops! I forgot my /sarcasam.
I have a mac, but I really think this is pushing it...
oh. carry on, then.
Apple needs to get its nose out of its own a$$.
No one mentioned Apple name a few years ago, before the iPhone; now Apple have everyone running scared with patent protections. How is it that Apple can patent something that have been around for decades?
I guess no one thought Apple would patent the stuff they did.
Companies usually patent new things, like a brand new type of jack for connecting a headphone in for more functions, not a modified headphone jack that includes another contact.
Something tells me many of the larger companies are not too impressed with Apple's tactics lately.
Honestly I can believe this to an extent, I really don't think Google has any interest in selling phones, they have an interest in a platform that they can't be excluded from.
There is no question, Apple and Google are in bed and Google has shown a lot of interest in the iPhone. The iPhone got Google Voice Search and Google Earth before the G1, it has a Google custom web app for almost every one of their services, in generally I think Google has much more interest in developing for the iPhone over Android but they couldn't let themselves get boxed into the iPhone long term, they needed an open out that wasn't dependent on Microsoft or Apple. That platform wasn't going to happen unless Google bit the bullet first and released hardware.
The iPhone is Google's first love, the G1 is just their backup plan incase things don't work out with Apple they aren't left out in the cold and their bargaining chip incase Apple gets too controlling over the iPhone, they can always threaten to pull their iPhone apps and support Android exclusively. At this point it is not in their interest to piss of Apple though, hence, a crippled G1 that is just enough to get the platform moving without pissing off Apple.
Enough with the G1 and iPhone comparisons.
It's like comparing ***removed due to copyright laws*** and oranges.
here's your intarnet, sir.
I can already smell Apple going down the hill like it did back in the years.... I mean jeez.. almost everyday, there's the bad and negative news about this company out there... and constantly trying to take over every company out there.
1. Pystar won some Judge rule to keep selling its boxes
2. Palm wants to fight back
3. Apple told Google [Google of all people] to not include all these things in its phone
4. Apple tells car manufacturers they can put multi-touch in car audio units........
I really hope all these news teaches the die hard fanbois about their lifetime membership. Now, the real question is were they paying some1 to hide all these negative stuff all along? who got fed up?
Engadget did bury the Pystar on TUAW, after gleefully reporting on Engadget anytime they suffered a setback.
So, yeah they are still covering for Apple whenever they can.
I agree Engadget did what it intended to do with this article, that is to call FUD on an article regarding 3.5mm jack but frankly just like someone pointed out before me, there should be more emphasis on the removal of multi-touch functionality in g1 due to pressure from Apple.
I think that is very serious but frankly Apple getting a passing comment regarding that is disappointing and also does not help Engadget's perceived reputation of being pro-apple. I mean where is the criticism towards that. As the author pointed out this article was for stopping the FUD, then maybe there should have been another article regarding the multi-touch issue.
Just saying.
As others have pointed out, my Dell DJ had an inline remote control (with its own lcd screen!) through the 3.5mm jack before the iPhone was even a thought...and Sony had similar controls years earlier. Did AAPL somehow manage to patent this too? I can't wait for all these bogus iPhone patents to be invalidated down the line. The USPTO needs to get its head out of its @zz.
I hope the Pre cleans Apple's clock. Unlikely since it's launching on Sprint and AT&T won't kill the iPhone golden goose by launching it on their network. If Palm can sell an unlocked GSM version and undercut the iPhone on price somehow, they would have a winner.
Why would HTC listen to Apple? Is Apple turning into Microsoft now?
What? You mean Apple has never bullied competitors?????
man i wish i had a couple hundred million dollars so i could buy a phone company, and tell apple to suck a dick.
I will invest $50 on your company after it starts.
I want to put some money in telling Apple TO SHARE... THOSE btarts
Apple is amazing, people buy Apple products and then hold it over the rest of the world like some condescending prick. That wouldn't bother me much, nothing different than a Lambo or Porsche driver (just examples!), but people also seem to think that Apple is some feel good non-profit organization bent on destroying the evil tyrannical Windows corporation that eats babies.
They don't call their computers "PC's", their "Apples". No offense to any Mac users who actually uses their Mas, which are undeniably great pieces of equipment.. I know the stereotype probably doesn't apply on Engadget.
But seriously, here's a company that constantly finds reasons to prove to me that they're more interested in keeping a consumer dictatorship on the masses. They're the only company more proprietary than Sony, and things like PsyStar, Multi-touch, the app-store, iTunes, etc. all end up being methods of restricting user choice.
And while a Savvy Mac user can find ways of getting around some of these obstacles, the default Mac plan is to over-price your goods, and then constantly encourage you to buy more goods at ridiculous prices within the system they already sold you.
Even worse, with the app-store, they trick people into thinking they'll have an open forum for utilities that will be groomed and maintained, but what you really get is a buddy-boosting sales platform where a select few amateurs are allowed to rise while the rest of the apps that are any good get slammed down and then replaced by corporate builds.
A long rant, and hardly on subject.. but this article just reminds me how much I fear a google/apple system and how Apple has really been a constricting force on a lot of development.
Until I can legally build an Apple from reasonable parts and until I can see a platform that really encourages creativity and innovation in CONSUMERS from Apple, they'll be the devil.
Albeit a very attractive and functional devil that I still may want to buy. Again this isn't against Apple as a PC, etc. this is Apple as a hypocritical image and user platform.
lol, millionaire pic ftw
Don't believe everything you read folks. There is no way this is true. I mean come on, we know that both Multitouch and the 3.5mm jack thing have prior implementations. Apple isn't trying to pull some vast conspiracy here. The story is bunk.
Whatever, at least the 3.5mm jack has been around for years. HTC just got lazy and stupid.
I think the rating articles would work, although it would further secularize(?) the engadget community, but if we assume that engadget is representative of, at least, this type of crowd then it would be a valuable tool for keeping current.
Did I mention lately that Steve Jobs is a fascist?
When Steve Jobs first introduced the iPhone during his keynote, he said the following:
"...and best of all, we patented it!"
The crowd laughed.
Who's laughing now? Steve Jobs on his pile of money.
Well... He'd try.
Except that every time he laughs, bits of him fall off.
apple, apple, apple..........same old story.
Engadget keep sounding like Fox news everytime they post an apple related comment.
Ah, it's just Apple's way to monopolize the hardware market . . .
Those reading just the tagline would believe this had something to do with not only multi-touch, but the 3.5mm headphone jack, the battery, and the display on the G1.
The tagline I take major issue with because it's half-false.
There isn't anything about Google being scared out of using REMOVABLE batteries in the G1. There isn't anything about the G1 using a display from some particular manufacturer. The tagline insinuates that Apple scared google out of using displays and batteries in the G1.
Simply not true. But, this is assuming the reports are 100% correct. Let's do some fact-checking.
Gruber didn't verify nor say that these facts were true. He said nothing of the sort. The closest thing Gruber said was that the whole thing he saw on VentureBeat jibes with a story he got from a third hand source months ago. He thought it relevant to post the bit that he had gotten a few months ago, but in no way does he say that the story he got months ago was true; he only echos it, saying he didn't publish it at the time because it all seemed unlikely.
The only real thing Apple has any sort of patent on in this case is the iPhone's multi-touch interface. This sort of doesn't hold water as the BlackBerry Storm has multi-touch, the Surface has multi-touch, and it seems every device these days is including multi-touch.
So, really, this could all be *false*.
It doesn't seem worthwhile to include a 3.5 headphone jack alongside extusb since extusb can essentially be used for whatever consumers want the 3.5 jack for - which amounts to really, just being able to use 'standard' head/earphones on their G1. Now, personally - this isn't a huge deal for me because I no longer even own a pair of standard headphones, all my headphones are bluetooth (and i do mean headphones, not earpiece). It's likely that they simply didn't find the need to include it, and I'd agree. I can't really even imagine walking around with wires stringing down from my ears nowadays. The evolution is toward wireless, ie: bluetooth. It may work for Iphone users because this is what they're used to with their Ipods - but it's unnecessary on the G1. I actually applaud HTC for including a non-proprietary jack. I can use my sda, dash AND motorola phone chargers on the G1 - not to mention that I haven't had to buy a new car charger since I owned the Razr when it was released. That's progress. It's like open source hardware. Vs. Apple and their proprietaryEVERYTHING.
So no, I don't believe the 3.5 rumor.
I do however believe the multitouch rumor. It's painfully obvious that the G1's hardware supports it - the fact that it isn't included and hasn't really been 'promised' by Google leads me to believe that Google's inclusion of that feature would possibly be an affront to their deal with Apple. Google would lose a significant chunk of market share if Apple stopped pairing their products with them, so it's a somewhat fair trade off. I won't lose sleep if Google never brings it to the G1. It's perfectly fine without it, and guess what? Android is open so you bet your butt someone will release an app that allows multitouch anyway....when Apple goes after that person/company maybe the community at large will get a real glimpse at what kind of monster the fruit really is.
so if someone back in the day patented the steering wheel, we would have cars with different guiding systems?? That's ridiculous. Apple is just as evil as Microsoft or worse. Let the public decide which phone is better and not be pu$$ies hiding behind patents which are too obvious. Patent the technology..not the gesture..
Or it could be just because HTC's dumbass hardware design practices prohibit the idea of having any sort of standard audio jack in them.
Because you know, an adaptor hanging off of your mobile device looks *much* better than a slightly thicker phone body. Whatever...
Amazing. Every tech news source I've read today reports this as a rumor and nothing more... except for Engadget, who have to bust out the FUD-machine to avoid reporting something that reflects badly on their beloved Apple.
Man, I thought that after the comments on that one post got locked, Engadget had shown its sporting side and decided to act a bit more neutral, but I guess that was just to shut up the commenters for a few weeks, huh?
this story is so lame!
Ok apple goes through great lengths to protect it's shit, but so does
everyone else in the game.
And as for the ever cut&paste crap yall talk about,Apple is just
sitting,watching as the competition thrashes itself,then booya!
Cut&paste like you have never seen before.Oh,by the way, my
touch is being up dated in the back ground.
G1 UK people are still stuck on RC8 (UK version of RC30)
when are the UK peps going to get their update?
without it we wont be able to get the paid for apps
And everyone still thinks that MS is the corporate bully in the IT world...
I think that patents are important, really but if things keep going on like this, soon toilet seat patents will belong to Apple and nobody will be able to release themself from their organic waste without their permission.
-iPoop!
-no, you can't [Apple]
: \
Exactly. This crazy by the way. I though we french were crazy with our "PDG" who sometimes are members of 4 or 5 boards of CAC40 companies but this guy !
I mean Google CEO and President of Apple's board ! Who is this man, God ?
No he's just a very naughty boy.....
Ok my comment was obviously a answer to the very first comment, only as I am a fucktard I missed.
By the way engadget, about this whole Apple Multi-touch patent bed-story you used to read me, SO SAYING NON-SENSE !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multitouch
They are dozens of multi-touch technologies, dozens of patent and some are even Open-source, so basically anyone can multitouch anything.
QUIT THE FUD.
Thank you.