Here she is, fresh off the Saturday Express. Apple's latest Mac Pro is said to be significantly more nimble and entirely easier to upgrade than its Penryn-based predecessor, and while it'll take us a few days yet to check out the former claim, we can already assure you that the second one is valid. Upon unboxing this beast (to be fair, it's not all that monstrous), we immediately dug within the cover to see what was up with Apple's new tray system. Rather than forcing users to squeeze their hands into unfathomably tight places just to pop in a new DIMM or add in a fresh 2TB hard drive, the engineers at Cupertino found a way to place all eight RAM slots on a removable tray, meaning that you can actually take that piece elsewhere and operate under better lighting. The tray was dead simple to remove and replace, and while it's a small inclusion, it's definitely an appreciated one. We'll be stressing this thing out and writing up a more thorough review soon, but for now, enjoy the snapshots / video below and after the break, respectively.
Pure dude doesn't know the difference between Xenon gas and Xeon processors.
There's no reason for Apple to change the case of the MacPro. How do you improve on something that's already perfect? It ain't heavy...it's just Apple excellence.
"That is a joke. Apple share bottom place in the world for quality. They have the highest Warranty claim rate of any manufacturer."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA let me guess... your best friend told you, or you read that on a message board somewhere. well of course it must be true then. im on # 32 piece of apple equipment. ive had 1 problem out of all of that... on an ipod of all things. hdd went bad.
"Apple quality is SH1T. No debate."
yes... who in the world would want to debate you and your excellent debating skills!
People have been posting that Apple's warranty claim rates are the highest in the industry. I've never seen those stats and, having worked in a computer repair & upgrade shop, I find it hard to believe.
I can't find evidence online of such a survey and would love to see pointers. When looking for it, I did find plenty of studies saying that Appl has the highest consumer satisfaction in the industry. See this, for example, from a month ago.
@kctroll: Apple also has the best warranties and the highest levels of customer satisfaction when it comes to tech support issues.
I had a lot more problems with my PowerBook a few years ago than I thought I should. That's why they replaced it with a much newer, much better MacBook Pro for free. And I haven't had a problem with it yet.
And as far as "READ[ing] the NEWS" goes, I think you're on to something. Try it:
I had in mind the (several iterations of) Consumer Reports reviews, in which Apple hardware and tech support consistently rank at the top. While you can't read the whole reviews online without a subscription, you can get an idea from the "Consider Tech Support" portion, here:
I'm not saying nothing ever goes wrong with Apple machines. In fact, I've already admitted to being the owner of an Apple product that had problems. Believe me, I'm a long way from thinking Apple is a perfect company. I am, however, claiming that you're uninformed, a troll, a hypocrite, and a moron. Choke on scorpions, kc. Choke on scorpions.
Personally, I've had a couple of issues with Apple products that were replaced at the store, no questions asked, and I didn't even have a receipt.
Dell may claim better service, but I've personally spent hours on the phone with Dell's shitty Indian support trying to resolve issues that were clearly their fault, such as installing the wrong video card, and claiming I needed to pay for a replacement, then after the support issue crossed the 30 day mark, claiming that it was now too late to fix the problem. That next day thing only applies to their business machines or if you pay for their support plans. You're not getting in next day in home replacement if you have a problem with your $500 Inspiron and didn't purchase their extra warranty; this I can state as a fact.
You can find stuff to back up your argument whatever side you're on, but my personal experience with Apple products has been only positive dating back to 2003 when I got my first iPod.
To me the problem isn't if Apple stuff breaks, it's if it gets fixed. In my experience, it does.
No kidding, 50% of all the macbook around me had to be return for hd failure or screen problems. Maybe 20% on that had to be return again. I dont buy mac anymore (I like to built my own now) but im in motion graphics and TV then all directors and graphic designers around me have macs.
Still I think mac are good products. Its just not my cup of tea anymore... I did pay 3000$ for a goddam G4 in the past but I dont spend that kind of money on computer now because in 6 month it will be obsolete anyway. Spending 1200$ per year on Hardware is the best ratio price/power I have found. Right now the sweet spot is on the i7 2.66ghz cpu. for 900$ you get a monster machine. No need of Xeon, its just silly when only 3D package will profit from 8 cores.
That particular report has been raised a few times recently. There is no problem at all with that report, on its own. The problem is that there have been many, many reports on warranty returns by many different groups, and they all come to different results. Different methodologies, different geographical areas, etc.
It is easy to find reports that state that Apple is #1, same with Sony, and Dell, and HP; conversely it is all to easy to find a report by some group saying that "company X has the highest warranty returns and is therefor least reliable". There is no one accepted measure, and so mentioning one report as though it is the only report is a misleading practice.
yeh I agree, if apple put out a midrange desktop tower they would steal another percent or two from windows market share, but that's apple, money over market share, this is why windows has always been so successful, it's got company's that support it that understand people want the lowest price on the most functional computer, some would argue that apple computers are more functional for the price, but if you delve deep, pc's are always slightly less expensive for what you get
Agreed that Dell's consumer customer support has much to be desired, but since we're talking about a Mac Pro with likely 'applecare' support, I'd compare this to Dell's Business support, which is almost unbeatable. Opting for the 4 year, 24/7 4-hour onsite service is a smart idea for mission critical business systems. Business support give you a line that calls the same support team directly (based in the US). Have a drive failure at midnight? They'll be there to replace it by 4am. That service has saved my butt many times. No additional charge.
Apple doesn't offer any support like that. Not even close.
Apple has had consistently high ratings for reliability in Consumer Reports. Every issue I've read places them at #1. Perhaps things have changed in the past year or two, but I'd like proof.
But the real reason I came to post is that my Aug '06 Mac Pro has slide-out trays for RAM. I don't see how that's difficult to upgrade.
And considering how long in the tooth that case design is that's not a good thing.
It seems to me that the only reason they added the removeable tray was to show some evidence that they actually give a damn about the state of their pro desktop design. Practically speaking it's an almost worthless addition since the Pro upgrade possibilities and frequency at which that happens are minute. I've busted open my old Pro case to upgrade the RAM twice in 5 years.
This appears to have been solely added to give the impression of "progress" when in fact it's more akin to Apple just treading water.
And before anyone rattles off the old "if it ain't broke ..." cliche, you're wrong. There is always a way to make a better design. That's why Apple don't sell blue bubble or lamp iMacs now.
Cash, why would you want to put an ATX board in this machine? If you want to run Windows or Linux the out-of-the-box hardware will do that very well... it's like putting a crap domestic engine into a Ferrari because you don't like the music on the stereo.
It looks harder to change the RAM than the last design IMO. On the last one, each set of four memory slots was on a small removable card. Now you have to remove the whole thing with two HUGE heat sinks attached.
@roach last I checked you CAN use your beloved wave keyboard on amy mac and the same goes for the mouse. Not only that but Logitech actually has a control panel application that integrates very will with OS X so if there is any fancy feature that the logitech hardware has you can configure it and use just like you can on windows. And before anyone starts arguing except for really expensive gaming rigs no computer comes standard with Logitech wave. And if we must look at default keyboard options Dell and pretty much all computer vendors have really cheap peripherals and are terrible to use.
at least it doesnt look like some alien spaceship with a billion blue LED's, a couple of seethrough panels to enjoy the sight of tangled wires and exposed chips, oh and a pc fanboy alongside who cares more about what the pc can benchmark rather than how he can use it.
It just looks like a case with a couple convenient handles on top and good airflow from having a giant vent for a front panel. I'll admit most of Apple's stuff is visually distinctive and often good looking. But this is just an aluminum case.
You can use PC keyboards on Macs, as long as they are USB or Bluetooth. Often you end up with no eject key though. So you have to search the internet for the way on how to turn the eject icon in the menu bar back on (which was turned off with 10.5 or something).
@cg0def I know you can use PC keyboards and mouse on a Macs. But I was taking about Apple's approach to design. Apple design = 75% design 25% ergonomic
Beside Apple hardware is too restrictive for my 3D need. I don't get to choose the video card l want. Rather, Apple choose it for you. l feel sorry for people who has to rely on what Apple release. I mean, these so called workstation doesn't even offer professional quadro cards. Apple has there people by their balls.
"Beside Apple hardware is too restrictive for my 3D need. I don't get to choose the video card l want. Rather, Apple choose it for you. l feel sorry for people who has to rely on what Apple release. I mean, these so called workstation doesn't even offer professional quadro cards. Apple has there people by their balls."
I mean, these so called 3D people doesn't have knowledge of english.
Well the distribution of machines was 40% Macs 55% PCs and about 5% Sun stations and we are talking about something like 5000+ machines. But Macs are very expensive and the tech support is quite inflexible. BTW you posted in the wrong thread.
Even an overclocked 4GHz Quad core cannot come close to a Mac Pro with 8 Xeon cores chewing away at something. For professonals who need the incredible power of an 8 core Xeon workstation, there is really nothing out there better for the money than the Mac Pro.
Which brings me to MY challenge. Try building and equivalent Xeon workstation with the same processors and same features as the Mac Pro for less. It cant be done... I looked hard at my options when I was buying, and Apple is a good 1,500 dollars LESS than their competition! Even if you build one yourself!
Those Xeon quadcores in the Mac Pro are 1000 dollars EACH on newegg so 2,000 dollars just for the processors alone! Hmmm, these new Mac Pros are seeming like a deal now for a lot of people, I bet. At least for those who NEED this kind of power, anyway. For gamers or websurfers, this machine is silly. But for 3D, video, scientific applications, and anything else heavily multithreade... or for someone who runs quite a few programs at the same time, this machine is amazing.
This absolutely insane computing power is why I... as a PC user... bought a Mac Pro, and it has been the best PC I have ever owned, by far.
And I thought that this was targeted at the uber-geeks at Engadget who only think about the specs and lowest price and if it can play Crysis or GTA 4. [just acting like all the other trolls right there] I'm willing to bet that 75% of the people who moan about the bad specs of Macs don't have PCs of those specs.
Why would the pins fail anymore than any other pin connector setup that's only ever unplugged once in the lifetime of the machine? How often do you switch out your ram?
Say what you will about PC users not having computers of the same power, or how this is geared towards people who won't customize computers, that doesn't change the fact that custom hardware like this needlessly increases the complexity and cost of fixing anything. The tray system for the hard drives and such isn't bad, voodoo did something similar with their [now dead?] Omen PC, but the non-standard nature of the motherboard could very easily cause problems. This also screams of the late 80's/early 90's design of putting things like processors on add-in cards. last computer I saw that in was running Pentium III.
I think the chance of something going wrong when you reach your hand inside an old model is more likely than a pin being damaged from the motion of that horizontal sliding.
hum dude you can get the extended warranty which gives you free repairs in the ext 3 years so no it does not suck at all. Plus when I used to work at a fairly large IT department we used to service PC hardware ( gateway + dell ) about 5-10 times more often than we did Macs. And replacing parts on Macs was fairly simple then and even simpler now ( not talking about iMacs ).
People seriously like to "build" their computers still? Really? I hate to break it to you but a manufacturer putting millions of dollars into the testing and design of a system can do FAR more than someone matching specs off Newegg. When you can build parts that are meant to work with each other you end up with a far more impressive result (iMac), something that a system builder can never dream of doing.
Find me a mass installation of computers in a missions critical environment that aren't all Dell or some other major manufacturer. When you start dealing with the big boys, you'll get laughed out of the room if you suggest building your own PC.
That is called "mass production" items are tested together so they can be knocked out cheap in huge quantities.
A pro self build can easily trounce mass produced you obviously just don't know how and need HP/Apple/Dell engineers to do it instead and their eye is purely on profit.
@ utahnkid - I'm not talking about mission-critical environments, of course they'll all be running the same platform all across the board, and you must think i'm an idiot if you think i don't realize that the "big guys" can potentially build a more reliable product (although half their goal is to make the product as cheap to produce as possible). I work in these environments every day.
Perhaps this is just a difference of opinion, but i'm not someone who takes pride in owning the same thing as everyone else.... I want something that suits my own tastes, and I want granular control over the components that are inside it. Freedom of choice is important to me, and Apple denies PAYING CUSTOMERS that right more than many other manufacturers. Whether it's the components inside their machines or the applications they're running, i believe that everyone deserves full control over their own personal computing experience.
The computers in current commercial aircraft are installed in a rack system that uses connectors with similar pins. Those computers get removed and installed regularly for troubleshooting / maintenance. They work in far harsher conditions and they rarely fail, so why would a computer sitting in your study be any less reliable?
Even an overclocked 4GHz Quad core cannot come close to a Mac Pro with 8 Xeon cores chewing away at something. For professonals who need the incredible power of an 8 core Xeon workstation, there is really nothing out there better for the money than the Mac Pro.
Which brings me to MY challenge. Try building and equivalent Xeon workstation with the same processors and same features as the Mac Pro for less. It cant be done... I looked hard at my options when I was buying, and Apple is a good 1,500 dollars LESS than their competition! Even if you build one yourself!
Those Xeon quadcores in the Mac Pro are 1000 dollars EACH on newegg so 2,000 dollars just for the processors alone! Hmmm, these new Mac Pros are seeming like a deal now for a lot of people, I bet. At least for those who NEED this kind of power, anyway. For gamers or websurfers, this machine is silly. But for 3D, video, scientific applications, and anything else heavily multithreade... or for someone who runs quite a few programs at the same time, this machine is amazing.
This absolutely insane computing power is why I... as a PC user... bought a Mac Pro, and it has been the best PC I have ever owned, by far.
Dell's Precision (the T7400) puts a world of hurt on the Mac Pro. At least when it comes to the new mac pro, it doesn't offer any hard drives faster than 7,200 RPM. The Dell has Raid 0,1, or 5 15k SCSI drives. Regardless of processor speeds, especially on 8-core systems, the hard drive is the bottle neck. Also since the new Mac Pro currently lacks any 'Pro' version video card, like the Quadro line from Nvidia. Those are massive drawbacks on the Mac Pro compared to what else is out there.
BTW: New Mac Pro Two 2.93 quad Xeon (Nehalem) 8GB 1066 ram (DDR 3) 640gig 7200 RPM (Raid 5) GeForce G 120 512MB 3-year Applecare $7,348
It'd be interesting to see the performance between the two systems. The dell vastly outclasses the Mac Pro with hard drive and video card, but falls behind on RAM speed. The proc's may be comparable, but I have yet to see any benchmarks.
Yeah, but the Nehalem processors were not invented by Apple, and they are not exclusive to Apple... so anyone who builds or buys a system with the Nehalem processors in them will achieve the same performance. And you are right, the new Nehalem processors are supposed to be extremely fast, and much faster than the previous generation of processors.
@GeekPI: "At least when it comes to the new mac pro, it doesn't offer any hard drives faster than 7,200 RPM."
Apple does offer RAID. I'm not sure why they don't offer 15,000 RPM SAS drives or SSDs in them at the moment (I thought they used to) but you can always install them yourself (and they would cost less than whatever Apple charged you anyway, right?). If you want RAID, the odds of you not knowing how to install a hard drive are pretty minimal.
I am a PC user who bought the 2008 Mac Pro, I have to say the Mac Pro has the best, most well thought out case I have ever owned. The thing is pretty much silent, yet is one of the coolest running computers I have seen, the case has great airflow, and that is with 8 cores of Xeon goodness, and 16GB of ram! The only downside to this silent torrent of air flow, is that all my cat's hair tends to collect all over the front of the machine, but I guess getting an air filter for free with my computer is a good deal! ;)
I hope Apple never changes this case design, it is pretty much perfect.... well maybe add another row of removable hard drives... 8 would be nice.
Simply put, this is the best PC I have ever owned, in every way.
I hate how apple is cutting fw400, cause usb 2 on pretty much any mac sucks balls. From what I've read its a bug problem related to software, but damn usb 2 speeds are overall just unacceptable on macs.
Nice little video. Two questions for engadget's hands on: 1. Noise levels were pretty damn high on past pros. Are they any better on this iteration? 2. Does it have eSata connectivity for external eSata drives? Thanks.
you wanna play big swingin dicks. You are way out of your league. I am older, more experience and more qualified than you. I got my first Porsche in 1984, twit.
you evade your error. your use of the term corporation is misplaced.
were you responbile for IBM's almighty cock-up in the 1980's ?
There is an SATA connector on the motherboard near the optical drive. You can run an eSATA cable to the back panel to get eSATA. It's easier to buy an eSATA card and pop it in the IDE slots though.
@kccboy2004: Porsche? What an expensive waste of money! I could go out and get a Honda, Subaru or Toyota and tune it a bit to smoke your Porsche for much less money! They are overpriced, you are paying for the design. Porsche-tax. Why not build your own ricer and get more bang for your buck? And all so you can drive up to the trendy coffee shop & look cool parking in front, nothing more.
This sound familiar?
disclaimer, I love cars - including Porsche. Just had to make a point.
P.S. 944s don't count. Worse Porsche ever made aside from the 914s.
Do you know what PC stands for PERSONAL COMPUTER, not microsoft based computer. And yes there are things that came from 1 Infinite Loop; like the custom power supply. That's like me saying a XBOX 360 isn't Microsoft because they didn't build all the parts. Next you will say an Ubuntu based system isn't a PC because its not crippled by BG.
Business 101 - Corporations outsource parts that they don't make, that is where this thing called suppliers come from.
I stand by what I said. In this world, I'm not celebrating the companies that put the pieces together. I celebrate the companies that engineer and produce the pieces. I don't respect Dell either, since they mostly just lump parts together. I'd rather celebrate the Texas Instrument's, IBM's, Intel's. You can celebrate whomever you want.
"Business 101 - Corporations outsource parts that they don't make, that is where this thing called suppliers come from"
Business 101 - I can't believe that you are trying to give lessons in business, what are you ? 18, 17, 13 years old ?
What you describe is an OEM "An original equipment manufacturer, or OEM is typically a company that uses a component made by a second company in its own product".
"Manufacturing" is the use of machines, tools and labor to make things for use or sale. The term may refer to a range of human activity, from handicraft to high tech, but is most commonly applied to industrial production, in which raw materials are transformed into finished goods on a large scale.
Your use of the term corporation in this context is erroneous at best. A corporation is a legal entity separate from the persons that form it. It is a legal entity owned by individual stockholders.
Corporations outsource to other corporations. The term means nothing in this context.
Apple is an OEM, just like Asus or Dell.
Willy Wonker's Chocolate factory is 'most likely' not an OEM.
@Kwikit I don't call any of there parts ingenious. They are great at design, functionality, and ease of use. I respect companies such as Intel, AMD, and IBM much more than Apple (Hardware Side), Dell, or HP. They are just putting parts together in a case that they had someone else make.
And in regards to MAC v. PC commercials - It is just branding; they are trying to differentiate themselves for Microsoft because many end consumer only knew one OS. They were still making PCs, just a PC with a different OS.
@KccBoy
Please don't think you know more about business maters or computers than me; I probably have had a PC longer than you have been alive; my first was in 1984 how old are you.
I got my first degree in Bus. Adm. then I went to work for IBM at Research Triangle Park then I got my Masters Degree.
A corporation is not always separate for the entities that form it; this is the case in S Corporations and LLCs; they are made to avoid the double taxation that regular Businesses occur and to have more protection then a basic partnership.
And also many corporations outsource to LLP which are not corporations; this is often the case with their legal matters, and accounting matters.
And please don't quote wiki or referencedotcom to me; that is just further proving lack of knowledge on this topic.
I know what you mean. I personally can never like Apple as long as they continue their propaganda campaign at beingteh best, first, only, most, etc at every fucking theing they get their ass into. If they were honest, truthful, reasonable, etc, I'd buy their crap. But I never will as long as they embody a philosophy that I find destructive.
That is the whole point of XEON. Just try to build an 8 core machine with the processors you listed... can't be done currently. Why do you think Apple went with Xeon, just to make their computers expensive? These Mac Pros are killer machines, and cheap for an 8 core Xeon workstation.
Now that we've thrown 'em off the trail, use the form below to get in touch with the people at Engadget. Please fill in all of the required fields because they're required.
posted Mar 14th 2009 12:58PM
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It looks like an amazing machine and a nice upgrade, too bad its a little out of my price range.
Pure dude doesn't know the difference between Xenon gas and Xeon processors.
There's no reason for Apple to change the case of the MacPro. How do you improve on something that's already perfect? It ain't heavy...it's just Apple excellence.
Dude we have the same name
"Apple excellence" !!!!!
That is a joke. Apple share bottom place in the world for quality. They have the highest Warranty claim rate of any manufacturer.
They continually beta test product on unsuspecting customers, who are unwilling to be given the title of tester.
The whole iPhone debacle has not faded from memory yet. My Mac Mini died FINALLY after 6 trips to the Genius bar in 2 years.
That is certainly rich, putting "excellence" and "Apple" in the same sentence. You are not on this planet.
Apple quality is SH1T. No debate.
"That is a joke. Apple share bottom place in the world for quality. They have the highest Warranty claim rate of any manufacturer."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
let me guess... your best friend told you, or you read that on a message board somewhere. well of course it must be true then. im on # 32 piece of apple equipment. ive had 1 problem out of all of that... on an ipod of all things. hdd went bad.
"Apple quality is SH1T. No debate."
yes... who in the world would want to debate you and your excellent debating skills!
opinion != fact
your opinion == pile of steamy elephant dung.
^^^^^^^^^^
fact.
@microdot.
this is not a debate. this is not subject to a subjective opinion. this is FACT. this is published stated fact. READ the NEWS. idiot.
People have been posting that Apple's warranty claim rates are the highest in the industry. I've never seen those stats and, having worked in a computer repair & upgrade shop, I find it hard to believe.
I can't find evidence online of such a survey and would love to see pointers. When looking for it, I did find plenty of studies saying that Appl has the highest consumer satisfaction in the industry. See this, for example, from a month ago.
http://www.macdailynews.com/gfx/article_gfx/2009/090218_cw_satisfaction.gif
@Stern: So a site that has Mac in the name is going to have pro mac data!?
sigh,
APPLE FAILURE RATES ARE THE HIGHEST....
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Squaretrade-888128.html
read it. digest it. this is FACT.
Apple quality SUCKS a big one.
@kctroll: Apple also has the best warranties and the highest levels of customer satisfaction when it comes to tech support issues.
I had a lot more problems with my PowerBook a few years ago than I thought I should. That's why they replaced it with a much newer, much better MacBook Pro for free. And I haven't had a problem with it yet.
And as far as "READ[ing] the NEWS" goes, I think you're on to something. Try it:
I had in mind the (several iterations of) Consumer Reports reviews, in which Apple hardware and tech support consistently rank at the top. While you can't read the whole reviews online without a subscription, you can get an idea from the "Consider Tech Support" portion, here:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/computers-internet/computer/computers/overview/computers-ov.htm
If you want a review of reliability, you could try these links (representing the last couple of years), where, again, Apple is consistently best:
http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/57675
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/19436/
I'm not saying nothing ever goes wrong with Apple machines. In fact, I've already admitted to being the owner of an Apple product that had problems. Believe me, I'm a long way from thinking Apple is a perfect company. I am, however, claiming that you're uninformed, a troll, a hypocrite, and a moron. Choke on scorpions, kc. Choke on scorpions.
whatever.
Personally, I've had a couple of issues with Apple products that were replaced at the store, no questions asked, and I didn't even have a receipt.
Dell may claim better service, but I've personally spent hours on the phone with Dell's shitty Indian support trying to resolve issues that were clearly their fault, such as installing the wrong video card, and claiming I needed to pay for a replacement, then after the support issue crossed the 30 day mark, claiming that it was now too late to fix the problem. That next day thing only applies to their business machines or if you pay for their support plans. You're not getting in next day in home replacement if you have a problem with your $500 Inspiron and didn't purchase their extra warranty; this I can state as a fact.
You can find stuff to back up your argument whatever side you're on, but my personal experience with Apple products has been only positive dating back to 2003 when I got my first iPod.
To me the problem isn't if Apple stuff breaks, it's if it gets fixed. In my experience, it does.
No kidding, 50% of all the macbook around me had to be return for hd failure or screen problems. Maybe 20% on that had to be return again. I dont buy mac anymore (I like to built my own now) but im in motion graphics and TV then all directors and graphic designers around me have macs.
Still I think mac are good products. Its just not my cup of tea anymore... I did pay 3000$ for a goddam G4 in the past but I dont spend that kind of money on computer now because in 6 month it will be obsolete anyway. Spending 1200$ per year on Hardware is the best ratio price/power I have found. Right now the sweet spot is on the i7 2.66ghz cpu. for 900$ you get a monster machine. No need of Xeon, its just silly when only 3D package will profit from 8 cores.
@ kay-cee-cee boy MMIV
That particular report has been raised a few times recently. There is no problem at all with that report, on its own. The problem is that there have been many, many reports on warranty returns by many different groups, and they all come to different results. Different methodologies, different geographical areas, etc.
It is easy to find reports that state that Apple is #1, same with Sony, and Dell, and HP; conversely it is all to easy to find a report by some group saying that "company X has the highest warranty returns and is therefor least reliable". There is no one accepted measure, and so mentioning one report as though it is the only report is a misleading practice.
yeh I agree, if apple put out a midrange desktop tower they would steal another percent or two from windows market share, but that's apple, money over market share, this is why windows has always been so successful, it's got company's that support it that understand people want the lowest price on the most functional computer, some would argue that apple computers are more functional for the price, but if you delve deep, pc's are always slightly less expensive for what you get
CraigJ -
Agreed that Dell's consumer customer support has much to be desired, but since we're talking about a Mac Pro with likely 'applecare' support, I'd compare this to Dell's Business support, which is almost unbeatable. Opting for the 4 year, 24/7 4-hour onsite service is a smart idea for mission critical business systems. Business support give you a line that calls the same support team directly (based in the US). Have a drive failure at midnight? They'll be there to replace it by 4am. That service has saved my butt many times. No additional charge.
Apple doesn't offer any support like that. Not even close.
Apple has had consistently high ratings for reliability in Consumer Reports. Every issue I've read places them at #1. Perhaps things have changed in the past year or two, but I'd like proof.
But the real reason I came to post is that my Aug '06 Mac Pro has slide-out trays for RAM. I don't see how that's difficult to upgrade.
@ iphonerulez
Poor dude, doesn't know the difference between "poor" and "pure".
Yup. Looks like a Mac Pro.
not entirely. mine looks like it's much deeper than this one. Has the depth of the chassis been shortened? Can you guys confirm?
Four HDD bays across the case? Same as always. Apple's site confirms the dimensions are the same.
http://support.apple.com/specs/#macpro
thanks man! must just be the perspective of the first image...
Wonder how hard it would be to install an ATX board in there.
I love that case, but Mac's just aren't for me.
Yep it looks exactly like a Mac Pro.
And considering how long in the tooth that case design is that's not a good thing.
It seems to me that the only reason they added the removeable tray was to show some evidence that they actually give a damn about the state of their pro desktop design. Practically speaking it's an almost worthless addition since the Pro upgrade possibilities and frequency at which that happens are minute. I've busted open my old Pro case to upgrade the RAM twice in 5 years.
This appears to have been solely added to give the impression of "progress" when in fact it's more akin to Apple just treading water.
And before anyone rattles off the old "if it ain't broke ..." cliche, you're wrong. There is always a way to make a better design. That's why Apple don't sell blue bubble or lamp iMacs now.
Of course it looks like a Mac Pro, what did you expect, one of those gamer PC cases that looks like the new batmobile?
Cash, why would you want to put an ATX board in this machine? If you want to run Windows or Linux the out-of-the-box hardware will do that very well... it's like putting a crap domestic engine into a Ferrari because you don't like the music on the stereo.
@FNG
it is the exact same size case, I put them side by side.
@arkweld
It looks harder to change the RAM than the last design IMO. On the last one, each set of four memory slots was on a small removable card. Now you have to remove the whole thing with two HUGE heat sinks attached.
Look at that video and tell me Apple doesn't design beautiful hardware!
Apple doesn't design beautiful hardware!
It looks like a piece of industrial kitchen equipment. Does Denny's use these to clean silverware?
Nevermind, Denny's doesn't clean their silverware.
Apple designs beautiful cheese graters!
Beautiful! As in = 75% design 25% ergonomic
I do 3D work and I would hate to all day on them mouse and keyboards. I take my Logitech Wave keyboard and G5 mouse over them beautiful hardwares.
I do design work all day on that mouse and keyboard and don't have a problem with it.
The MacPro I use at work is silent and fast, although a little RAM starved at the moment...
@roach last I checked you CAN use your beloved wave keyboard on amy mac and the same goes for the mouse. Not only that but Logitech actually has a control panel application that integrates very will with OS X so if there is any fancy feature that the logitech hardware has you can configure it and use just like you can on windows. And before anyone starts arguing except for really expensive gaming rigs no computer comes standard with Logitech wave. And if we must look at default keyboard options Dell and pretty much all computer vendors have really cheap peripherals and are terrible to use.
and damn do they make you pay for it
at least it doesnt look like some alien spaceship with a billion blue LED's, a couple of seethrough panels to enjoy the sight of tangled wires and exposed chips, oh and a pc fanboy alongside who cares more about what the pc can benchmark rather than how he can use it.
It just looks like a case with a couple convenient handles on top and good airflow from having a giant vent for a front panel. I'll admit most of Apple's stuff is visually distinctive and often good looking. But this is just an aluminum case.
You can use PC keyboards on Macs, as long as they are USB or Bluetooth. Often you end up with no eject key though. So you have to search the internet for the way on how to turn the eject icon in the menu bar back on (which was turned off with 10.5 or something).
@cg0def
I know you can use PC keyboards and mouse on a Macs. But I was taking about Apple's approach to design. Apple design = 75% design 25% ergonomic
Beside Apple hardware is too restrictive for my 3D need. I don't get to choose the video card l want. Rather, Apple choose it for you. l feel sorry for people who has to rely on what Apple release. I mean, these so called workstation doesn't even offer professional quadro cards. Apple has there people by their balls.
@roach
"Beside Apple hardware is too restrictive for my 3D need. I don't get to choose the video card l want. Rather, Apple choose it for you. l feel sorry for people who has to rely on what Apple release. I mean, these so called workstation doesn't even offer professional quadro cards. Apple has there people by their balls."
I mean, these so called 3D people doesn't have knowledge of english.
looks like a tiny sexy refrigerator
Surely you mean "penryn-based predecessor"...?
Cue the "don't call me Shirley" jokes...
@cg0def
Of course you serviced Dell/Gateway 5-10 times more than Mac's....Mac probably still had
Well the distribution of machines was 40% Macs 55% PCs and about 5% Sun stations and we are talking about something like 5000+ machines. But Macs are very expensive and the tech support is quite inflexible.
BTW you posted in the wrong thread.
@bjsguess
OK I will bite.... so you think your computer can hang with the Mac Pro, huh?
Try to beat a score of 23126 on the Cinebench R10 multi-core rendering test (scored on my 2008 Mac Pro... not one of these new machines) :
http://www.maxon.de/pages/download/cinebench_e.html
Even an overclocked 4GHz Quad core cannot come close to a Mac Pro with 8 Xeon cores chewing away at something. For professonals who need the incredible power of an 8 core Xeon workstation, there is really nothing out there better for the money than the Mac Pro.
Which brings me to MY challenge. Try building and equivalent Xeon workstation with the same processors and same features as the Mac Pro for less. It cant be done... I looked hard at my options when I was buying, and Apple is a good 1,500 dollars LESS than their competition! Even if you build one yourself!
Those Xeon quadcores in the Mac Pro are 1000 dollars EACH on newegg so 2,000 dollars just for the processors alone! Hmmm, these new Mac Pros are seeming like a deal now for a lot of people, I bet. At least for those who NEED this kind of power, anyway. For gamers or websurfers, this machine is silly. But for 3D, video, scientific applications, and anything else heavily multithreade... or for someone who runs quite a few programs at the same time, this machine is amazing.
This absolutely insane computing power is why I... as a PC user... bought a Mac Pro, and it has been the best PC I have ever owned, by far.
Must suck to be whoever owns this when one of those pins in the tray connector goes bad...or when the PSU fails..
sure, it's nice to look at, and i'm sure it's plenty fast, but if i'm paying top dollar, i want to be involved in the design and build process
But this is for photographers/designers who dont know sqat about the internals of a PC and want something they know will be a beast.
And I thought that this was targeted at the uber-geeks at Engadget who only think about the specs and lowest price and if it can play Crysis or GTA 4. [just acting like all the other trolls right there]
I'm willing to bet that 75% of the people who moan about the bad specs of Macs don't have PCs of those specs.
Why would the pins fail anymore than any other pin connector setup that's only ever unplugged once in the lifetime of the machine? How often do you switch out your ram?
Yeah, curse all those times i've had a pin failure, because those _do_ exist.
Say what you will about PC users not having computers of the same power, or how this is geared towards people who won't customize computers, that doesn't change the fact that custom hardware like this needlessly increases the complexity and cost of fixing anything. The tray system for the hard drives and such isn't bad, voodoo did something similar with their [now dead?] Omen PC, but the non-standard nature of the motherboard could very easily cause problems. This also screams of the late 80's/early 90's design of putting things like processors on add-in cards. last computer I saw that in was running Pentium III.
I think the chance of something going wrong when you reach your hand inside an old model is more likely than a pin being damaged from the motion of that horizontal sliding.
hum dude you can get the extended warranty which gives you free repairs in the ext 3 years so no it does not suck at all. Plus when I used to work at a fairly large IT department we used to service PC hardware ( gateway + dell ) about 5-10 times more often than we did Macs. And replacing parts on Macs was fairly simple then and even simpler now ( not talking about iMacs ).
People seriously like to "build" their computers still? Really? I hate to break it to you but a manufacturer putting millions of dollars into the testing and design of a system can do FAR more than someone matching specs off Newegg. When you can build parts that are meant to work with each other you end up with a far more impressive result (iMac), something that a system builder can never dream of doing.
Find me a mass installation of computers in a missions critical environment that aren't all Dell or some other major manufacturer. When you start dealing with the big boys, you'll get laughed out of the room if you suggest building your own PC.
utahnkid ...
My benchmarks would disagree with you.
A well built computer by an enthusiast will trounce over pre-builts from Dell, Apple, HP, etc in most cases.
@ Utah kid
That is called "mass production" items are tested together so they can be knocked out cheap in huge quantities.
A pro self build can easily trounce mass produced you obviously just don't know how and need HP/Apple/Dell engineers to do it instead and their eye is purely on profit.
@ utahnkid -
I'm not talking about mission-critical environments, of course they'll all be running the same platform all across the board, and you must think i'm an idiot if you think i don't realize that the "big guys" can potentially build a more reliable product (although half their goal is to make the product as cheap to produce as possible). I work in these environments every day.
Perhaps this is just a difference of opinion, but i'm not someone who takes pride in owning the same thing as everyone else.... I want something that suits my own tastes, and I want granular control over the components that are inside it. Freedom of choice is important to me, and Apple denies PAYING CUSTOMERS that right more than many other manufacturers. Whether it's the components inside their machines or the applications they're running, i believe that everyone deserves full control over their own personal computing experience.
The computers in current commercial aircraft are installed in a rack system that uses connectors with similar pins. Those computers get removed and installed regularly for troubleshooting / maintenance. They work in far harsher conditions and they rarely fail, so why would a computer sitting in your study be any less reliable?
@bjsguess
OK I will bite.... so you think your computer can hang with the Mac Pro, huh?
Try to beat a score of 23126 on the Cinebench R10 multi-core rendering test (scored on my 2008 Mac Pro... not one of these new machines) :
http://www.maxon.de/pages/download/cinebench_e.html
Even an overclocked 4GHz Quad core cannot come close to a Mac Pro with 8 Xeon cores chewing away at something. For professonals who need the incredible power of an 8 core Xeon workstation, there is really nothing out there better for the money than the Mac Pro.
Which brings me to MY challenge. Try building and equivalent Xeon workstation with the same processors and same features as the Mac Pro for less. It cant be done... I looked hard at my options when I was buying, and Apple is a good 1,500 dollars LESS than their competition! Even if you build one yourself!
Those Xeon quadcores in the Mac Pro are 1000 dollars EACH on newegg so 2,000 dollars just for the processors alone! Hmmm, these new Mac Pros are seeming like a deal now for a lot of people, I bet. At least for those who NEED this kind of power, anyway. For gamers or websurfers, this machine is silly. But for 3D, video, scientific applications, and anything else heavily multithreade... or for someone who runs quite a few programs at the same time, this machine is amazing.
This absolutely insane computing power is why I... as a PC user... bought a Mac Pro, and it has been the best PC I have ever owned, by far.
Sean
Dell's Precision (the T7400) puts a world of hurt on the Mac Pro. At least when it comes to the new mac pro, it doesn't offer any hard drives faster than 7,200 RPM. The Dell has Raid 0,1, or 5 15k SCSI drives. Regardless of processor speeds, especially on 8-core systems, the hard drive is the bottle neck. Also since the new Mac Pro currently lacks any 'Pro' version video card, like the Quadro line from Nvidia. Those are massive drawbacks on the Mac Pro compared to what else is out there.
BTW: New Mac Pro
Two 2.93 quad Xeon (Nehalem)
8GB 1066 ram (DDR 3)
640gig 7200 RPM (Raid 5)
GeForce G 120 512MB
3-year Applecare
$7,348
Dell Precision T7400
Two 3.20 quad Xeon X5472 (1600 FSB)
8GB 800 ram (DDR2)
173gig 15k SCSI (Raid 5)
1.5GB Quadro FX4800
4year, 4hr 7x24 Onsite service
$7,335
It'd be interesting to see the performance between the two systems. The dell vastly outclasses the Mac Pro with hard drive and video card, but falls behind on RAM speed. The proc's may be comparable, but I have yet to see any benchmarks.
/Has a similar Dell 8-core Dell T7400
@GeekPI
The Mac Pro's CPU's will destroy those old ones. The performance increase is that big, really.
http://www.macrumors.com/2009/03/14/updated-mac-pro-benchmarks-and-video-of-internals/
Yeah, but the Nehalem processors were not invented by Apple, and they are not exclusive to Apple... so anyone who builds or buys a system with the Nehalem processors in them will achieve the same performance. And you are right, the new Nehalem processors are supposed to be extremely fast, and much faster than the previous generation of processors.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20081118082708_Intel_to_Initiate_Shipments_of_Nehalem_Processors_Early_Next_Year.html
I know, just saying :)
@GeekPI: "At least when it comes to the new mac pro, it doesn't offer any hard drives faster than 7,200 RPM."
Apple does offer RAID. I'm not sure why they don't offer 15,000 RPM SAS drives or SSDs in them at the moment (I thought they used to) but you can always install them yourself (and they would cost less than whatever Apple charged you anyway, right?). If you want RAID, the odds of you not knowing how to install a hard drive are pretty minimal.
They've been working the cheese-grater look for six years now with this iteration. Really innovative stuff.
It is still looks stunning and does not look outdated at all, so I don't see how keeping that design deserves sarcastic banter like yours.
I don't think their love affair with aluminium will end anytime soon.
Maybe you should tell Dell that.
They're copying the cheese grater look on their new Dell Adamo.
Silver/gray monochrome to boot.
And back lighted keyboard too.
I am a PC user who bought the 2008 Mac Pro, I have to say the Mac Pro has the best, most well thought out case I have ever owned. The thing is pretty much silent, yet is one of the coolest running computers I have seen, the case has great airflow, and that is with 8 cores of Xeon goodness, and 16GB of ram! The only downside to this silent torrent of air flow, is that all my cat's hair tends to collect all over the front of the machine, but I guess getting an air filter for free with my computer is a good deal! ;)
I hope Apple never changes this case design, it is pretty much perfect.... well maybe add another row of removable hard drives... 8 would be nice.
Simply put, this is the best PC I have ever owned, in every way.
and then i jizzed, in my pants
iJizz? is that some kind of new accessory?
omg omg omg!
To be fair, the RAM in the early 2008 Mac Pro was pretty easy to upgrade - there being two little slide-out trays rather than one big one.
why did they stick firewire all over the place when they cut it from the new macbook pro?
They didn't cut Firewire from the MacBook Pro, just the Macbook.
Uh, the new MacBook Pro has Firewire 800.
Because if you need the extra FireWire you will have to jump for this? = Bringing more $$ to Apple for something the person doesn't even need.
I hate how apple is cutting fw400, cause usb 2 on pretty much any mac sucks balls. From what I've read its a bug problem related to software, but damn usb 2 speeds are overall just unacceptable on macs.
@Laron
Link please.
Yeah, thought not.
Sometimes proprietary hardware design is good...
Bravo Apple, that's one sexy setup.
Nice little video. Two questions for engadget's hands on: 1. Noise levels were pretty damn high on past pros. Are they any better on this iteration? 2. Does it have eSata connectivity for external eSata drives? Thanks.
1) My new 8 core Mac Pro is running near silently.
2) No eSata card in the new Mac Pros, thats something you'd need to add yourself.
The g5 used to loud but ever since Apple switched to Intel the noise level went down.
race_car - are you an idiot ?
DELL = PC
HP = PC
APPLE = PC
ASUS = PC
DELL = COMPUTER, HP = COMPUTER, APPLE = COMPUTER, ASUS = COMPUTER
you are a fool.
race_car
tosh !!
you wanna play big swingin dicks. You are way out of your league. I am older, more experience and more qualified than you. I got my first Porsche in 1984, twit.
you evade your error. your use of the term corporation is misplaced.
were you responbile for IBM's almighty cock-up in the 1980's ?
There is an SATA connector on the motherboard near the optical drive. You can run an eSATA cable to the back panel to get eSATA. It's easier to buy an eSATA card and pop it in the IDE slots though.
Thanks for the info.
@kccboy2004:
Porsche? What an expensive waste of money! I could go out and get a Honda, Subaru or Toyota and tune it a bit to smoke your Porsche for much less money! They are overpriced, you are paying for the design. Porsche-tax. Why not build your own ricer and get more bang for your buck? And all so you can drive up to the trendy coffee shop & look cool parking in front, nothing more.
This sound familiar?
disclaimer, I love cars - including Porsche. Just had to make a point.
P.S. 944s don't count. Worse Porsche ever made aside from the 914s.
Ha ha. Take THAT PCs...
Take what?
Oh, here comes more FUD. Yikes.
It is a PC you twit. Which part of Intel based X86 system do you think came from Apple? Foo !
@Kwikit
Do you know what PC stands for PERSONAL COMPUTER, not microsoft based computer. And yes there are things that came from 1 Infinite Loop; like the custom power supply. That's like me saying a XBOX 360 isn't Microsoft because they didn't build all the parts. Next you will say an Ubuntu based system isn't a PC because its not crippled by BG.
Business 101 - Corporations outsource parts that they don't make, that is where this thing called suppliers come from.
And PC's are still faster and cheaper and can be made to look better using any parts and cases we want.
@racecar
Fair enough Racecar. I was using the term incorrectly as in PC vs Mac...
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
I stand by what I said. In this world, I'm not celebrating the companies that put the pieces together. I celebrate the companies that engineer and produce the pieces. I don't respect Dell either, since they mostly just lump parts together. I'd rather celebrate the Texas Instrument's, IBM's, Intel's. You can celebrate whomever you want.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Mac+vs+pc&aq=f&oq=
@race_car
"Business 101 - Corporations outsource parts that they don't make, that is where this thing called suppliers come from"
Business 101 - I can't believe that you are trying to give lessons in business, what are you ? 18, 17, 13 years old ?
What you describe is an OEM
"An original equipment manufacturer, or OEM is typically a company that uses a component made by a second company in its own product".
"Manufacturing" is the use of machines, tools and labor to make things for use or sale. The term may refer to a range of human activity, from handicraft to high tech, but is most commonly applied to industrial production, in which raw materials are transformed into finished goods on a large scale.
Your use of the term corporation in this context is erroneous at best. A corporation is a legal entity separate from the persons that form it. It is a legal entity owned by individual stockholders.
Corporations outsource to other corporations. The term means nothing in this context.
Apple is an OEM, just like Asus or Dell.
Willy Wonker's Chocolate factory is 'most likely' not an OEM.
@Kwikit
I don't call any of there parts ingenious. They are great at design, functionality, and ease of use. I respect companies such as Intel, AMD, and IBM much more than Apple (Hardware Side), Dell, or HP. They are just putting parts together in a case that they had someone else make.
And in regards to MAC v. PC commercials - It is just branding; they are trying to differentiate themselves for Microsoft because many end consumer only knew one OS. They were still making PCs, just a PC with a different OS.
@KccBoy
Please don't think you know more about business maters or computers than me; I probably have had a PC longer than you have been alive; my first was in 1984 how old are you.
I got my first degree in Bus. Adm. then I went to work for IBM at Research Triangle Park then I got my Masters Degree.
A corporation is not always separate for the entities that form it; this is the case in S Corporations and LLCs; they are made to avoid the double taxation that regular Businesses occur and to have more protection then a basic partnership.
And also many corporations outsource to LLP which are not corporations; this is often the case with their legal matters, and accounting matters.
And please don't quote wiki or referencedotcom to me; that is just further proving lack of knowledge on this topic.
racecar,
I know what you mean. I personally can never like Apple as long as they continue their propaganda campaign at beingteh best, first, only, most, etc at every fucking theing they get their ass into. If they were honest, truthful, reasonable, etc, I'd buy their crap. But I never will as long as they embody a philosophy that I find destructive.
Well hello sexy.
If only I was rich and you were a better gaming machine.
If only.
Are they ever going to change that case design...
@The Walrus
That is the whole point of XEON. Just try to build an 8 core machine with the processors you listed... can't be done currently. Why do you think Apple went with Xeon, just to make their computers expensive? These Mac Pros are killer machines, and cheap for an 8 core Xeon workstation.