Ballmer says tide has turned on Apple, "paying $500 more to get a logo on it" won't work in this economy
By Paul Miller 
posted March 20th 2009 10:35AM
posted March 20th 2009 10:35AM
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posted March 20th 2009 10:35AM
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Someone PLEASE photoshop the lightning bolts coming out of his fingers
Mac fanboys keep denying that Apple hardware is overpriced. What's funny is that there is a 12+ page thread on macrumors regarding on how to flash PC 4870 video card to work on Mac because Apple charges 50+% premium for Mac ready ones.
Also the first thing any mac fanboy seem to do is buy third party RAM, HDD and Display.
What happened to Apple hardware not being overpriced? What happened to the premium for "superior" hardware that was well worth paying?
I am sure there will be replies like "but but but Apple doesn't make RAM". Well Apple doesn't make the Graphics card, CPU, Motherboard, DVD Drives etc. either.
So basically you're just agreeing with me that you're paying a premium for a badge.
Not really, I just think it's a rad picture Debbie Downer
That whole overpriced claim is kinda relative. I've noticed that the PC people who do hardware comparisons to Macs often leave out the software. If you add something comparable to iLife, like Adobe Photoshop Elements and Anti-Virus software (because, let's fact it, you have to have it for Windows) and Vista Business Ultimate because nothing else even comes close to Leopard, you'll often see that the prices for Macs are equal and in often cases, less expensive than the comparable PC.
The PC comparison magicians also leave out the price for Windows. You see, when you build a PC, you don't get the nice OEM discount unless you've got a spare disk from an older computer. If you're a newbie coming on the scene, you've got to buy Vista retail. The retail version, even on Amazon, will run you $273.99.
So let's see. Take that nice, but misleading hardware total and add this to it.
Adobe Photoshop Elements 79.99
Generic Anti-Virus 19.99
Vista Ultimatte 273.99
Okay, NOW your little PC is equal to a Mac. Congratulations!
Nice!
It's not over till the scary bald guy sings.
@P.A.C :
There are perfectly capable editors that are free as well as free anti viruses. No one needs Vista Ultimate either. On the other hand why don't you throw the price of OSX Server in your Mac. Surely you want all the features missing from the standard OSX.
1. Photoshop Elements = Windows Live Photo Gallery (free)
2. Generic antivirus = http://free.grisoft.com plus the built in Windows Defender (all free)
3. Nobody builds their own PC anymore - for precisely that reason
I own a white macbook, and I think the current MacBooks are grossly overpriced as are the other products.
I couldn't give a crap about the software, its called torrents.
OS X can be installed on many different hardware configs, if it matched the settings needed.
I think the iPod touch is overpriced, and unnecessary.
@Proud Japanese.
At least you can name all the versions of OSX in two sentences.
@P.A.C.
"You see, when you build a PC, you don't get the nice OEM discount unless you've got a spare disk from an older computer."
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium SP1 64-bit for System Builders - OEM
$99.99
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate SP1 64-bit for System Builders - OEM
$179.99
"OEM" means you don't get support from MSFT. It doesn't mean you need a previous version.
@ P.A.C Man
do you know anyone that really pays for windows software? or any programs/software for that matter? i don't. everyone i know pirates their programs/software. so please redo your price comparision again.
Of course you get support from Microsoft with OEM version you fracking tool, OEM is Original Equiptment Manufacturer version that dispenses with all the retail packaging and Activation (at least on XP) and makes it easier for companies that build their own PCs to get it cheaper than buying Retail copies for each machine.
Do some research idiot.
If Ballmer says that them Apple has nothing to worry about lol. I never seen any CEO being wrong so many times like ballmer.
@P.A.C: You also forget that you can install Linux on a PC. So there goes your price comparison argument out of the window.
I also want to add that the spec Nazis don't understand that Macs don't have the have the latest in processor technology to run decent. You don't even have to have a processor made in the last three years for OS X Leopard to run smooth. I have a friend with a five year old dual 1.8 G5 and Leopard has no problems. No noticeable lagg unless you're doing something intensive, like video editing.
Of course, the spec Nazis slam Macs because they want Crysis to run at 60 FPS on the highest setting, although the most popular games on PCs (mostly Valve games) are perfectly acceptable with mid range processors. So if you're running a Valve game in boot camp or with Crossover games on a Mac, you'll get great gameplay, without wasting your money on expensive hardware you don't need.
Okay, that's the end of my little rant.
@Malikye,
So in your argument, a Mac and any Windows box are exactly the same price, since you can steal them both for free. nice one.
@P.A.C: That doesn't mean it's OK to charge a premium on outdated hardware. Hey my 5 year old Dell runs Windows 7 perfectly fine. I guess I will try to sell it for the same price I bought originally. Of course, unlike mac fanboys, PC users aren't that gullible.
@ Proud Japanese
Apple does sell items that cost more than other products with the same specs, but that doesn't mean they are the same. Saying that you can find a CPU with a certain GHz means nothing if you ignore the architecture of the CPU. Same goes for HDDs, RAM, power supplies and other components if you ignore the long term durability and reliability of these components. The TCO for Macs seems to be lower than your $400 PC that you tout as being better than a Mac.
The same can be said for software. Sure, you can find free stuff to save a buck but I have no interest in a bunch of unsupported software that I have to pay for, hack or this filled with consistent issues that are never fixed because the developers have little interest in updating because they are not profitable. I want the machine I buy to have efficient apps for the things I need. I don't want to scavenge the internet after the fact looking for these things and hoping there isn't a trojan included.
On top of that, the major PC vendors are about the same price for the Mac equivalent when comparing the same HW, and yet they still come filled with 3-party crapware to supplement the cost. When you by a Mac there is only the HD icon on the desktop and there is no trialware included. QuickTime Pro is the only app that could be considered not full.
@ Sisyphus
So for nearly $200 you don't get any OS support, but having support for an OS from a company who sells "the entire package" in a simplified model meant for the average consumer is somehow a bad thing. I can't imagine my mother building her own PC with the equivalent speed of a Mac and buying an OEM version of Windows to install on it. Some of us just want something that just doesn't require setting up and tweaking all the time.
Screw off Paul Chapel, Macbook gaming MY ASS.
TF2 is pretty much UNPLAYABLE on my macbook.
HL2 is OK.
Just get the hell off engadget, you piss me off more than Clak.
You don't even know gaming.
Ballmer with lightning bolts shooting out of his hands:
http://images.birdy.nu/images/lightningballmer.jpg
@Proud Japanese
I can get cheaper RAM and HDDs than what Dell offers, too.
Dell wants $75 for 2GB RAM for a Mini 9. It's about $20 from newegg.
Dell wants $150 for a 150GB HDD in an Inspiron 15. It's about $100 from newegg.
It's always cheaper if you do the upgrades yourself-- from Apple, from Dell, from HP, from IBM, from anyone.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4614/balmerlightning.png
@juju
YES! You have made my day
You wanted lightning:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/13338351@N07/3370705644/
@ P.A.C Man
Windows costs £50 for an OEM copy you have listed the retail price
All my customers use free anti-virus, Avast, AVG or Avira
Alot of PCs from Sony or HP or Dell come bundled with software like Photoshop elements.iPhoto is not a good photo editor and its at the same level as Ms Live software.
My old 5 year old Pentium 4 runs Vista perfectly well, you really don't know what you're talking about do you ?
@theone: Nobody builds their own PC anymore? Are you serious? I spent about $950 on a nice aluminum case, quiet power supply, mobo, 3GHz dual core CPU, 4GB RAM, nVidia 9800 GTX+, dual tuner, 1TB HDD and a 22" wide LCD. Windows cost me $99 on newegg. The thing smokes anything I throw at it and I can game, run Photoshop and Premiere, be productive with office apps, and power my TV across the room with Media Center. It even gives me DVR and automatic commercial skipping that I can control with a remote from my couch.
The closest Apple PC is around $2200 but it doesn't have as good a video card or a tuner. It's also harder for me to swap out the CPU when I want to in a year whereas with my current setup I can maybe shell out for a quad later on and just swap the CPU.
Yes, the cost of my labor is worth something but not $1200. One moderately-specced iMac cost as much as my desktop and laptop combined. So for all of those who say Apple products are not expensive, you must have a lot more money to spare than I do. I would love to run Final Cut at home but, no, they had to make it OSX exclusive and of course OSX is artificially tied to Apple hardware.
If what you need is specifically an all-in-one computer running some OSX-only app then maybe an iMac would be worth the cash. Otherwise you are better off buying one from another vendor or having one custom built. Mac Pros are pretty sweet and while expensive, that is more understandable as the highest-end hardware always carries a premium and the whole thing is not really applicable in a discussion of the consumer PC market. If I had the money, I would gladly buy some 2x dual core Xeon Power Mac with 8GB of RAM for video editing. There is just no way I would buy anything Apple for consumer uses. You pay too much for no real advantage other than style.
@Haikibutsu
Oh wait, you have an older Macbook with integrated Intel graphics and Team Fortress doesn't run well? Well knock me over with a Zune! I have an ancient AMD PC that doesn't run Team Fortress well either.
The NEWER MacBooks have Nvidia cards, and run Team Fortress quite well. Hell, even a new Mini will run Team Fortress or Counter-Strike without much trouble.
On that note, here's some more cool video.
Bioshock on a iMac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-f5KsGsBFE
Battlefield 2 on a Mac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EItvkS1XR4o
Gears of War on a Mac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvmv7G-sHY
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6089/ballmerjoke.png
Disclaimer: I ain't a Microsoft hater, this is only a joke. :p
defender of the brand...numpty of the universe
...... let's do the mash..... the monster mash....let's do the mash...............
Paul. This isn't a damn argument over OSX vs Windows.
I USE BOTH!
Why restrict yourself to one or the other?
Oh, and I can build a gaming rig that beats the iMac in all respects except looks.
paul, your an idiot. what point are you trying to make?
TF2 is a old game....and any 6 year old PC can run it (as my system can).
So to say that a 3 year old macbook pro can't run is a void argument, and you are acutally helping the other side....all your saying is that macs are completely obsolete at the time of purchase (TF2 came out around the same time as the Macbook pros)
Oh and those videos of bioshock were made on a quad core xeon that costs 3000-5000 bucks or whatever...when i can run the game on my 5 year old P4 that cost 900 (5 years ago) with a upgraded 150 dollar graphics (9700) just as well....
people are saying that the hardware is overpriced....YES macs can play games...no argument there...but the price to play a game on a comparable PC is much lower....
Rate me how you will, I'm not a fanboy, I just know a deal when I see one:
Custom-built computer: $587
Ubuntu 8.10: $0.00
Open Office: $0.00
Cinelerra: $0.00
GIMP: $0.00
Antivirus: N/A
Mediatomb (Media server): $0.00
etc...
@ Paul Chapel
I would make a similar comment regarding the apps/games for windows - but it would take over 5 hours to download the .txt file...
@rawd - here you go:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/4928/emperorbolt.jpg
@Paul... Seriously!... Seriously..??
You listed RealPlayer, Growl... DRUPAL?!!? WORDPRESS!??!
You aren't helping your cause. Drupal & Wordpress are CMS systems for websites. That has nothing to do with an OS.
Wish granted:
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8635/returnofthesith.jpg
Chief Clown Ballmer speaks. People laugh. Apple-hating trolls swoon in rapture.
@gnormie
Will take you 5 hours? That is because you are on a virus laden Windows box!
Wow, three false and outrageous statements in one sentence? That's pretty good, even for Ballmer. So, let's break this down:
1) Macs cost LESS. When total cost of ownership is taken into consideration, you'll find the Macs cost far less. Why? Because they require less extra software, less maintenance, less repairs, and they hold their value much longer. Not to mention that when you stack up the features of a Dell, HP, or Alienware laptop to a Mac, the Mac will either come out cheaper, or only $100 more expensive. And for that extra $100, you get additional features, like (in my tests), a faster processor, and a multitouch trackpad. Also, looking at Dell's latest bragging point, the Adamo, a laptop that is thicker than the MacBook Air, and has a worse graphics card, but costs more than the MBA.
2) It's not the same piece of hardware. There's a reason Macs last longer, and have more value years after they've been purchased. Better parts make them longer lasting. Not to mention Mac hardware can run Mac OS, without hacking or additional parts. So this means the hardware itself has an advantage: it can run the operating system that has the highest customer satisfaction in the industry.
3) It's not about the logo, Ballmer, it's about the quality, and the features.
Get your head on straight Ballmer. And let's not forget that your company charges more for it's operating system, and makes stripped down, almost useless versions of it, just to make a buck off the people who can't afford your operating system that costs more than $200.
Macs have more value, and cheaper upgrade costs. Sorry Ballmer, you're wrong again (what else is new?).
If you'd like proof of my statements, just do a quick google search.
I wonder what would happen to Paul if he was forced to come up with an original idea? Or if his copy and paste stopped working?
Price isn't the only thing you should consider when you buy a computer. If you want a computer that will last you more than 3 years and won't be outdated by the next Windows upgrade, and will have a high resell value, then buy a Mac. If you don't like Windows, but need Windows to run 2 or 3 proprietary programs from work, then also buy a Mac. You can dual boot or run Parallels. If you want a computer that is superior in video or sound software (Final Cut, Garageband, Logic, iMovie), then buy a Mac.
If you're a cheapskate who loves wasting weekends building computers from scratch and you're going to steal all your software from Piratebay or Demonoid and you don't care that you might get a virus or have to do a hard boot occasionally and you could give a crap about how the computer looks, then get a PC.
I'm not hating. I have a bunch of old PCs, but I think you should buy what's important to you. Don't let the fanboys make the decision
I had been been using a powerbook as my primary computer for several years. Recently I built a pretty a pretty sweet rig using a Shuttle barebones for about $600 (I already had a monitor). It dual boots XP (had an old copy) and openSUSE and is now my primary machine. I really wanted to get another mac, I really did. When I bought the powerbook, I could justify spending the extra cash because I thought OSX was fantastic and the hardware looked great. I still think OSX justifies some of the price premium tha Apple demands, but I find the current specs of Apple's machines to be underwhelming and I've become more than a little annoyed by their heavy-handed design as of late (e.g. "you like glossy screens, yes you do"). openSUSE is great and XP provides access to lots of good commercial software--I can't see switching back to a mac in the near future (though I'd consider picking up an Apple netbook :-).
I happen to be running OSX on a Dell laptop, so there.
Also, Ballmer should also realize that "paying $100 more to get Windows on it" won't work in this economy either. Especially since Ubuntu is easier to install and get running than OSX or Windows on regular hardware.
Here you go JB:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/912/ballmerjoke2.png
I proudly pay more for a Mac just because its MY MONEY. I like the design and the support of Apple products. There ya go!
Apple is a joke, Apple fanboys are worse. Well, if they want to pay $500 premium for a logo, all the power to them.
I have better things to do with my money.
For people who do not think Mac sales have dropped for 2 consecutive months because of the economy (vs PC sales rising), is it then because people don't like what Apple delivers anymore.
Its either one or the other, isn't it?
Honestly, when I bought my first Mac (without even considering its OS), it was because it is ten times more beautiful and thinner than any other Windows laptops. I'll pay a premium for external design, which is something Microsoft fanboys constantly ignored.
If anyone is paying a premium, Microsoft fanboy is paying a premium for the basic OS functionality. Mac comes with OS X, iLife, and X-Code, a complete software development environment that Microsoft charges for few hundred bulks for such thing. (I know there is free visual studio express, but you think they will give it for free if it wasn't because of competition?).
WOW...i've never seen an entire first page on any post, devoted to replies on the first post. I guess everyone is trying to get in their .02.
anyways, as far as mac computers, of course their overpriced. i mean, i've seen and read of too many stories about mac components (especially their display problems recently) being overpriced, and actually UNDER spec'd. Eh, the over priced thing is one thing...some things can always be justified, but the under-delivered/under-spec'd is criminal.
@Proud Japanese: Here's a challenge for you. Go to the Apple web site and take note of the specs of one of their off-the-shelf systems.
Then go to the sites of other vendors and build an identical system.
I did this comparison against Dell, and I found two things...
1. Dell almost always uses older versions of components. For example, if the Apple has 2GB 1066MHz DDR3 SD-RAM, the Dell usually has 2GB 667MHz or 800MHz DDR2 SD-RAM. I found the same applies to their choice of graphics cards, adoption of the latest Intel processors and so forth.
2. Despite this, if the Apple system is more expensive, it is usually not $500 more as Ballmer asserts. It is more like $100-200 more. Still a difference, but you are getting more than just a logo for that money, as I explained in my first point.
In one instance, I tried comparing Mac Pros to Dell's PowerEdge systems, and despite massively inferior hardware, the Dell was more expensive.
That's not to say that Apple doesn't charge ridiculous amounts if you veer from their off-the-shelf options - their RAM and hard drive upgrade prices are excessive. But you using that to attack Mac users who go elsewhere for these upgrades is very backwards: it just proves we're not the mindless drones who buy up everything Apple branded.
I know there are more affordable systems out there, but they - unlike Apple - really do use cheapo components to achieve those price points. So yes, if you want to pay a few hundred bucks for an ugly little box with some shonky, feature-restricted version of Windows on it (because none of these systems ever ship with Windows Vista Ultimate for that money), be my guest.