Despite General Motors'
problems, the company has affirmed, reaffirmed and
swore on its life that the
Volt would hit the highway in 2010 come hell, high water or insolvency. That said, we reckon coming through on that vow is going to get a lot tougher without a few more billion from the United States Energy Department. You see, GM had applied for $10.3 from the entity, and $2.6 billion of that was to be set aside for building the all-electric sedan and two derivatives of it (as well as a third hybrid model, we're told). Unfortunately for it, all that cheddar is being held up due to its inability to pass a "financial viability test in order to simply survive." Not surprisingly, GM is assuring the world that the government's final decision won't stop the Volt from going on sale this November, but it also said that bankruptcy wouldn't be needed just a few months ago. Ahem. [Warning: read link requires subscription]
posted Apr 13th 2009 12:36PM
It's over...GM will cease to exist as a company by the end of this year.
I doubt it. They may go bankrupt but that in and of itself absolutely does not imply they will be going away. A number of Airlines wen't bankrupt and they're still around in one form or another.
Frankly, we should have let these guys go bankrupt to begin with rather than give them money. They won't cease to exist and the bankruptcy process will allow/force them to legally make the necessary changes/restructuring that may make them profitable again.
Bring on the bankruptcy so the Unions can wither away!
Then GM may actually be able to survive in the future.
@ Weet
+1
So we get our bailout money back right? . . . . . . right?
@ suijin - it seems to me that if GM files bankruptcy, the government LOANs they received [not bailouts] would be subject to renegotiation, just like all their other debt.
the only way you're going to "get [y]our ... money back" is if they stay afloat.
GM = Gimme More
GM = Got Money
GM = Going Mad
GM = Gross Mismanagement
@nat: Just so you know I have a nickname of Sarcastro in some circles.
Best part is thinking back to them asking for the bailout, where everyone was saying there were going to be a ton of lost jobs if we didn't bail them out. I really don't see see how there aren't going to be a ton of lost jobs no matter what. They really can't stay that big and be viable, AKA there will be lost jobs, a lot of them.
No kidding. Jobs in the auto sector will disappear if the Big 3 dies? Forgive me for rolling on the floor laughing, as most auto-related business entities are already half-dead and finished shedding a good deal of their employees! My company sure has cut back on a lot of people, and I'm probably next on the chopping block if we don't get new orders/jobs soon. It's gotten bad enough that they're making the younger electrical engineers, myself included, work on wiring job panels at our shop instead of programming/designing.
** Preston Tucker is laughing from his grave **
No pity. They had an all electric car General Motors EV1 in the 1990s. This is your own faulty GM... time for bankruptcy and to shed the bad parts and hopefully people.
see this is the stuff thats irritating about the american people, they watch a movie that is obviously bias and not telling the entire story, and they hold that biased crap up as straight fact without researching the other side of the story.
Dear pompous non-american [SmilinGoat], please do us the honors and provide the other side of the story. i look forward to it. thanks.
signed,
irritating american
the other side of the story as best I can make it:
"Poor GM, the rest of the automakers, and the poor poor oil tycoons were worried that new technology and better competition would lead to smaller revenue streams. So poor GM and the rest of the little rascals were forced to stifle this technology and innovation so they could keep putting the much needed buckets of gold on their families tables. All the while convincing us that the technology is so futuristic, that is would take years of innovation to be able to get more electric vehicles out on the roads. Poor automakers, they have it so hard."
or... gm is forced to make an electric car to comply CA standards. gm builds a car leases it out as a testing program. The cars cost about $80,000 to make, and GM cancels the program due to it draining money, and no new battery tech developments.
Discovered by the Germans in 1904, they named it San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's vagina.
The EV1's legend is better than its reality. If electric cars were really so great in 1996, why is there no good, cheap electric car even today? Why has Toyota waited so long to make a plug in hybrid, let alone a 100% electric? Why are Tesla and Fisker so expensive?
Stories about the oil companies pressuring GM are silly. GM has been losing market share for 30 years. If they could make a viable and popular electric car that would save the company, there's nothing the oil companies could do to dissuade them.
The early EV1 used lead acid batteries, which would've been useless in cold climates. Later models used NiMH which had trouble in hot climates. Range was low and recharge times were long. Prices for real-world sales would've been high and battery lifetimes would be a couple of years.
Basically, no one would have bought the EV1. That's why GM stopped production. If you don't like it, go out a buy an electric car now. At whatever price it costs, and accepting whatever shortcomings it has.
basically, cliff notes are that due to current federal regulations on offering cars, you also have to offer service to these cars for a certain amount of time, electric cars are/were expensive, especially to fix. so when these cars were found not to be profitable, they decided to wait for the technology to catch up (something that might be happening now). If GM *or toyota/honda/ford* just sold the cars they had already made, then they would also be taking the long term cost of producing these rarely used parts for only a few cars. cost would have been very large, instead they decided to scrap them all (all companies did this) they crushed them and recycled what they could.
this is a very basic reason why it happened, also as stated, it was not just GM, it was all major manufacturers, GM just put more money into it, which some how makes them the "worst" at the same time...
@Smilingoat Well you are completely passing over the part where the oil companies lobbied every day against the charging stations/infrastructure that needed to be built to make electric cars usable, instead they were asking for hydrogen stations and infrastructure knowing that the tech was so far off it couldn’t be a threat, which as we all know hasn’t quite panned out yet.
last i checked, oil companies =/= to auto companies.
The battery patents used in the ev1 were bought by oil companies. Toyota uses them in their hybrids and can only be used in conjuction with gasoline engines. Thats what was stopping companies from developing electric or plug-in vehicles. Now they are using different batter technology and lith-ion is coming down in cost.
thats all folks!
How pathetic.
Its sad, the company is not a bad one, made a few HUGE mistakes years ago and people arnt very forgiving. i dont think that Chevy/Cadillac/Buick have to worry much about not being around anymore, however chances are its going to be like UK care manufacturers, only american by original origin. most likely will be Indian or something.
i find it sad, but hell i find it sad that people dont even consider american cars just because they are american, if you do a little research, they are actually very good on average, and some seriously good ones, just like any other region that makes cars (even japan has a lot of sub par cars, and Europe has more than average if your talking reliability)
Time for it to tank. Funny thing, while looking at a new car for the summer, never once looked a GM even though they are in the news so much recently. Hope they weren't trying to use all that news for publicity.
The New 2010 Chevy Volt, the first and last car by Chevrolet brought to you by Dodge.
if only instead of going bankrupt gm would willingly divide itself into three seperate entities.. gm europe (saab, opel, vauxhaull, holden (australlia))... chevrolet (consisting of chevy and cadillac), gm (consisting of gmc, pontiac, buick) and then sell saturn or toss it also into the gm europe since all but 1 model is designed in europe anyway, and then kill off their stupid idea of a brand.. aka hummer.
that would be a way the government would give money and the chevy volt could still be produced :-)
GM thinks it can save it's company by cloning the Prius... There are plenty of new emerging US auto companies emerging with the fail of GM. Fisker, Tesla to name a few. 2 new auto companies w/cool designs and w/o unions.
With GM's fall, the US auto industry has a bright future.
Tell me, do you find ignorance to actually be bliss? Because your post if full of it (ignorance).
G'bye
I fail to understand why they need so much money for this. Seriously.
A friend of mine built one of those AC Cobra kits on a Mustang frame in 1989. He put in a big electric motor and a bunch of golf cart batteries in the trunk. Thing hit 60 in under 8 seconds, and would go about 20 miles if you drove "normally", less if you put the wood to it. Total cost was about $10,000, since the chassis was from a wreck and essentially free, but the point is, this was a one off project using 1989 battery technology.
Now, the Volt is a different animal, but why it is taking GM so many years to design and build, what is essentially not much different from what my friend built, except it has a gas powered generator to charge the batteries and a computer to control the charging, etc?
This thing is going to be too expensive, and if GM needs $10 billion from the government to make it happen, I say give that money to a hungrier, better run company like Tesla, and GM can keep what is likely to be a steaming pile anyway.
GM, seriously, go bankrupt already. I'll say one thing for Ford, they are making a go of it without sucking on the tit of the taxpayer...
obviously craigj you have never done anyform of research as to what all new technology is going into the chevy volt... it is a whole new beast.. its technology is by far better and beyond that of the prius which the average joe thinks is the greatest hybrid ever (and it isn't).
Actually, I have. The point is, for all the research, for all the dollars spent, for all the funding from the government, they are building an electric car that will go (maybe) 40 miles on a charge before the gasoline engine kicks in, which will cost in excess of $40,000 for the owner, probably assuming some government assistance.
Think about that. An electric car that carries it's own generator (just like Diesel locomotives have for a many, many years), which is cool, but can only go 40 miles on a charge. Honestly, I don't care what kind of research has been done, 40 miles in a car that cost $40K isn't acceptable in my book, when you can do essentially the same thing with 20 year old tech for much cheaper.
I did the math on this for my self. I drive 30 miles round trip to work, so the Volt would work for me. My current car gets 23 MPG, so I burn 6.5, call it 7 gallons of gas a week. At current prices that is $14. At $5 a gallon that is $35.
Assuming $5 a gallon, I'd spend about $2,000 a year on gas. My current car is paid for, and the energy and resources used to build it are a sunk cost. To replace it with this would cost about $45,000 including taxes. If we assume that the electricity to charge it is free (in reality it probably costs $.40 to charge it), to recoup my costs would take 22.5 years, with gas at $5. Gas at $2.50 it would take 40 years, and I doubt the car would last that long.
It is far cheaper, and far greener to simply continue driving my existing car.
Now, I will need to at some point replace my current car, but I'm not going to pay $40K for an electric car that only gets 40 miles on a charge and then starts burning gas to generate electricity. My money is on a full electric using lithium phosphate or other advanced batteries that can go 300+ miles on a charge, and can be recharged in under an hour. That I would pay $40K for. Until then I'll just drive the car that I have.
Of course the tech and actual parts do not reflect the cost of production. What the huge over pricing of current electric vehicles coming out of old factories is the overhead of retrofitting. Also the cost of the labor that they use (all unionized workers that have mandated things to enable them to be as slow or fast at their job as they feel) which unionized work cost is ENORMOUS. Also the deeply ingrained oil company money flowing through it. Con Ed is kicking back anything I would guess that helps the wallet get alittle heavier for these execs. Id personally love to see these documents and wonder if they have to be published in their entirety with the library of congress.
A ton of fluff is what this money is for and the way we do business here in america.
*isnt* kicking back....
CraigJ
Your friend did NOT "essentially" do the same thing that GM was doing. His battery was NOT warrantied to last for 10 years/150,000 miles, it did NOT have on board diagnostics to diagnose emissions related problems on the vehicle, it essentially had nothing that car manufacturers have to consider when building any car, much less a car that can propel the wheels with electric motors.
Trying to compare your friends junkyard EV project to a full production vehicle is as smart as standing in water and playing with electricity.
I don't care about all that crap.
Every car manufactured after 1970something has an on board ECU - modern engines won't run without them. An ECU is nothing new. Diesel Locomotives have batteries, generators, and definitely have on board diagnostics. This is most assuredly not new technology, in fact diesel-electric hybrids have been around since the 30s or 40s. The battery pack isn't new either - it's lithium-something (I don't know if it's cobalt or phosphate)
I understand that ramping up production on a new car requires retooling of the production line, and that they need to sell a large number of cars to break even before they turn a profit, but That's the same no matter what kind of car you're making, and while this is new for GM, there really isn't a lot of brand new technology in this car, GM is just putting it together in a new package. A singularly unappealing package IMO.
The point is, that he (friend) built essentially a prototype, in his garage, with a set of craftsman tools, a car that would meet many people's needs. 20 mile range (more with more batteries), reasonably reliable, and fast. And I beg to differ, but the car did, in fact, have a charger/controller that would not allow the batteries to be completely drained, and managed the charging to ensure no overcharge. No, it didn't have an LCD display for the driver, but it worked. All of this was 20 years ago. Why can't GM figure all this out? This car (Volt) is going to have a very limited audience. it's expensive, it only goes 40 miles on a charge, and it will be a first year model, which means that it WILL have issues.
Also, if you can guarantee that the water is 100% de-ionized I have no problem playing with electricity...
GM will likely go into receivership, and it is also likely the Chevy Volt is going to be part of someone else's entourage (design might be sold).
They asked for a loan of $10.3? Never imagined R&D was that cheap these days :)
Recession must be hitting them hard ;)
Piss poor reporting by engadget. http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/13/government-asks-gm-to-prepare-for-bankruptcy-dont-worry-volt-will-be-fine/
Private small companies are making electric cars that are almost getting 300 miles per charge with NO gas motor. GM dropped the ball a LONG time ago on electric technology and innovation. Instead they pushed ugly designs and MOSTLY low quality cars out. Its sad, I live here in Detroit and grew up in Flint. In the end though, it will have been the greedy union and employees, that brought this company down. Why didn't someone look at this a long time ago and realize this was factory labor workers making 3 times what most other factory employees made, AND they had the best benefits of anyone in town. That may work when you are on top of the market and swimming in cash, but its not sustainable. How can you innovate, when you have to overpay your employees and pass the costs on to the consumer?
Now we have the greatest company in US history on the brink of collapse.
+1.
I wouldn't buy a GM because they are, as you say , ugly, and generally poorly made compared to other manufacturers. The Corvette is fairly well made and a nice car, but since GM took tax payer money I wouldn't even consider buying one, just on general principals.
If Ford get's off their ass and builds something decent, I might consider it.
Hmm that's strange, Buick holds the top spot for quality at JDPowers. How is that such a poor quality built is holding up so well?
@sk That was where the "mostly" came in. All of our US automakers have SOME decent cars, but in the end that might not be good enough. Unfortunately they have had horrible ones as well, and for many years they go on unchanged. A lesson could be learned from a company like Subaru that doesn't have a single low quality or low rated car in its entire line up.
not only buick is classified as one of the best vehicles.. but if you look at there general line up in the past few years they have become very sleek looking cars and in the last half-decade to decade they have improved the quality of all their vehicles. heck most of their cars are ranked better then their european counterparts... now mind you i traded off 2 gm cars for 1 vw about 3 years ago (i only did so since gm was running through their money so quickly i could see that they would be in some severe financial hurt and the resale to both of my cars would be all but gone)
Buick only has 3 models. I am sure they are all comfortable, they always have been, but I wouldn't want any of them. Maybe the Enclave for $8k less than the $35k asking price.
At $75k a year, I might not be Buick's target audience. Too rich for my blood.
So what was the point off all the loans they gave to GM. Wouldn't it just be smarter to have forced them into bankruptcy last December. Now when they go bankrupt and can't reemerge a viable company, what will happen to to the loans? They may sell off their assets, but will it be enough to pay all of their creditors?
This is GM's fault and the governments fault. GM has focused on SUVs for far too many years. They killed off the EV1 and choose to produce SUVs. If they had been like Toyota and made cars that people wanted to buy they would not be in this mess. Moral hazard should have been at play when they first showing signs of failure; however the opposite happened, the government started giving them loans and thus rewarding idiocy in on the GM board of directors. In the end who gets stuck with the bill, the American public.
I don't get why the focus on the Volt - the car sucks - even in theory for MPG. I'd much rather have a honda, lexus or toyota hybrid. I'd much rather have a tesla (despite the transmission issues) or fiscar all electric. I'd rather have a moped than any vehicle made by GM. I cringe every time I get a rental car at the airport that is made by GM- I can't hate them enough. How the hell the company has survived to this day is stunning to me. Perhaps 40 years ago they made good vehicles but their ergonomics, technology and build quality are wretched. My last rental had 280 HP and yet my ford escort from 1984 could blow this vehicle off the line and got much better gas mileage and I would say comfort wise they were about equal. What the hell is Chevy doing that people other than rental places would ever consider a purchase? My only guess is nostalgia for when a cadillac or a corvette was an iconic vehicle.
So you much rater get stranded in a Tesla when the battery is empty than having an on-board backup generator that keeps your batteries constantly above 30% charge.
sk - pretty sure you could easily get stranded in either. I don't think the head of GM would have had a team of mechanics following him during his brief part of the ride from detroit to DC in this vehicle. If you read the article he was only trapped behind the wheel a very brief portion of the drive. He was transported by other means until the very final part of the trip. If the head of GM doesn't want to be stuck behind the wheel of this vehicle - what poor schmuck wants to be that fool?
And this is on Engadget because... ?
To prove that most posters on engadget don't understand or know anything about the automotive industry or business in general.
It would be nice if the headline and writeup were correct, but they aren't. When that is the case and the technology behind it isn't explained at all, it is better off just being on autoblog.
Game over GM
GM = Greedy Motherf&^*#&*!
Such a great idea, buying a first gen car from GM. How many people are going to die in this thing I wonder. You'll have first responders to an accident looking at people wondering around covered in battery acid like the gang member that just got covered in nuclear waste in robocop, all the while the garbled OnStar voice telling everyone to remain calm sparks fire and everything explodes.
"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."
From what I understand they are having issues with the battery technology. GM did screw up, they got GREEDY and abandoned the EV-1 to focus on, p/u trucks. I can not believe that will all the smart people at GM and even going through the 1974 gas crunch no one thought to think ahead 10 years. They could have kept the technology growing if they kept the EV-1 but no they got greedy. They make mediocre cars while the top executive rake in hundreds of millions in salaries and bonuses. I can't even fathom that kind of money. Imagine getting a nice fat $40M dollar check as a bonus! What for? Sales have been declining for 10 years and the cars were getting marginally better but still not as good as their rivals.
The Volt will never see the light of day, and if it does not with a GM badge.
does anyone else find it funny that Honda is more american then GM and Ford combined. Just throwin that out their.
What? by sending their profits overseas to Japan?
Actually no. Honda uses more american parts then these so called american cars. About 70% of what goes into a GM Ford or Dodge (give or take a few) is from overseas. It's their way of saving money. Ford and GM mostly just assemble here in the states. Where do you think all the parts come from. Honda actually manufactures most of their parts here in the US. Honda is actually helping America where GM and Ford are taking our bailout money.
@Gurg:
Exactly.
Hmm. I'm feeling we need to absorb GM into our system,nationalize it for some time as a nationalized corporation. We need to grand unto Ford any tax benefits that we give GM, so that GM would not have an unfair advantage from the competitive standpoint.
I would also give Ford the option of technology sharing and co development. We could nationalize some technological development on the backend as long as we still have the companies sell their own takes on it on the front end, that would leave Ford relatively untouched,and again, it would be their own initiative.
I am very proud of Ford, and i really don't like them. They have survived and made most of the changes on their own. GM got fat and Chrysler has just been a mess.
Just wanted to say i got the 2004 Impala at an auto auction recently and i'm really really happy with that. I would like to see the american manufacturers look into cutting weight, we have the engineers. Still, that's a nice car, have a Buick Skylark from 96 still running well here and that car has great handling, mileage, and sound. Interior has some issues but it's the dash build and not the materials.
Well here comes the chance for the American auto industry to start over, evolution breeds smarter players.
Well said
Reading these comments, I find that I am amazed. Why is it that Americans love to see other Americans fail? Where are all those Uber patriotic Americans now? Sure GM made some mistakes - all auto manufacturers are suffering and many foreign companies have received bailouts from their governments too - but why does any American want to see one of the last American manufacturers go bankrupt? GM employs tens of thousands of people, and the impact of their failure will affect thousands, if not millions more. Are you jealous because they had a strong union and were able to negotiate a living wage? Will you feel better about your crappy job when they have lost theirs? Will their misfortune make you feel better about yours? Do you know the story of how Toyota became the largest auto manufacture in the world? After WWII the Japanese government kicked all foreign automakers out and took a company called “TOYODA AUTOMATIC LOOM WORKS” and nurtured them until they were able to figure out how to make and sell cars in America. It wasn't easy ("made in Japan" used to mean "cheap imitation" and second-rate quality to most Americans until the '50s) but they figured it out. I realize GM needs to change its ways, but it would be a tragedy for them to go out of business, because once the American car is gone it will never come back, all we will have left are foreign cars. Will you feel like GM finally was taught a lesson? I suppose you'll feel better because they got what they deserved, and when no one has a good job in America, you will have got it too. How come “too big to fail” only applies to companies who don't make anything? Companies who robbed and stole their way to an economic meltdown? Free money for BIG BANKS=good. Loans for American workers = BAD. Do yourself a favor and stop reveling in others misfortune. "A rising tide lifts all ships".
finally someone commenting with common sense.
I don't know about other people but for me i realized that in America we do things very well. In pretty much everything except the auto industry. Look at NASA. We're the only country in the world that has a reusable space shuttle and it looks good. We are the primary builders of the ISS. Basically, we completely destroy any other country in the space industry. Look at other tech industries. We have Microsoft, Apple, Google, Palm, etc (silicon valley). These companies have all brought tons of innovation and continue to stay on top of their respective industry. And then look at the auto industry. For the last 20 years or so, it's been an embarrassment and now everybody knows and has gotten the mentality stuck in their heads that American cars are bad. So think about that. Is it because we lack intelligence or innovation to make great cars? No. (look at NASA, silicon valley, etc) So what is it? I'm sure it's a number of things, like bad decisions here and there and unions, etc. But i think a lot of it is greed. The US automakers knew they had the upper hand in America 20 years ago so they threw quality out the door to make bigger profits. That's what frustrates me so much about them. Because I know we can compete with European and Japanese companies easy, if we wanted to. But they just simply didn't want to. So yes, I'm gonna be sad to see GM go because I'm an American and I don't like to see businesses go under. But at the same time, I hope it teaches them and all other car companies in America to quit settling for less than the best when making cars.
Never come back? Um...no, it would be more of a starting over thing. Build great cars with great craftsmanship, that people want. Oh, and pay your employees a wage that you can stay in business supporting.
I would think ALL Americans are proud of this countries auto heritage and hope we always have a leading automotive future. I don't know many that would say there is much to be proud of these days though. Maybe the Corvette and Cadillac. Myself, I would add Viper and Wrangler.
Truth is, even if you have NO interest in EV cars, Tesla has the brightest innovation we have in the industry right now.
GM needs to go bankrupt and divest themselves of the ludicrous union contracts. They need to consolidate instead of creating the same basic car under 3 brand names. They need to focus on building stuff that people want. There is a reason that people buy more Hondas and Toyota.
Bottom line is that GM needs to get lean, and build good stuff.
Bankruptcy does not mean closing their doors, it does not mean that everyone gets fired. It means that GM reorganizes, reworks the product lines, and that new contracts are negotiated and a lot of people take pay cuts.
riddle me this. How is it that the employees at the Honda plants in the US make less money than the UAW workers at GM, yet Honda utilizes, on average, more American labor, and builds higher quality cars? The UAW is the primary issue hurting GM. It's not the only issue, but it's the biggest one. The UAW has not only bitten the hand that feeds it, it has mauled it up to the shoulder and started on the legs...
FYI - Toyoda Automatic Loom Works established its automobile department in 1933. Years before WWII, not as a result of WWII. Perhaps the Japanese realized they needed some home grown industries to help their economic revival instead of looking to boost profits of other coutries. This sort of isolationist policy has its merits.
Regardless of how you feel Toyota America employs many Americans in their American facilities in various positions from sales, mechanics, assembly, accounting, engineering, lawyers, trucking, etc.
Americans want to see GM go bankrupt for 2 reasons, IMHO.
First, as Americans, we believe in the market ideals that lead America to be a leader in almost every industry. We believe in capitalism and we believe that failing companies should fail to make way for better, smarter, more competitive companies. If GM dies, the American car industry certainly DOES NOT die with it.
Second, GM is ravaged by it death grip that is union labor contracts. Bankruptcy would provide for a means for GM to finally rid themselves of these ridiculous wage rates and maybe have a fighting chance for survival.
The car illustrated in this article has an uncanny resemblance to the European Honda Civic in my opinion...
If you look at engadget's electric car tag you'll see there are all sorts of companies making electric cars, from big companies like Mitsubishi to small companies like Fisker. Why is it GM needs $2.6billion to do what Fisker has done with a tiny fraction of that amount? If GM can't make a car with less than $2.6billion it's very clear that the company is broken beyond repair and should be allowed to die peacefully instead of giving it more money to waste.
It's called scale. GM will build more Volt's in a day (when they're built) then Telsa has build so far. People keep forgetting building a "kit car" (Tesla) is not super hard. Tell Telsa/Fisker to build 200K cars and see how much money they would be asking for. Just the presses to stamp parts in a car take months of lead time to be custom made and cost millions of dollar each.
Despite that profits are still ending up in Japan
The reason I want GM and most likely Chrysler, fail is because of the auto unions. Their greed is what causes "American" cars to be so expensive, even though the quality sucks.
So let me get this straight... 1st of all you want GM and Chrysler to fail - why not FORD?- and it's because of the UNIONS? So do you hate all American workers? Or just the ones who make a good living by working? So I suppose you understand that the only reason you have any work related benefits is because of unions. They fought for your rights so you could take them for granted, the 40 hour week, overtime, safety regulation, workman's comp, lunch breaks, etc, etc. I suppose you think that companies would have gotten around to treating their workers fairly on their own, kind of a self regulating system? Sounds a lot like the banks and speculators regulating themselves doesn't it? That worked pretty well didn't it? I suppose you have first hand knowledge of how evil unions are right? Most European countries have strong unions and they seem to do pretty well. If GM didn't have to worry about the cost of health care ( i.e. Universal health care just like any other industrialized country where your favorite non-American cars are made.) they could save a ton of money manufacturing cars in the States. I don't know where you work, but I hope the rest of America isn't looking forward to you losing your job.
Ryan, the unions did a lot of good in the past. We have all sorts of labor laws now that we probably wouldn't have otherwise. The problem is that the Unions got greedy and now they are of a size, and control more power than the "big bad car companies". The unions have become the big bad corporations they fought against in years past. They use their power and political influence to force bad contracts on the companies and to increase their own wealth and power. I believe everyone deserves a fair wage, but the pay and benefits that UAW workers get, relative to the skills required and services rendered are completely out of touch with reality.
I love to see companies that deserve to fail, fail. I don't see the mom and pop who opened a bakery that failed going to Congress to ask for money. If I f' up at my job - I deserve to be fired - plain and simple. And if I make millions of dollars while f'ing up an entire company - I deserve heavy fines (everything I make and possibly more) as well as jail time for ruining the livelihood of so many dependent people who don't make 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 digits a year.
Of course I also hate Unions as well. I had the displeasure of working in a shop run by the UAW mob when I was a younger lad. It made sure that people pushing brooms who were often caught sniffing glue in the assembly room couldn't be fired and made $14 an hour for refusing the education tax dollars pay for and for showing no job initiative whatsoever. It also prevented the company from returning greater return on the dollar and lowering prices to be more competive as we couldn't hire high school kids $3.48 per hour to do the same job with fewer breaks, and more effort.
The GM cars are poorly designed, poorly executed and rediculously priced. There is no reason the government needs to bail them out. If Ford makes a better product for the same money than they'll just get more business and so the jobs still go to Americans. If the Americans make no effort to make superior products than why buy them? You can give me a bunch of junk about taking care of our own or selling out to foreigners but in the end when we hit rock bottom we'll stop producing crap and move forward. If Ned Flander's left hand shop isn't making enough money to make ends meet, it isn't because foreigners are using left-handed business practices to steal his business, it is because the demand for something so few want - just doesn't exist.
Of course nothing is perfect. There are bad unions. But just because some are bad doesn't mean they are all bad. Should we get rid of every banker because some were greedy? Should we scrap the U.S. government because some people made bad choices? And as for the bailout. its loans the automakers are after, not free money. Unlike the bankers that everyone seems so content to help out (even though they made terrible decisions) who have no intention of repaying any of the money.
I wouldn't say ALL unions are bad as I haven't had experience with all. I can say I worked in the food industry, manufacturing industry and public sector and educational - in my opinion all those unions were worthless and only promoted laziness, a lack of regard for authority, a feeling of impunity and a gross feeling of entitlement.
I do feel though that the government has a responsibility to provide civil code enforcement, assist with public health, and assist with (not provide) education. The government has no role to provide grants for modern art, ebonics courses in public schools, after school activities or so many other things they are wasting their time with. If Johnny can't read - let him flunk out - it is his breeding parents who should be making sure he gets an education. The husband gets to have sex with her - so he bares the responsilibity of providing education and funding for the child - not me. If I'm going to have to pay for every brat that screams on a plane behind me than I should be having sex with every married women whose child goes though the public schools. Why the hell do I get the crying and the hand out and not get to enjoy the 5-10 minutes of fun that created the little bastard?
Mark my words:
-Bull
-Crap
-Merde
-Caca
No mather in what language ! It will never see the light of day !
American cars been bad so long that no one considers them anymore when purchasing a car. They've earned that and to change people's mind they got to prove it. Make the car cheaper, way longer warranty if you truly beleive your car will last and not make it so damn ugly. I mean who designs these american cars? A lot of them look like it was shit out of someone's ass. People want a combination of things when buying a car...if they thought american cars were better looking, fuel efficient, and reliable...who the hell wouln't buy it. You see a lot of dead cars on the road...and mostly american cars. Asking for so much handouts and still making bad decissions. Who wants a car company like that.
Have you even looked at American cars lately? I've owned Japanese, American and European cars, and the new American cars are better than EVER. Not all of there cars may appeal to you, but you have to at least acknowledge their quality. Read some reviews, American cars are doing well, and not every foreign car is great quality either. I'm only going to say this once... I'm tired of this whole "American Auto Manufactures need to build cars people want" crap. Pull your head out of the sand and look around. 7 out of 10 cars I see on the road are a truck or an SUV (foreign and domestic). It seems funny to me that no one wanted them, but the truck was the biggest selling single vehicle type in America for many years. I suppose Toyota and Nissan started importing full size pickups and SUV's because no one wanted them either. I don't remember them getting any better gas millage either. GM should have gotten focused on fuel efficiency years ago, but did you think they should just stop making pickups (that sell by the way, even today) because they didn't get great gas millage? If no one wanted or bought inefficient cars there wouldn't have been such a uproar about the high gas prices a year ago would there have been? So I guess someone wanted those cars...
I was in the market until I decided to hold off for a while. I looker at everything from every available manufacturer, and not a single car by any American car company apples to me on any level, especially in light of the offerings from Mazda, Nissan and Mini which were my final three. I really want to buy an American car, but I'm not going to compromise on what I want, and what I'm willing to pay, just to "buy American". Besides, of the 3 finalists, 2 of them are manufactured here in the US, in plants that employ Americans. The idea the there is any solely American manufacturing company anymore is a fallacy.
+1 Ryan. Most people haven't even looked at American cars lately. While I'm not a Ford fan and consider them the bottom of the American barrel even they are improving greatly. GM has 3 great cars in the CTS, Malibu and Aura and a really good if not great one in the G6. All have great styling, interiors and mileage around 30mpg.
@ Craig: Nissan makes some quality cars too.
that's why they were in my final 3. I have 2 Nissans right now. In fact, every car that I've ever owned has been a Nissan or a Ford, except for 1 VW. AFAIK Mazda and Nissans are built in the US. I don't know about the Mini...
For 10.3, I could start an auto company that makes electric cars. Why give it to a company, such as GM, that wants electric cars to fail?
Does everyone fail to realize that if GM goes under they will drag Fords and Chrysler down too?? Also, so we seriously want to be at the mercy of all foreign auto companies? sounds just dumb to me.
I hope everyone understands any GM bankruptcy will mean the U.S. government will take over those "legacy costs" including pensions and health care.
It will be very expensive for U.S. taxpayers if it happens.