Time Warner and Embarq can't compete with city-owned ISP, trying to outlaw it

Man, Time Warner Cable -- you are some shady players. Hot on the heels of the ISP's decision to withdraw DOCSIS 3.0 trials from areas that have rejected its tiered billing plan, we're hearing that TWC's teamed up with Embarq to persuade the North Carolina state government into banning community-owned broadband services. Why? Well, turns out the 47,000 residents of Wilson, NC got tired of paying for slow broadband, so the city government launched its own fiber ISP called Greenlight that offers some pretty solid packages ranging from $99 for 81 cable channels, unlimited phone service, and 10Mbps (down and up) internet to $170 for every single channel including premiums and 20Mbps up/down internet. (There's even a "secret" 100Mbps up/down internet plan.) Of course, these prices blow TWC and Embarq out of the water -- the comparable basic Time Warner plan has fewer channels and less bandwidth for an "introductory rate" of $137 -- and rather than compete, the two giants decided to lobby the North Carolina legislature into proposing bills that outlaw community services like Greenlight. The argument is that the big companies can't turn a profit and compete against a community-owned enterprise that essentially sells service for cost, but we're not buying it -- if anything, TWC and Embarq can invest the extra profits they've been earning in other areas into building services that would blow Greenlight out of the water. Yep, it's definitely some dirty pool -- does anyone have any positive feelings left for these behemoths?

[Thanks, William; image courtesy of IndyWeek]

Read - DailyTech article
Read - IndyWeek article
Read - Greenlight home page
Read - Save NC Broadband blog

[Jimmy Jones @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:10PM]

Calling TWC rightnow to cancel my standard cable for Boxee, Zinc. I get my live sports online anyway. All the time via various sources....p2p etc.

TWC only have me in the balls w/HS plan..otw, if Verizon Fios was around, i'll be long gone..

[loocas @ Apr 23rd 2009 6:09AM]

Did anyone notice the "1 Megabit = 1000 Kilobits" nonsense? o_O

How would they feel if you paid them the $35 USD by only 2000 cents?

[Chad @ Apr 23rd 2009 8:40AM]

@engadget.com (the commenter, not the website)
From Greenlightnc.com
Will my taxes go up because this project is so expensive?

No. The funds for constructing the fiber network come from bonds issued by the City of Wilson. Tax revenues are not being used to fund this project in any way.

Maybe the article was one-sided because the argument is inherently one sided. Before making accusations, do a little research.

[kjb434 @ Apr 23rd 2009 9:01AM]

Chad, who's paying off those bonds? What if the subscriber base can't make the bond payment in the future? Oh yeah, the tax payer will be picking it up then!

[Grant G @ Apr 23rd 2009 9:30AM]

@engadget.com
"The downside of charging subscriber fees is that even though all residents must pay for some part of costs - only those willing or able to pay for the complete suite of services are allowed to reap the benefits of the taxes or fees that fund it."

You do realize all big telecoms/cable receive government funding to extend their networks to areas that "need" them, except the government doesn't define what "need" is and then they just basically pocket the money with minimal improvements?
You are already having some of your tax money given away to these companies by the national government, and these companies are recording ridiculous profits.

An organization that shows it can provide good service for a fair price is nothing but a good thing for the consumer. Frankly, any competition in an industry as overpriced as TV/internet is good because competition drives down prices.

[dj-kenpo @ Apr 23rd 2009 9:35AM]

@engadget.com (commenter)
WOW some americans are really fucking paranoid eh?

suckling from the teet?
ahh the guvernmentz! run!

[TexRob @ Apr 23rd 2009 9:54AM]

Please please please Wilson, extend this service to Clayton, we're only about 30mins away, less if you are talking city limit to city limit.

I am so fed up with TWC. In Austin, where I recently left, the tiered garbage is either there or coming, and I want no part of it.

[Slappy Wag @ Apr 23rd 2009 12:05PM]

All big business handles these situations as follows: "If someone else comes out with a competing product, we do not attempt to compete. We SUE them or we get the state to declare their version illegal."

Maybe "Sue unto others before they sue unto you"?

[Sudo @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:10PM]

North Carolina kicks ass. I'm in Goldsboro, not far from Wilson at all.

[eddie @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:14PM]

god i hate goldsboro. shithole.



(no offence to you)

[Dopefish @ Apr 22nd 2009 9:00PM]

@quantumphysics

I can't believe that internet is so expensive in the US. I pay £18($27)/mo in the UK for 24Mb/s down and 8Mb/s up and thats the going rate for broadband here.

Its even cheaper/faster if you get cable

[freshyill @ Apr 22nd 2009 9:52PM]

I get off I-95 at Wilson! Who knew it was more than just an exit? Now I'll be pissed off every time I drive past it.

[DannyP @ Apr 22nd 2009 10:51PM]

You yokels are getting robbed blind!! Time warner sux!! NC sux!! NJ FTW!!

[Indefinite Implosion @ Apr 22nd 2009 11:35PM]

@ Dopefish
you think they have it bad?
have you seen the prices for broadband in Australia?!
for AU$30 dollars you get 512kbps down/128kbps up and you have 5gb of download per month... then pay more if you go over 5gb
it's ridiculous.
although it is better in some city centres, that's pretty much it everywhere.
then you can pay more and get "unlimited" internet, such as I have... which means when you get to a certain limit (12gb/month for me) on the "unlimited" plan your internet gets shaped (slowed down to dial up speed)

[fischju @ Apr 23rd 2009 1:04AM]

These prices are more an issue with logistics (not to say the providers aren't lazy). The UK is much smaller than the US and Australia, the total FIOS grid in the US is probably larger than the UK. Australia is also large, but has a limited amount of bandwidth coming into the country, and almost all traffic is international.

[suicycle.com @ Apr 23rd 2009 7:46AM]

Since when are corporate profits more important than the needs of the citizens? (Oh, I forgot, this is the United States.)

From a purely capitalistic standpoint, though, any company that offer a better quality product at a substantially cheaper product is probably going to get more business than its competitors. I am not for monopolies, but at the same time, if no competitor can offer a better quality product/service or offer me a better price, then I am probably not going to care how many other "choices" I have in the marketplace.

TWC and Embarq are not making any claims about their services being better. They are suppressing competition by saying their competitor is impairing their own ability to compete. I have not heard of Embarq before, but I know TWC has been around for a while. They could have gotten to the point of offering this level of service by now. Instead, they chose to squeeze every last penny they could out of customers. Now, they're getting slapped in the face.

What we need is for this to happen in other industries (e.g., cell phone carriers).

Before anyone rips me for wanting people to lose their jobs, keep in mind that the community's service is going to require people with the same skills as the people that administer the corporation's service. If I worked for TWC in Wilson, NC, I would have put in an application at Greenlight weeks ago.

[Carl @ Apr 23rd 2009 8:19AM]

Um.....yea. I guess that would make up for the outrageous other fees the state charges. I'd be more than happy to ditch charter for this any day. Which I probably will anyways once I get my ridiculous balance paid off.

and TWC, if you can't make a profit, quite whining and going after the little guys and change your services to something people will actually want to buy or leave. Geez. :rolleyes:

[John @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:11PM]

God, It's so nice to see that people hate Time Warner as much as I do.

[ash @ Apr 23rd 2009 2:02AM]

I would actually know what oppression feels like if TWC was the only ballgame in town. Thankfully our local cable provider in AZ (Cox) haven't descended to the pits of hell with TWC yet.

I sure hope we have the prospect of FiOS before they do.

[Verified Insanity @ Apr 23rd 2009 2:16AM]

What you can get from Time Warner and its cost:
10 GB of monthly data: Way too much.
Customer Support: Calculated randomly by how many times a fish's gills flair in a minute.
"Oh, you wanted the PACKAGE?": 400 dollars in phone calls.
Hating the -------s at TWC: Completely ----ing priceless.

I hate TWC with a freekin' PASSION.

Sadly, they have a monopoly. DANG IT VERIZON, RUN SOME FIOS THROUGH MANHATTAN!

:(

[OneLove @ Apr 23rd 2009 10:36AM]

Have you guys forgotten about comcast?

[Jared @ Apr 23rd 2009 11:40AM]

I have comcast... Not much better man

[Lars @ Apr 23rd 2009 4:23PM]

Speaking of FiOS, why's it missing from the chart? I know it's not too widespread yet, but I live in the boonies (eastern So Cal) and I even get it. 15mbps is pretty sweet.

[Harkonian @ Apr 24th 2009 2:17PM]

The day FIOS comes to my area is the day I give the finger to TW.

[eddie @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:12PM]

i live in wilson, NC and we love greenlight.



time warner used to be a huge monopoly and charged whatever they wanted. and they services were balls.



i seriously dont know ANYONE who uses timewarner / embarq

[Kerber @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:55PM]

I live about an hour away, in Chapel Hill. It's almost worth moving... Any chance this community-ISP scheme will catch on to neighboring cities?? (please)

[Justin E @ Apr 22nd 2009 8:06PM]

Kerber, I would do the same if they'd move the university too!

[John @ Apr 22nd 2009 9:57PM]

This also makes me think about moving from Chapel Hill. Maybe we should start out own community ISP.

[Brad Green @ Apr 23rd 2009 2:22AM]

On the upside, students in CH have access to a ridiculously fast connection that is much faster than what Greenlight offers. That said, no one else has access to it, so it doesn't really count. Last test I did (2 seconds ago) 30 mbps, though I have gotten 80 before streaming Vista ISOs off of Akamai servers.

[cake @ Apr 23rd 2009 10:17AM]

You should tell whoever is running this whole Greenlight thing to spread their services to the Raleigh-Durham area and the Triad area!

[bandigolo @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:12PM]

Now that's what I call a Triple Play!

[jkudlacz @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:14PM]

We need to stand up against big companies such as TWC, and make them give us best product for best price. I do not believe that Greenlight is offering their products at cost, how are they maintaining their info structure. I want more competition and better options.

TWC been screwing people over and over. We need government to step in and take care of this shady business.

[dyt1983 @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:26PM]

"Cost" can mean after paying for everything with no "profit" attached. Even for "info structure."

[falconz @ Apr 22nd 2009 10:21PM]

Monopolies never give the consumer the lowest possible price. The only advantage TWC et al. should have in their favor is economies of scale. They should have a massive infrastructure. It makes you wonder where their profits are going. In cases like these, the market should be opened to competition. Either other companies, communities, or local government can enter the cable/phone/internet market.

[midnightprince7 @ Apr 22nd 2009 10:46PM]

do u mean we the people after all if it was no customers no one cannot collect nothing

[DaveyNC @ Apr 22nd 2009 10:48PM]

Dude, just cancel your subscription with them.

[midnightprince7 @ Apr 22nd 2009 11:24PM]

i don't even have twc i got northstate in high point, nc i hope the triad gets something like this soon, real soon

[bandigolo @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:14PM]

Although this is kinda BS since you can't have DirecTV or Dish with Greenlight unless you pay for a crappy cable service you'll never use just for the privilege.

[n_shakuras @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:14PM]

What the hell? A government doing something productive? I never thought I'd see the day.

[JohnTitor @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:16PM]

don't worry, the lobbyists are hard at work to change that

[Mark Leach @ Apr 23rd 2009 4:10AM]

Is it productive? Hoe do we know the municipal isn't selling the service at a loss? Are the funneling funds from property taxes or sales taxes to subsidize this system? How can any private company compete with that in the short term?

[MarkG @ Apr 23rd 2009 4:58AM]

As I understand it, Greenlight is a community project, not a state project. It's TWC that is trying to get the government involved, in order to hobble Greenlight. And they will be lobbying HARD, because if Greenlight projects start multiplying, TWC (et al) will be waving goodbye to a large chunk of their their profits.

[jasontl @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:17PM]

TWC really sucks, i'm calling right now and switching to AT&T. I was on the fence before when the tier pricing was mentioned. But now this, well this has made up my mind.

[Fred @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:21PM]

AT&T isn't any better, and in my area they both cost more and are even more unreliable. We need to get rid of these Cable-DSL duopolies and give everyone the right to use whatever service they want. No government should be allowed to grant monopolies to private industry.

[68newyorker @ Apr 22nd 2009 8:24PM]

It's a waste of a comment but want to make sure Fred gets backed up:

The issue here is government granted monopolies to cable and phone line/dsl companies. Granted, TWC clearly has no issue playing this game; they're perfectly happy using the government bludgeon against competitors. But, the answer is not "community" cable, which really means government cable, but removal of government from the market altogether. No protection, no intervention. No helping when you fail and no harming when you succeed.

[Tysto @ Apr 22nd 2009 10:46PM]

"...the answer is not "community" cable, which really means government cable, but removal of government from the market altogether. No protection, no intervention. No helping when you fail and no harming when you succeed."

Absolutely. Just because it's something that every citizen needs, that doesn't mean it should be a government service. I've got a little business providing sewage pickup a couple of times a month, but how can I compete when the government offers access to sewer pipes 24-7 for practically nothing? The government needs to get out of the sewage business and let us private businesses charge whatever the market will bear. For $100, I'll give you a monthly limit of 30 pounds of sewage. If you go over that limit, I charge $10 a pound.

Now, about my fire and police businesses.... I charge $150 for a service call, plus labor at $50 an hour per responder. Also, my 911-call service is staffed out of India.

[MarkG @ Apr 23rd 2009 5:08AM]

Didn't the government sanctioned monopolies come about because of a deal they did with the companies regarding the infrastructure?

Instead of paying for the infrastructure themselves, the government got the companies to pay for it, in return for a time-limited monopoly, in order for the telcos to be able to recoup their costs.

If that's the case, then TWC may actually win the case against Greenlight, because if the local government doesn't act to protect TWC's monopoly, TWC may turn around and say that the government has broken its contract, and demand compensation.

I really hope this wont happen, but you should never underestimate the power of corporations (just watch "The Corporation").

[Ken @ Apr 23rd 2009 10:56AM]

@MarkG

That only depends if the time has expired for TW. Given that there already is a second company co-lobbying with TW, I'd assume all expectations of a monopoly are off.

[The Dude @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:16PM]

"Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah, we can't bend customers over a barrel. Waahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh please intervene for us this time, government. We know that as corporate assholes we usually bitch about government intervention but that's just the kind of hypocritical douche bags we are."

[BigD145 @ Apr 22nd 2009 7:32PM]

"Waaah. We can't have "Free Market" with us as a Monopoly."

Gosh. Capitalism is so hard for corporate entities that don't abide by the rules of Capitalism.