Push up those glasses and refresh the lead in your mechanical pencils, Renault has a new accessory to transport your nerdrobe to the data center. Meet the Kangoo be bop Z.E. plug-in prototype. While the technology inside (Lithium Ion batteries with a 100-mile range and 30 minute recharge to 80% capacity -- or full charge in 20 minutes using a proposed 400V universal standard plug) is very similar to the vehicles that Renault expects to release on the road in 2011, and its appearance matches that of the Kangoo be bop hitting European roads this spring, it's the design detail that captured our attention. Zoom in on the gallery below and you'll quickly see that the Z.E. prototype (and future concept) is heavily influenced by the look of printed circuit boards, or "printed circuit motifs" as claimed by Renault's press release. Go ahead, firmly embrace your geekiness without guilt. Remember,
you're a rock star.
P.S. Who knew we'd be rocking the
Samsung F480 Tocco so far into the future?
[Via
Autopia]
posted May 8th 2009 6:42AM
Whatever happened to hydrogen?
Bluecold,
hydrogen technology has a lot of problems. Hydrogen is NOT a fuel - it is an anargy storage medium (just like batteries). Production, storage, distribution are all areas that would require significant improvement in order to make it a viable option.
On the other hand - battery technology is viable now (see Tesla Roadster) but batteries are being improved right now: new discoveries that makes charging times 100 times shorter, not to mention development of ultracapacitors.
Last but not the least - batteries I can charge at home / office and escape the dictatorship of oil companies.
Let's see... for hydrogen you need electricity in order to extract the gas from water.
Plus you'll have milion cars emitting tons of steam every day...
So why not use directly electricity without the hydrogen step? (also 'cause water is actually important resource)
Caus electric cars are the next new greenness craziness. I would love to see an actual research paper regarding how efficient these electric cars are as well how green their production is. How is it possible that electricity gets produced elsewhere (in rather inefficient turbines/engines), needs to be transfered by the grid (which is extremely inefficient) then gets stored in rather poluting batteries vs just the ordinary yet lately more efficient combustion engines? Not to mention that these little engines in cars are wayyy more efficient then the engines being used to actually generate electricity. For sure the electric car produces less CO2 but as long as we aren´t capable to produce efficient electricity (read fusion power not those inefficient solar panels/wind mills) the electric source produces massive CO2.
On the other hand hydrogen engines (wtf.. 70% is water on this planet plenty of it is avaible) are rather clean and actually being produced already over here in Europe.
If you want to be green instead of a yuppie in your Prius i´m putting my money on the hydrogen cars.
I would have to agree with JW - It seems that the whole industry gets locked into the most popular idea of the time and ignores all other avenues.
I hope someone continues to work on alternatives to electricity as a fuel source simply because research may prove that electricity is not the ideal fuel / energy source.
However, right now, we can produce electricity by various means, and hopefully we will make those methods more eficient while working on yet more methods. Solar panels, Wind turbines, Wave / flow based turbines, chemical reactions, burnd fossil fuels, etc.
Presently, we have a significant investment in the electrical infrastructure. If we lose petroleum based fuels, we also make the associated infrastructure mostly useless. WHat can be salvaged will be, while we invest in incorporating whatever fuel infrastructure we need. Going any fuel other than Electric may mean significant investment in infrastructure to support that fuel.
I would suggest that we have a significant knowledgebase related to working with electricity. We don't have nearly as much knowledge working with other fuels such as Hydrogen.
The "man" already has an infrastructure to maintain control of the populace if we shift from petroleum to eletricity... the oil company oligarchy would be replaced by the electric company oligarchy. Going to another fuel source could allow for anarchy until things get settled, so in the interest of civil obedience, electricity is a win.
Just my thoughts on the subject...
@JZ,
The turbines used at power stations are far more efficient than car engines. For a start they can run at their most efficient speed constantly unlike a car engine which starts and stops, speeds up and slows down at regular intervals. Electric motors can also be very efficient as they have only 1 moving part where a car engine has many moving parts, all causing friction and requiring power to start everything in motion. Car engines are also incredibly inefficient when in heavy traffic where electric motors will not use any power while stationary and are efficient at getting you moving again.
Yes it would be better if we could produce the energy perfectly cleanly in the first place but power stations (especially nuclear) are far cleaner than all the car engines.
Unless we can come up with new ways of getting hydrogen it is not a great solution as the energy required to produce it is far more than the energy it gives back in power (not to mention the potential danger of carrying rocket fuel in a car). It is much more efficient to just pipe the electricity down the wires to a power outlet. The only stumbling block with electric is the batteries and these are becoming better and better all the time.
As far as i´m aware coal/gas plants which account for the mayority of the energy production have an 80% efficiency though while the net is only 30% efficient suppose (and this I dont know) electric engines are 90% efficient it leaves a mere 22% efficiency in the usage of power. On the other hand a car engine might be only 37% efficient under good situations it still leaves a massive gap between them. Most important is that the efficiency of only 1 step is way easier (and being done, car engines improve allot lately) instead of the 3 step for electric cars.
You might even wonder how efficient electric cars are if even Gaia considers that right now electric cars to be about as efficient as regular cars.
Also that hydrogen engines are dangerous is rather odd, over here at TU Delft I remember seeing tests of capacitors over 4 years ago which could withstand strong blows. (Also if they were dangerous, why would there being produced over 100.000 a year in the EU and quite a bit of public transport already uses them).
@JZ: I'm not sure I believe your efficiency numbers (or rather, the numbers may be correct, but may not be using the right measurement). Don't have time to fully investigate this now but Wikipedia says: 'Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995 [2], and in the UK at 7.4% in 1998.'
Leaving that aside:
a) if you're counting transmission of electricity then you also need to take into account the transport and extraction of oil (and of the coal used for electricity, which is generally found more locally and doesn't need to be taken to thousands of individual fuelling stations). I don't know what that does for the numbers, but I suspect it's better news for electricity.
b) due to limited battery capacity electric cars are usually built to be inherently much more efficient (smaller, lighter)
c) if you get an electric car now (not necessarily a good idea as they are a bit early in development, I'm just saying), it becomes more efficient as time goes on and renewable generation increases as a proportion.
d) talking of which, it's feasible to use local renewable energy (no transmission losses) to provide part of the power to charge your electric car.
I haven't looked at it in detail but I'm certain there are many studies on the topics you asked about, so if you'd really like to read one, ask about it. Every credible source I've read suggests that electric cars are significantly more efficient (in terms of CO2 emission per km) than internal-combustion-engine ones.
@JZ
You need to do some research so you don't sound like an idiot next time. Powerplant turbines are far more efficient than combustion engines --- which have some of the poorest efficiency possible.
but when then solar storm hits earth in 2012, we won't be getting electricity for a long while....
Is'nt it about time car makers go beyond just prototypes of EVs?
Just let us know when it's on the market and stop bothering us with could be models....
If this is where the future is heading I would like to get off here thank you.
I have no intention of driving a fluorescent box around or even seeing scooters ever again.
well scooters work pretty well in some parts of europe. theyre small, easy to park, fuel efficient and more fun to drive than a car. As for the fluorescent part, I agree, but it only looks like that in one of the pictures, right?
Perhaps they style them so horridly so they DONY appeal to the mass market and remain niche models, the oil companies might have a hand in it who knows *puts on conspiracy theory cap*
I mean why couldnt Corolla wrap their system around the Corolla?
Perhaps they style them so horridly so they DONT appeal to the mass market and remain niche models, the oil companies might have a hand in it who knows *puts on conspiracy theory cap*
I mean why couldnt Corolla wrap their system around the Corolla or the Camry, they are sure to take off...
How will Chevrolet's Volt last in a market like this. With the Volt boasting 40 miles on a charge and price tag start at around 40k. Company abroad are constantly putting up marks like this, If they do it for less than 40k which seems probable Chevy is in trouble. Chevrolet has invested a lot into something that may be obsolete by the time it hits the market.
Nick,
Everything Chevy does is always too little too late. They finally released the Camaro to satisfy the retro muscle crowd. Unfortunately, that crowd has already plunked down their cash on the Mustang, Charger, or Challenger. Yup, too little, too late.
When the Volt finally comes out, it will be a far cry from the initial concept, that was actually COOL looking. It will be a Prius wannabee. The good folks at GM Styling seem to be over-trumped by Management a lot. So, rather than go in their own direction and make a sharp looking hybrid, they'll go the market-proven route and design a EV that looks like a bug.
40 miles on a charge? wow, i always thought the volt was supposed to have some revolutionary capabilities. with 40 miles per charge you spend as much time charging it as you are driving it
For the umpteenth time - the volt goes 40 miles using 0 gasoline then the gas engine kicks in and keeps the battery charged for another 200 miles or so.
It is an electric plug-in with a gas engine to extend the range - an extended range plug in.
Got it ? Jeez
:P
Which of the 2 models pictured am I meant to be expecting?
the first one imo because it looks like an actual car
The one that isn't pictured in a surreal (-ly perfect and clean) environment and doesn't look like a postmodern Japanese sushi box on the inside. Yepp, THAT one.
Where's Rocksteady?
Oh heck, I need one of these. Looks like I mam moving to Froglandia.
XBOX 360 on wheels....
What a bizarre looking car! And a bizarre name too, what the heck is a Kangoo Be Bop ZE? Sounds like an Aussie dance move...
I'm seeing two arguments here:
One: Boo, boo, electric cars aren't green because of the plants, the power grids etc. Well, hell yeah, but that can be changed. And here's the thing: you buy a car, you use it for years and perhaps you don't want to sell it for about 8-10 years. If you are driving an electric car, you've done your part of completing the greener world's puzzle. Who is more likely to invest in new energy production/consumption technology? The government or you? Obviously spending a few billion on smartgrids and green power is gonna happen a lot easier than you spending $20k on a new car. So I say EVs FTW here, mostly because they get YOU, the individual/family ready for greenery. BTW, hydrogen is terribly expensive. Honda is loosing a huge bunch of money on leasing the FCX Claritys out to people on a $600/month price.
Argument two: yO dat car loks stooopid!!!1!
Come ON! This is not the only form EVs can be produced in. If you want a masculine ubercar/SUV you might not find it today but in time you will.
Be happy that something cheaper (in the long run) is coming and you are actually doing something good for the planet by buying one of these (this is for my fellow Europeans, obviously Renault isn't taking this to the states).
Don't flame stuff that doesn't cause you bad only because it's not perfect. GM and a bunch of other huge companies may be nasty about a few things but Renault is actually trying to achieve something. IMO they're on the right track.
Peace love etc
Err.. no. EV's will always suck. Mainly because charging the car in a couple of minutes just ain't gonna happen. Ever.
The energy demands for doing that are just impractical. Think about it. If you wan't to charge a 120kWh (Tesla has 56, so 120 isn't unreasonable) battery in 5 minutes, you'd need a 120*12 = 1440kW power supply. So a charging station capable of charging 4 cars simultanously needs a nuclear power plant next to it. Also, assuming 99% charging efficiency (ridiculously high), you'd need to dissipate 14.4kW of heat per car. These are just basic calculations, but they won't change with better battery technology.
On the other hand, just pumping a car full of hydrogen in 5 minutes is entirely practical.
No it fucking isn't.
Yes if fucking is. It's just compressing gas and pumping liquid.
@Bluecold
Dude... PRACTICAL???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYC23ANpEds&feature=related just skip to 1min 3sec
Hydrogen is dangerous. Hydrogen is expensive. Hydrogen isn't good for car companies OR consumers in the long run. When you've got electricity in a simpler form, why invest billions of research money when you have pure electric engines ready to roll?
And about batteries: you don't need more advanced batteries than what you have. You need charging poles, three on every block, sleek and slim; you need battery swapping programs for driving on longer trips. Whenever you stop with your car somewhere, you plug it into a high-voltage charger. For about twenty-two hours on an average working day, your EV is charging peacefully, unlimited, on the street, for a standard monthly fee.
BTW you guys know how hydrogen got to be as big as it is today? When oil companies saw the success of GM's EV1 they started to panic. So to please the green geeks, they came up with something they can sell to you (way overpriced) exactly as they sell gas today. That's hydrogen for you. We don't become a penny poorer, you get your green box, everyone's happy, right? Don't fall for it dudes. The world is evil. It wants to eat you. Mmm.
My friends uncle has an electric car, it's a funny little 3 wheeled thing. It goes about 30 miles on a charge which is more than adequate for his commute to work and back, and he plugs it in when he gets home and it's ready to go again in the morning. It won't meet everyone's needs, but it works for him, and honestly, it would work for 95% of the driving I do as well. He seems really happy with it. If I had the cash burning a hole in my pocket I'd pick one up too.
Lithium-ion batteries are dangerous, they explode just as happily as hydrogen*. Lithium-ion batteries are expensive**.
Also, i wouldn't want the hassle of remembering to put the plug in the car etc. etc. It is much easier to just fill the car up whenever you feel like it. And the "new better batteries are coming in 5 years! really!" nonsense is being repeated for 20 years now. Batteries don't tend to last very long too. 3 years max before performance start to suffer badly. And then only when they are treated right.
But nooo, we should all muck about with batteries because thats what the oil companies don't want us to do. Because they are evil. Great fucking logic.
Anyway, you still have only shouted about how expensive hydrogen is without citing sources, and you've spewed your horribly complicated -compared to hydrogen- utopia around.
Go compare the two without your conspiracy bullshit and then hydrogen comes on top as the easier to use and implement nextgen fuel.
*http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=lithium+battery+explosion&aq=0&oq=lithium+batt
**ever checked for new laptop batteries? Even 'compatible' batteries are very expensive. You'd need a whole array of those to power a car
Cute?..... To each his own.
The interior is refreshing though, but they will never manufacture it the way it looks here. Some idiots will come in and say "No, this is no good for the consumer, they wouldn't want something like this..."
What's with the large stick on the dashboard, it's electric and automatic, you can do with a thumb controlled button/ministick for reverse, no need for a big stick that looks like it controls the gears of a steamengine.
The Volt is a plug-in hybrid, not a plug-in electric. Think of it as
a cross between a Prius and this car.
Ugh, wrong place.
Some dude wrote here that hydrogen is practical. "Entirely practical"...
Dude... PRACTICAL???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYC23ANpEds&feature=related just skip to 1min 3sec
Hydrogen is dangerous. Hydrogen is expensive. Hydrogen isn't good for car companies OR consumers in the long run. When you've got electricity in a simpler form, why invest billions of research money when you have pure electric engines ready to roll?
And about battery tech in EVs: you don't need more advanced batteries than what you have. You need charging poles, three on every block, sleek and slim; you need battery swapping programs for driving on longer trips. Whenever you stop with your car somewhere, you plug it into a high-voltage charger. For about twenty-two hours on an average working day, your EV is charging peacefully, unlimited, on the street, for a standard monthly fee.
BTW you guys know how hydrogen got to be as big as it is today? When oil companies saw the success of GM's EV1 they started to panic. So to please the green geeks, they came up with something they can sell to you (way overpriced) exactly as they sell gas today. That's hydrogen for you. We don't become a penny poorer, you get your green box, everyone's happy, right? Don't fall for it dudes. The world is evil. It wants to eat you. Mmm.