It's massive, costs $500,000, and is just a prototype; but you're looking at a possible solution for swapping out heavy car batteries from future electric vehicles. Kind of important if you're hoping to take your EV on a trip a bit further than the supermarket or city center without having to stop for a lengthy recharge. This switch station, unveiled in Japan by
Better Place, can swap out a spent battery in less time than it takes to refuel the tank in that baby-killer of a car you hold so precious. These battery swap stations are just part of the enormous infrastructure required to support Better Place's subscription approach to electric vehicles -- infrastructure easily estimated to cost $250 million or so for countries like Israel or Denmark on up to the
$1 Billion already pledged by San Francisco Bay Area mayors. Better Place admits that the swap technology is a work in progress but hopes to have 150,000 charging stations and about 100 battery swap stations deployed in Israel by 2011. Check the video after the break.
posted May 13th 2009 8:10AM
"Better Place...hopes to have 150,000 charging stations and about 100 battery swap stations deployed in Israel by 2011."
Admirable, but perhaps a little over-ambitious?
Where is money there is will, where is will there is a way.
It looks to me that Israel is a battery powered vehicle infrastructure testbed for the US. With all that "good will" that US shows Israel, it would be hardly surprising. Even if not a full deployment is executed by 2011 there will be a lot of very valuable know how & feedback obtained from building this type of system.
Finally! An electric enema I can get behind... [or above].
If anyone is willing to take the plunge to switch from oil I'm betting it's Israel.
Hydrogen was a red herring promoted by the oil and auto industries so they could LOOK like they were researching alternative energy. It was chosen specifically because the tech was so vapor it would take decades to develop - decades that those industries could continue to sell oil and internal combustion engines. Plug-ins and specific-use EVs are the only feasible alternative that could actually be deployed in our lifetime.
Or you could just fill your car up with hydrogen in the future. Foolish plan, this.
Yes, I will do that, as Hydrogen drips from the leaves of the trees and gathers in a large tank in my backyard.
It seems to me that electrical vehicles are MUCH more feasible than hydrogen vehicles - at least for the next few decades. We already have a distribution infrastructure for electricity, and battery technology has improved so much in only the past few years. Tesla's Model S, for example, has a 300 mile range and costs $60,000. Of course, this is needs to become cheaper but tech almost always becomes cheap with economies of scale. Hydrogen will require that we start nearly from scratch.
Alex: You do know that you can use electricity to produce hydrogen in your garage, right?
Yodaman: you do realize that electrolysis is really inefficient and even if you could create the hydrogen at 100% efficiency the fuel cell in your vehicle would convert it back to electricity at less than 60% efficiency. BEST CASE.
In all fairness, 60% theoretical (carnot efficiency) is better than the ~40% that the internal combustion engine/diesel has. But I'm all for electric. =p
Hydrogen is not a fuel, its an electricity carrier... and until they find a new way to make it without using natural gas, it's horribly inefficient to make it. And if you already have the electricity, why use it to create hydrogen from water when you could just pump the electricity into a battery? That said, a battery changing station is NOT the way to go.
At the present time --- essentially starting the transition to a "fossil fuel"-less future --- the best solution is a range-extended electric vehicle with a gasoline or diesel generator that is recharged at night at people's homes. Most days they won't even need to use the fuel, and on longer trips they don't have to worry about running out of electricity.
In the future, new battery technology will be used that can be recharged in minutes from "gas stations" that have large current electrical hookups. This technology is being worked on in the lab right now and some feasible form of it should be able to be mass produced in the next 10-20 years...
And waste a lot energy creating the Hydrogen in the first place. The same applies to "bio" fuels grown on fields - in order to turn that stuff into real fuel, you need/lose that much energy that you better off powering a generator with it directly and running off REAL electricity.
If I'm going to spend a lot of money on a battery car...I'd like to keep my brand new battery as oppose to somebody's used batter that don't keep a charge...I mean who wants to swap...I want to keep mine.
I think the whole idea behind this might be, that you buy slightly less expensive cars and effectively only 'rent' the battery.
Why would you want to hold on to your own battery that will hold less and less charge as time goes by, while you can have a semi-brand new one every time you pull in for a pit stop?
This way you'll never have to buy a new battery when additional capacity cells arrive etc. You leave all the heavy lifting to Better Place.
On a related note, does anyone know if the 6-cell battery will protrude from the bottom of the car? Not a winning proposition with all those speedbumps et al.
I don't think you will buy the car with the battery... at least not the battery. It's more like a subscription service probably, which I think is a good idea, because you will always have a somewhat new enough battery and won't have to worry about getting a new battery after a couple of years.
@nxp3,
Try a little research before you post, this is completely different from the automotive model we are used to. You buy the car for between $10k-15k, better place gives you a battery, they can only be charged from better place charging stations, which can be cheaply installed at your home, and you pay for the miles you use.
If the battery pack in your car starts to fail it will be replaced for free unlike other battery powered cars.
It is a subscription plan just like a cell phone, people who use lots of miles per year, taxi's and the like will get a discount on the up front cost of the car.
Jon, we feeling a tad angry today? People are just discussing it and you are bothered that they didn't go out and fully research something before commenting in a blog. Relax man.
The other important point about this type of system (from a David Pogue article a few weeks ago), this idea of having charged batteries serve as almost a commodity that gets swapped in and out, allows rapidly changing battery technology to find its way into your car without you having to pay for a new set of batteries or, worse, a new car. I honestly believe from a business standpoint and as a replacement for petrol, a system like this will have to be in place for electric to succeed.
I think, that future is electric... but I propose to invest more money in more capable batteries to achieve 2000miles per charge. So you can travel full day and in the evening plug your car into hotel parking or in your garage.
For israel electric cars are allso a great way to ger spare energy in case of war.... just drive your car next to your home, plug in and you cas USE the energy stored in those batteries. :)
Rather have that super fast Li Ion charging technology in batteries.
This system places a lot of trust on people not to tamper with their batteries, unless it involves inspecting each battery that comes in.
The batteries are sealed units, they would be a PITA to mess with.
Your comment is kinda like being worried that in a city with a bike sharing program someone would change the gear cluster on one of the bikes.
Didn't know there was such a thing...
Seems to work great in the video, as long as the underside of your car is spotless and dustfree, so it's important to plan those long trips to be over carpet in sunny places, keep that in mind please.
P.S. I'm sure google route planner will have a carpeted roads checkbox soon, and the advantage of carpeted roads is that it'll cut the noise wonderfully1!
Who would clean the carpet then?
@rcram
the carpet would be cleaned by those hired to clean the carpet...creating millions of jobs around the US! im down with carpeted roads...but id go with a beige berber for a nice classic look.
Or it's a trick of skynet for flooding the place with roombas
Without the battery, your vehicle will still be usable - FLINTSTONES style! :D
why not just use a kuka robot under the platform? that'll take up much less space compared to those "battery shuttles" and probably be much more efficient.
Nice concept IF you have a BetterPlace car and battery, if you have some other companies set up, you have to use whatever they can come up with for replacements, so does that mean there will be even MORE changing stations than we have Gas Stations now? I'm pretty sure each manufacturer will come up with their own way of dealing with battery replacements instead of a standard solution
It would be best for everyone if they used a standard system. Unfortunately I can't see that happening. Isn't capitalism great?
Car companies want to sell cars, not batteries. It's in their best interest to standardize on a battery pack, just as they've standardized on the size of the fuel nozzle at the gas pump. The more confident the consumer feels about being able to find a place to swap the battery, the more likely they are to purchase a vehicle.
How many people refuse to buy Sony products because of their proprietary shit? I'll never buy a Sony that requires a Memory Stick.
Mark
They don't care, as long as they can still be the masters of puppets (us driving their batteries).
I like this idea, but i prefer charging in MY OWN (solar powered) plug for free and not becoming dependent of another (battery in stead of oil this time) company again.
Better places counts on different types of batteries from different makes- They think that every station should be able to hold about 12 "standard" types/sizes to accomodate the needs of the auto industry. This is alreday built in to the system. By the way - did you ever count how many types of gas your gas station has?
This is really cool, but the only thing I wonder about is damaged batteries. There needs to a process in place that checks batteries before they are allowed to be replaced. Otherwise this is a great idea (if all car batteries are underneath the car).
Ahh.... The days before SuperCaps.....
or magnetic batteries
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2009/03/18/the-birth-of-the-magnetic-battery/
Very slick. I think Better Place has a really interesting approach to the issues of EV battery cost and recharging time. I live in the SF Bay Area, so some of these stations should be showing up around here. It will be really interesting to see how it goes. I've driven all-electric vehicles (an EV-1 and now a RAV4-EV) for the last 9 years, and they've been great. If this prompts wider adoption and use, I think it would be fantastic.
Wonder how this would go over in Chicago when I drop off my snow, muck, and salt covered battery.
The batteries are sealed units, as they would have to be, exposed under the car. So they'll probably have a system to either wash the underside of the car before the change, or just drop the dirty battery out and clean it later. I won't add much time to the change, and will still probably be less than a standard fill-up. From what I've read, Shai Agassi, the mastermind behind this whole plan, is very forward-thinking; I think all of these issues will be worked out as needed for each market.
No coincidence all the places mentioned are sunny, with only occasional rain, at which time you'll be asked to stay inside I guess.
To wwhat: Sunny places like Denmark???? They have decided to have a nation wide Better Place station system 2011 that is fully deployed by 2012.
Am I the only one who can see the inevitable fail when your average driver tries to line the front wheels up with that narrow track?
I doubt the owner of the vehicle will be allowed to drive the vehicle into the swap area. When 10 minute oil change places first sprung up, the driver would stay behind the wheel. I assume one too many accidents and lawsuits later, an employee generally drives the car into the bay. I really don't give a rat's ass. I'd prefer to throw someone the keys and go buy a soda and hit the restroom while they screw with the car.
I think that's why they typically describe the swap stations in a representation more like a carwash.
The video shows a tech-demo installation built for inspection by Japanese auto engineers. Actual roadside implementation of swap stations will include the lifting arm mounted parallel (not perpendicular, as in the demo) to the vehicle travel direction, and the lifting arm will be locked in step and moving with the car as it travels along the 'carwash' track. As such, the driver should only need to line it up about as close as they would for a carwash... which is not much.
How they handle the inevitable weight shifting of occupants and such - I have no idea, but assume they're working on it.
System is made such, that perfect alignement is not needed. You can even park quite badly. the battery has a computer, that helps it self aligned. You could see it take a misaligned battery (they could not misalign the car on the demo ramp) during one of the demoes (I was there).
I just wonder how long it will be until the oil companies buy this company and moth ball it. I heard a lot of small companies with great EV ideas are getting bought up and scuttled. Of course I hope this isn't true.
I think EVs and these charging ideas are fantastic and need to be co-funded by the Obama admin and put on the fast track.
Scott
Why would the oil companies mothball it? It case you haven't noticed, the oil companies are becoming energy companies. If there's a profit to be made, you can be sure they will be all over it.
While we can all argue about how much oil remains, it's basically accepted as fact that oil production has peeking, and we'll run out at some point. The oil companies may as well get in on the ground floor. If anything, the oil companies have a great head start, as they own a lot of premium real estate, i.e. gas stations at major intersections. I believe you'll begin to see some of these converting into battery swap stations in the next decade or so.
"Why would the oil companies mothball it?" -- Oh, I don't know. Maybe because they did that very thing to the high tech batteries developed for the EV-1? The car had a 160 mile range in the late nineties. Texaco, of all places, bought the battery technology and mothballed it. Last year we had GM engineers talking about the Volt saying, "Oh, you know, battery technology isn't good enough to get the 40 mile range we want." You had 160 miles ten years ago, you dolts. You sold the battery tech to Texaco.
BS. You have to stop listening to the loonies.
The EV1 was a 2 seat car, and there was nothing "advanced" about the batteries. The entire car was basically one big battery. It had a 160 mile range in warm weather locales, i.e. California and Nevada. That's why the car was never brought to the cold weather states. I'd like to see the range hauling a family of 4 w/ luggage through northern Wisconsin in January with the heat cranked.
The Volt is a 4 person sedan, and must be capable of running in all climates w/ a trunk full of luggage. That's why they're shooting for a 40 mile range.
Look, I'd like to see a viable electric vehicle. I believe plug-in hybrids will bridge the gap until something like Better Place's technology gains a foothold. There have been no breakthrough advances in battery technology, no matter what the conspiracy theorists say. Period.
So, that old inventor guy from Who Killed The Electric Car was lying?
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that actually is MY idea of a "cellphoneCAR": http://www.gaetanomarano.it/articles/033cellphoneCAR.html
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Great idea here. However, I can see the battery swap stations becoming extinct with the advance of batteries that allow super-fast charging. I know that day isn't here, maybe not for 15 years, but it will come, and then battery swap stations will be useless. But still, the swap stations will help facilitate the growth of electric cars, which I'm all for.
How fast is superfast? If I'm driving cross country, I don't want to spend more that 5 to 10 minutes at a station. I'd rather drive in, swap a battery, and be on my way.
Sure, there will be charging stations at home, at work, and in public/private parking facilities, but electric vehicles won't survive unless the recharging process can be in-line will filling up a gas tank.
they need to put a safety cover over the hole so future old people dont drive into it... o wait i am going to be one of the future old people... =(
That's all well and good swapping whole batteries out, but what if you only need to partially fill a 1/3 discharged battery to full capacity to make the trip you've planned.
Would you still get charged for a complete battery charge or would they deduct the amount of charge still left in the battery to be replaced from your charge for the replacement battery being installed...and at what price. There could be huge discrepancies between values offered per unit of energy at different locations.
I can't wait to see how all this small print gets resolved. My guess will be over a long time and at Great expense to the average Joe. I'm a cynical ba$tard, I know.
The cost to the consumer is based on miles driven. It makes no difference to Better Place whether you're dropping off a battery at 9% or 90% - you'll be charged for the miles.
maybe people will start stealing batteries instead of catalytic converters now
Noel: I have no arguments with what you've said. I was merely responding to alex's point that "We already have a distribution infrastructure for electricity." We also have a distribution system for water, and when you put the two together, you get hydrogen. It seems silly to dismiss hydrogen because there is "no distribution system" when there really is. That's the only point I was trying to make.
Personally, I'd love a hydrogen powered car. I'd slap enough solar panels on the roof of my house to produce all the hydrogen I needed, fill up at home, and never pay for fuel again (other than the admittedly large initial cost of the solar panels).
Crap. Meant to reply to another thread.
What I really want to hear:
a. How is SF/SJ/OK really gonna pay for their "utopia"? You don't rebuilt a "house" by charging entrance fees. AND rebuilding a "house" isn't cheap. $1 Billion is a lot that could be used to NOT lay off teachers for instance (note, those that are out of it, CA has a budget crisis...).
b. Carbon footprint will likely be EQUAL to making gas cars gets 40+miles/gal. I said GAS cars--and it's PROVEN. Make them smaller, lighter, slower--hmmm, just like all electric/hybrid cars today! Until electric has 15 yr reliability and batteries provide "enough" radial daily mileage (i.e. 350-400miles), it can't beat chemical fuels.
c. BetterPlace: Can your switching station:
1. running reliably after 1000 battery changes a day, 365? i.e., continuously like a Disneyland ride? Even if it's faster than a pump fill up, a gas station sees what, hundreds of fill ups per day and can stay in operation for years.
2. have good security for all those expensive batteries in storage? I see some disappearing.
3. handle refilling voluming of lets say Memorial Day (or Earth Day in SF)?
4. operate with the efficiency of 1 person independently? (if they're networked, a NOC/datacenter is involved).
5. Is it easy to repair a 'broken' station?
This smells like web 3.0. If my electric car can get 300miles/charge, I only need this type of infrastructure when I travel long distances, which then I should use public transportation (air/train/gas auto) which is more efficient than the proposed infrastructure. AND what I really need in the end is not charging stations, BUT a smart energy grid and inductive technology in my driveway and workplace.
I used to think battery switching stations make sense, but with 200mile/charge Telsas, the smart grid makes more sense instead now. And really, switching stations in SF is typical lazy liberal thinking. Yes, liberals CAN want to be lazy.
b. Carbon footprint will likely be EQUAL to making gas cars gets 40+miles/gal.
A dubious claim at best. This tech is here today. But regardless: do you want to continue to send billions of dollars each month to countries that are not our friends? There are so many more reasons not to use gasoline cars. Reducing oil dependency is the probably best.
c. BetterPlace: Can your switching station:
1. running reliably after 1000 battery changes a day, 365? i.e., continuously like a Disneyland ride? Even if it's faster than a pump fill up, a gas station sees what, hundreds of fill ups per day and can stay in operation for years.
Yes. The mechanics are extremely simple (essentially lift/lower/move). Much more than a Disney ride I would say.
2. have good security for all those expensive batteries in storage? I see some disappearing.
No way. Sliding door only opens to the underground vault when EV is above station. Also batteries are quite heavy. Most important - no one would have any interest in stealing them (due to Better Place business model).
3. handle refilling voluming of lets say Memorial Day (or Earth Day in SF)?
Easily. There are enough batteries (12) to make sure, that the last one in is fully charged, before the others are spent. It could - in theory - service an unending number of cars.
4. operate with the efficiency of 1 person independently? (if they're networked, a NOC/datacenter is involved).
No operator required. Its fully automatic. You do nothing except park your car. wait for 40 sec. and drive off.
5. Is it easy to repair a 'broken' station?
Things break. Machines inside the station is a very simple lift/lower/move system. car mechanic is certainly more challanged. And at a gas station you have to deal poisionous, highly flamable liquids, when something goes wrong. remeber there would mostly be more than one of these at each station.
This is a very well thought out concept. Cheap shots will not scratch the surface. There are of course problems and questions that I put to Shai Agasi at the presentation, but since this tech deserves a boost I will leave that to better informed critics to come up with themselves. LOL!
this company's gonna be screwed when the transporter comes out
I was at presentation in Yokohama. This tech works - and it works well. Better Place has a winning concept that is well thought out and very flexible. Problem is that for the car industry the profit magin of an electrical car is much smaller than for a gasolin car. So they will do much to avoid having electrical as the new propulsion... Shai Agasi was asked about this by a sharp journalist (they do exist!). He clearly was ready for this question about getting the car manufactures to accept producing EVs. His answer: The Chinese are encouraging the intro of electrical cars in China with a 9.000 USD subsidy. China want an electircal car industry - and will "junp the gasoline age. If you are a car maker - do you want to wait while the Chinese move ahead? LOL! Time will tell if we will all be driving Chinese cars ten years from now. Why do Denmark & Isreal have nation wide charge systems by 2011? No carindustries in those two countries! Last tidbit, the machine is faster than the video shows. A "real" change only takes 40 sec.