Confirmed: Palm Pre's iTunes support is very, very hacky
By Chris Ziegler 
posted Jun 4th 2009 4:19PM
posted Jun 4th 2009 4:19PM
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If Apple is smart and equally devious, they might be better off leaving the opening there and then suing Palm and trying to get a court to prevent Palm from being able to sell the pre altogether.
Why it has worked for several Creative devices for a long time? (hey where's Creative?)
So Apple leave the hole, and then sues Palm for using the hole to sync with iTunes, all just to then abuse the legal system to prevent a legitimate product off the market to spare them from competition?
If that's not corporate abuse of the legal system...
Apple: We would like to sue palm for enabling people to buy songs from our store.
Judge: Are they making any money from this?
Apple: No, we do.
Judge: Why are you moaning? Couldn't you stop it if you really wanted to?
Apple: Well yes.
Judge: GTFO and do it then, quit your whining.
Then what happens when Palm points out all the patents they own that Apple stomps all over ?
Geez anything for a free open market why are you iDiots so willing to give all your cash to Apple ?
@Jakob
That might have something to do with Creative and Apple's link, with Apple using Creative's click wheel patent...
Suing doesn't solve anything. Both Apple and Palm use each others patents. If Apple doesn't like it, just stop it on their end. I could care less whether or not the Pre can synch with itunes. Just give me the damn Pre already!!!
Major4Play,
Why don't you wait until something actually happens before spouting off? Oh yeah, because you're just as mindless a drone as the straw man Apple fanboys you invent in your mind.
we all know how much palm pre wants to be an iphone but you would think pre would just copy itunes and make their own store like all the other phone companies instead of playing ol' hacker hat pre/ipod
This is a really interesting situation..
To me having the pre sync with my itunes is a killer feature.
its either the new iphone or pre for me..
Why was I down-ranked for this? I was just playing devil's advocate. Down-rank if someone says something stupid or untrue, but don't down-rank just because you don't like what they have to say. Yeesh.
Actually that is why you down rank.
Here is the issue,
The Pre is identifying itself as an iPod. If the Pre is marginally successful Apple will probably ignore it, but since a device is identifying itself as an iPod, Apple probably could sue, and they would likely win, because I'm sure the court would frown on a rival companies device pretending to be Apple's device for the purpose of working with Apple's software.
On the other hand Palm has just handed Apple a golden marketing opportunity - If the Pre is successful Apple can claim that iTunes support is part of the reason why, and gee, shouldn't you just buy an iPhone because it's designed to work with iTunes, etc, etc. Either way this is far more favorable for Apple than Palm.
Personally I think Palm is smoking crack to promote this feature. Apple can plug that particular hole if they choose to, leaving Pre users unable to access their iTunes files.
Note that I'm not saying that I think Apple should, or should not do anything.
What's the issue here?
Nokia phones can sync with iTunes and have been able to for years so why would Apple give a shit if the Pre can?
They should leave the thing open until perhaps v3 version of the pre when it has become more widely used then extort or sue both palm and its consumers for violating apple's iTunes Terms of Use.
It could also possibly mean that iTunes hasn't been updated with the Palm Pre info yet, which could come out with a new release of iTunes. Palm Pre hasn't been officially released yet anyway. It identifies it as iPod because it's an unknown but syncable device. Then they can do all their icons and filenames whatever, like when the new Shuffle came out it needed a new iTunes right?
@Haha: Unless Apple started to officially support the Pre, there will be no Pre markings anywhere in iTunes. The icons, names, etc. are all built into iTunes and not into the player. So without Apple supporting the Pre, it will always show up as an iPod.
If I were apple I'd release an update that has the ability to cripple the pre's iTunes syncing, but doesn't on the get-go. Then, a month or two after release they flip the death switch and without a downloaded update iTunes stops working with the pre completely.
That, or just make the pre syncing with iTunes completely wonky. Deleting songs randomly, changing the dates and times of appointments, or loading on five copies of each song instead of one.
Both of those don't look like Apple's fault because they can say that the pre isn't supported by iTunes, and any compatibility between the two is coincidence. Palm ends up looking like they make buggy software and a shitty phone. That, or Apple makes money off of the iTunes store. Its a win-win for Apple.
I can't believe Palm would give that much power to a competitor.
(Don't get me wrong I'm in no way an Apple fanboy, if anything I'm a Microsoft one. I just love seeing people get screwed over.)
You get downranked because some of the people here are dicks and the site allows this. Upranking and downranking is some childish, elementary school crap. I'm surprised Engadget didn't make it so that if you got downranked ten times, your comment becomes unreadable. I've never downranked anyone just because I don't agree with what they say. Nobody is being forced to read a comment. Comments on this site are taken way too seriously.
@Scott R:
If you read Sam's comment you can tell it's a stupid idea, and Apple following what you said would make them stupid, which isn't "smart and equally devious".
So your comment is stupid AND untrue.
Thus the low rank.
Looks like this might swing either way. Apple might look at is as a good cash crop or it could be viewed as a nuisance. I guess it really depends on the majority?
Pre users dont update iTunes!
Or just ditch it entirely.
.
.
.
.
Cus' it's crap.
Who the hell uses BloatTunes anyway?
@ m3tric:
Me, so that's one...
bullshit thewc you have never used it.
unless you are too of an idot to type www.thepiratebay.org then enter
"unless you are too of an idot"
ಠ_ಠ
Hmm, sneaky sneaky. I wonder if you'll be able to jailbreak the Palm pre as well...
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Set up your WiFi network connection with your own DNS server, then when the Pre WiFis into "Palm" it goes into YOUR server instead.
ljit: And...? I'm guessing you've never heard of digital signatures.
iTunes should open itself up more to other devices
I agree. iTunes is probably a very good revenue stream for apple and they ought to milk it. There are probably people who want a pre, don't want an iphone, and still want to be able to buy their music on iTunes. By letting more devices work with iTunes apple can increase this revenue stream. They could even liscense the process. That way, they could exclude other pure MP3 players, that might undercut the ipod brand, but let in more phones, which wouldn't. (Lets face it, if you want an iphone you're going to buy one, if you don't you won't.) I think keeping it open and possibly making it less hacky would be smart business for apple.
It's why I stopped using iTunes. I used to use iTunes when I had an iPod. I bought a Nokia N95, got rid of my iPod, and used my N95 as my multimedia player. Thing is, iTunes didn't recognize it. I just got Winamp instead which synced perfectly with it. I don't understand why Apple is the only company that limits itself when it comes to Media Players.
iTunes itself doesn't make very much money for Apple itself. Apple's purpose of having iTunes is selling iPods and iPhones. It would be a disaster for them if everyone downloaded iTunes music on Blackberries and Zunes rather than buying iPods and iPhones.
Funny, for me one of the big wins for Pre is that it _isn't_ chained to iTunes.
Google:
"hate iTunes" 17,500,000 hits
"iTunes sucks" 3,530,000 hits
With all of the alternatives out there, why does anyone put up with iTunes?
Google
"hate scobb00" 2 hits
"scobb00 sucks" 2 hits
... because no one cares about you.
And everyone knows that one hit on google is equal to.. one BILLION people.
@gib
Sorry hun. Did I hurt your feelings? It's not about me - it's about iTunes.
Do you think I made up those numbers? Do it yourself. I know you can...
Man, what happened to the good ol' days where you could be mean on the Internet without repercussions? I wasn't actually trying to make you cry of anything. I was demonstrating (like matthewsime says) that googling something =/= absolute Truth.
Personally, I say let the Pre use iTunes. Who cares? Otherwise you will just stoke the flames of all the iHaters in the world.
@ ALBGunner04
Some of us wish there was a Mac version of Winamp :(
why would any windows user use that piece of sh1t software which is iTunes unless you absolutely HAVE TO? dont get it
It would be nice for it to work with some phones. But let's be realistic, one of the reasons why the iPod has 70+% market share is because it's so easy to use. Allowing that functionality to be used by competitors means a loss of unit sales. Apple makes a lot of profit on the hardware, not from selling songs on iTunes. When the build cost of the new Shuffle is $20-something and they're selling it for $80 that shows you where they get most of their profit.
no surprising, considering palm basically hired all of apples original ipod staff
Just get an iphone and you won't have to worry about it NOT working on itunes
I'm busy sending MMS messages with my pre, thanks.
Not sure if that's sarcasm or a double negative that went wrong....
Careless Hearts in iTunes? Story to see if Apple's heart is careless or not... Coincidence or not??
@Amun sorry you must have missed the call about 3.0 while you were browsing the web. I'd blame Sprint for not being able to handle both at the same time.
Ok then, rob. I'll be busy running more than one app at a time. And when I get an instant message, I won't need to go look at the app icon to notice. I'll be notified.
There are too many Pre>iPhone features for you to want to play this game.
I've had a internet capable phone for 2 years now, and not ONCE have i been talking on the phone, and wished i could look something else up. Yeah my phone wasnt capable of it, but i'm usually multitasking while on the phone anyhow (driving - (yes bluetooth), watching TV, on my computer, etc.) Not exactly a deal-breaker for me, and it wont be for 90% of the population
It's like the 'Del' key in the PC vs Mac debate - some ppl use it and want it, but the OVERWHELMING majority dont even know what the Delete key is used for on a PC, and so it's a moot point.
Phenoum - really? i always go online or check email while im on the phone. just yesterday my girlfriend sent me somes pics of painting she did and while i was on the phone i was able to look at the pics she sent while i was on the phone and talk about it. another example. a friend asked me an address or phone number of a business i recommended and i was able to google maps and get it for them without hanging up the phone.
@Jonathan: I am a BB user, I can already multitask just fine thanks.
People really need to stop throwing the stupid around.
Let me dispel this myth. Yes, data and phone calls can't work at the same time on Sprint phones. However, it does not mean that if you are browsing the web, you miss a call. The call simply interrupts your web. If you then try to access the web, it will not let you during a call.
Sheesh.
It is probably in Apple's best interests to leave this alone.
It reaffirms iTunes position as a premier application for managing media libraries. And sales of tracks is sales. If they are played on an iPod or a Pre it is sales.
Lastly, I think allowing other vendors to tie into iTunes could help them fight off antitrust charges that are likely on the way.
Honestly, if they want to open a can of worms by blocking access it is their right as it is their program, but it might be more trouble than it's worth.
Apple don't make shit from iTunes they make it all from selling iPods, iTunes should be opened up to other players but if that day comes I'm Apple will just shut it down or spin it off into a seperate company.
I agree. The biggest complaint I've heard from people about iTunes is they can't sync their creative or whatever mp3 player w/ it. I'm thinking Apple will leave this alone. All they're really doing is punishing those who chose a Pre over iPhone. I love Apple, but have no plans to ever purchase an iPhone. Don't be a douche Apple.
Chris,
Earlier on this topic someone said Creative players have been able to sync with iTunes in the same way for some time. Not sure if it's true or not, but are you sure it's not? Or just speculating?
iTunes exists as a method of selling hardware. Apple would be crazy to allow a significant competitor (the Pre) to continue to use iTunes (without some kind of licensing/royalties or somesuch). I'd be very surprised if Apple did not shut this down or did not get some concession from Palm.
@Major4Play:
According to this article - http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2008/03/apple-apparentl/ - (2008, based on 2007 revenues) Apple did about 1.9 billion in revenue from iTunes that year, with over half a billion profit. And I am sure the numbers are up since then since they introduced videos etc.
I don't think that is anything to sneeze at. I imagine if they were to open iTunes up to other devices not only would they see more sales, but profit would scale upward as well.
Yes the Creative Zen worked with itunes
It's a win-win for Palm.
They can encourage folks that want to use iTunes that they don't have to mess about with thier libraries to feed thier phone, and even if Apple shut them out some way down the line they can point straight back at them and accuse them of being cheerless kill joys.
Still not that keen on one though, but it'll be ages till it reaches the UK in any case..
Why do they have to let Palm in? Has anyone answered the ? yet? how are they KILLJOYS! for blocking someone out of something they spent TIME and MONEY for. That's like me using your car without asking, and bring it back on E when I'm done. If Palm is so great they wouldn't be where they are today...BROKE and unable to think them self out of a box until they hire someone from APPLE to save them. I'll be the 1st to say i hate how APPLE deals with sum things, but have no problem with them wanting other company's to think up something on there own for a change!!
Palm's copied enough from the Apple as is. They can build their own music store.
Oh will you just can it.
Do some of you really think you are actually making Apple look good with this foolishness?
Right, so you're saying instead of piggy backing on a very successful music player, they should create a music player and library that will in fact fail? Brilliant.
Boo on apple if they shut this down..... I'm still an iPod fan and not getting a PRE but c'mon..... lossen up right???
Boo on Apple because Palm hacked the Pre to make it appear as an iPod to iTunes? How exactly is that Apple's fault? And what exactly are you booing, since Apple hasn't taken any action about this at all?
Which os probably why he used the magical word "if"....
And that magical word I just misspelled was "is" boys and girls
@shado your mistake is forgiven and understandable
@Zak - 2 words.. Reading Comprehension
Idlemind: He is an Applefanboy. He has a live feed from Master Jobs brain for all of his thought
And Apple uses Samba on their products, Samba identify itself as a Windows NT server, so do you think MS should sue Apple for "hacking"?
No, you guys are totally right. By using the word "if", what he said wasn't stupid AT ALL. You guys realize you're defending somebody for being disappointed by something Apple hasn't done, right?
As far as Samba - are you stupid? Please read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samba_(software)
The first 5 words are: "Samba is a free software". Note the word FREE. Microsoft could try to sue Apple for using free software, but I doubt they'd get very far.
And exactly what does it being free have to do with ANYTHING? The point is that Apple's software masquerades as a Microsoft product for the sake of interoperability, which is *exactly* the same principle as the Pre pretending it's an iPod. You only complain about the latter because you think Apple can do no wrong.
You really don't know anything about how samba works, do you? Samba was created specifically for the interaction with Microsoft file and print services. It's not Apple's software, Apple had nothing to do with creating it. Apple does implement it though, which is, as I said, specifically what it was designed for. Nothing is masquerading as anything. The closest analogy would be an open source translator, which is entirely above board.
So you're comparing software that is doing exactly what it was designed to do to a Pre fooling iTunes into thinking it's an iPod specifically by broadcasting the ID of a different device. That's not even close to being the same thing as using samba. I mean Apple has grounds to sue Palm just for the fact that the Pre identifies itself as an iPod, which is trademarked by Apple. That's very clear trademark violation, and Apple would easily win.
Furthermore, there is a right way to interface with iTunes. That's how other MP3 players do it, they access the xml file and sync against it. But the Pre isn't doing that, it's pretending to be an iPod instead.
Remind me again why Apple fans hate Microsoft, but love Apple? Apple is 100 times more restrictive on their IP than Microsoft. Guarantee the Pre no longer works with iTunes within a week.
Well my iTunes updated an hour ago...
Probably because Microsoft has repeatedly and illegally used their power to force their vision of computing, the internet, and everything else, on the general public? They've forced their bastardized versions of previously good technology on the world more times than I can count.
Meanwhile, Apple is still just a niche player who can't force much of anything on anyone.
Microsoft hasn't been as bad lately since they've lost so many lawsuits, but if you're not aware of their tactics you haven't been following the industry very long.
@Unix: You're right, but given the chance, don't you think most companies would pull that sort of shenanigans?
Walrus,
Yeah, probably. Seems more worthwhile to stress about it when it's a major player. I have no concerns about ever being able to walk away from Apple at any point in time -- except for maybe $10 in purchased iTunes music.
I've been avoiding Microsoft software like the plague for 14 years, and I STILL find myself locked in occasionally (Office file formats constantly breaking compatibility, Sharepoint's bass-ackwards extensions requiring IE, etc etc).
I like the pre but this is pretty bootleg.
i, for one, am loving this! im ecstatic that companies are finally being badass and saying "HEY! I DONT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT U, AND IM GONNA SHOW IT" and hack each other. enough with this corporate bullcrap. GET ON WITH IT!!!
first :-)
http://www.webosarena.com/2009/06/01/first-known-line-sitter-for-pre/
“I’ve been so disappointed with Sprint since my parents got me a plan three years ago. "
The picture is of a grown "man" who is "disappointed" at the plan his parents got him?
I'm at a loss. I seriously want the sargent from Full Metal Jacket to just rip this loser a new one.
We are seriously fracked if this is what our future is all about.
Reminds me of that pitiful douche 17 year old in WA whose parents bought him an M3.. and then he arranged to have it 'stolen' so he could use the insurance money towards a Bentley.
This IS going to be blocked by Apple....remember Apple is in the business of selling HARDWARE....they would not want other HARDWARE playing nice with their software since it would bite into their profits. Let them deal with the anti-trust claims later....see how Jobs deal with it.
This IS a post from someone who knows NOTHING about what's ACTUALLY going to happen.
go eat your granny-smith in the corner now why don't you
I can just see Toto running up and pulling the curtain back and the Palm Pre saying "Ignore the phone behind the curtain, I'm an Ipod!!!!"
You know, if this were The Wizard of Oz....
Thank goodness you clarified that... I thought you were talking about the band.
"a tip of the ol' hacker hat to [a bunch of former iPod engineers] for its wild ways"
That's more like it.
iTunes is DRM free.. so why block?
also its good because if they did a nokia and brought in media sync software.... itunes would lose sales?
I could care less whether or not iTunes syncs with the Pre. Not a deal breaker at all. I need a business tool with a little fun, not vice-versa. I have an mp3 player, thanks anyway. I'll take my Pre now. :)
i agree it doesn't seem like a dealbreaker, but why would Palm go out of it's way to showcase it like it did? Seems childish when they know it's merely a hack.
As someone who does not use iTunes (mainly because I use Linux, but also because of how it runs on Windows for when I do run XP), it just occurred to me: Does the Pre work on standard Linux distros?
I guess we won't be able to install apps from the App Store on it either...
Palm's copied enough from the Apple as is. They can build their own music store.
that's true
If the Pre is the only device that does this, maybe it's not that big of a deal. But Apple doesn't block this, it's not hard to imagine other device makers doing the same thing.
I suspected so. I've spent years attempting to sync my Nokia S60 in an effective way. i've tried everything from iTunes Agent to Salling Media Sync and nothing is as smooth or as sexy as having your device show up in iTunes like an iPod. I am pleased that Palm have used their prowess for something cheeky like this but hope that some clever people use the code in this to make any USB device show up in iTunes like this.
How is this "very, very hacky"?
sounds like you just plug it in and go. Way to sensationalize, chris.
The Pre has to identify itself as an iPod for this to work. That doesn't qualify as "hacky" to you? Did you even read the article?