Iwata says Nintendo tried and rejected camera-based motion control
By Donald Melanson 
posted June 10th 2009 2:43PM
posted June 10th 2009 2:43PM
It wasn't all that hard to see a bit of a brouhaha erupting now that all three console makers are more or less firmly committed to motion-control technology, but it's still always notable when one of the big three throws a shot across the bow, and Nintendo CEO Satoru Iwata did just that in a recent interview with the Financial Times. According to Iwata, Nintendo actually tried out camera-based motion control technology similar to what both MIcrosoft and Sony have now adopted, but found that it got better results with the accelerometer-based tech that ultimately wound up in the Wii remote. Iwata did also say, however, that "until they say when they're releasing it, how much it costs and what software it comes with, we won't know whether that is the route we should have taken," although he added that he thought "they couldn't choose to release exactly the same thing" that Nintendo did.[Via Joystiq]
Isn't there an IR camera in the Wiimote?
thats for the pointing technology, like a mouse
it's different to the body recognition motion control
Honestly, that's one part of the Wii that I think is often under appreciated. The simple fact that you can point at the screen to navigate menus or play FPS is fantastic!
I think what he means is that they rejected regular visible spectrum cameras. It makes sense, because as anyone who has dabbled in image processing can tell you, it's very difficult to get it to work accurately. With the infrared camera, there's a lot less work that they have to do, and in fact the processing technology can fit inside the Wii remote. Obviously, this was a major concern for the Wii as it had very limited processing power compared to the Xbox 360 and PS3, so they needed to use technology that wouldn't require a beefy CPU to run, which I think Natal and the PS3 motion controller will require. People are misinterpreting Iwata's comments as dismissing camera based motion tracking, but in reality what he's saying is that it didn't work for them, but that doesn't mean that it won't work for MS or Sony.
The interesting thing to note is that of course, as you end up having to dedicate processing power to the motion control, that's less CPU time that the actual game code can have. I think ultimately this will prevent the motion control from being used in any titles with very good graphics, which is why the in-controller processing/accelerometer approach is easier to handle. Of course, this is all relative, as obviously even while running motion tracking, the PS3 and 360 can output much better visuals than the Wii, but it's still a tradeoff that developers will be making. Judging from the current target audience of the 360 and PS3, I'm not sure whether that's a tradeoff that the studios would be willing to make, but probably a few that want to try to expand their market will go for it, and we'll see what happens there.
I find it really odd that Microsoft and Sony are doing this now though, since it's halfway through their consoles' lifespans and it's going to require a new peripheral, whereas at least with the Wii remote it comes with the Wii. The installed base for these new peripherals is also going to limit the number of games developed for them. It's a chicken-egg situation; gamers won't buy them until there are a number of games for them, but developers won't want to risk the huge costs for a game that uses the new tech without an installed base to sell it to. I really think they should have waited until their next consoles to try something like this, but at least maybe they will bundle them with future SKUs to increase the installed base. Of course, it's problematic that there is no release date for either, but they have to be waiting for some actual games to pan out before they release the peripherals. Regardless, these peripherals are definitely going to make the console scene more interesting, but I can't help but feel that it's really too little too late for MS and Sony to introduce motion control to combat the Wii. I mean, technically the PS3 has had motion control in the Sixaxis but who uses it? The appeal of the Wii isn't just motion control, and I don't think MS and Sony have been able to fully understand that.
I like how Iwata just admitted that they started with eyetoy to get the wiimote. Proving Sony started the motion sensing craze
I like how they lied though, any tech they tried was closer to eyetoy reading difference in pixels as motion in a grid rather than natals full body tracking, since wii doesnt have the processing power to do anything more than eyetoy
Well..given that it takes years and years of R&D to get right, I would say No, Sony did not start motion control. If the Wii is a gimmick the eye toy is a massively insane crappy gimmick. How many games use it and what is it mainly for, for putting video in games. Every Wii game utilizes some sort of motion control, not true for Sony.
And Iwata is right, if developers would just recognize that Wii is the perfect combination of motion. It's perfect for FPS. Natal and the ps3 glowing dildo all require wayyyyy too much movement. With Wii you can sit there and play a FPS...how are you going to do that with Natal and ps3, by jumping all around. It's required to have that much movement to make a camera based system where as with the Wii all the control can be done with the controller. And though it sucks that it's an add-on coming 3 yrs later, but with Wii motion plus 1:1, Natal and ps3 dildo will never catch on.
I like the interactive of Natal with the boy, but as far as motion control, Natal and ps3 dildo are not very well thought through and too late.
Extinction:
You do realize that the eyetoy wasn't the first camera based motion control system, let alone the first for gaming? Also, when the eyetoy was out, there was no craze. There was a warming, it had a small following.
Whatever way you want to spread it, Nintendo started the CRAZE. They packaged and marketed it right and in the end, that's what matters. The company that makes it marketable gets the credit because everyone has ideas. Few make those ideas work. And for the record, Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft all share such accomplishments.
.
It's like saying that Sony and Microsoft are riding on Nintendo's tails for creating a gaming craze (NES, SNES) or Nintendo riding Atari's, or Nintendo riding Sony's since the PS2 was the start of real mainstream.
It's stupid.
Downfall of Nintendo?
Downfall? Nintendo has been on top of the console war's since day one and I tried the Motion Plus and am a huge believer in it. True 1:1 control that means FPS shooter like Conduit could play better than a mouse and keyboard if the game was made for PC.
Seriously Techie, that is the stupidest comment of the day.
Nintendo owns the console market.....50 Million Wii's sold...Microsoft and Sony, combined, aren't even there yet.
And then they own handhelds as well. DS and now DSi are doing stellar.
You must live in Bizarro world.
Downfall???
HELLO?!
Sega does what NintenDONT!
Oh wait where is sega now?
@xcrunk
Actually 360 and and PS3 combined numbers are right around 52 million at this point.
As for owning the console space, that's relative. By this point in the last generation the PS2 had moved more than 60 million units, while the xbox and game cube had less than 30 million combined.
So by that measure the PS3 is obviously the failure of the group. The Wii however, despite starting $50 less and being the must have CE product for every retirement home on earth, is still lagging behind the PS2 in both units and market share per year.
Yeah because all the attention is now focused on the ps2..I mean there was so much announced for it at E3. How about you compare consoles of this generation? That's what people care about.
Sure we'll compare consoles of this generation. The XBox360 and the PS3. Sorry the Wii is little more than a smaller GameCube with some gimicky dongles attached.
It's completely relevant. Also note that the Nintendo crushed the Sega Master System, these are all very important when discussing the relative merits of the Wii and the PS3.
@jon
I don't knwo what kind of medication you use, but sounds like is distort real life really nice.
So you are saying that Microsoft and Sony together are beating Nintendo? When was this partnership announced???
And then you are talking about the PS2?
I'm just glad you didn't mention that Kotaku has it's head inside Microsoft rear end, so that means it must be a good place.
You almost sound like you had some Nintendo stock and sold it before the Wii's sucess...
cute profile pic
This is too funny...
Seriously, 360/PS3 fanboys can say all they want about the Wii, it will still not affect on how the Wii outsells their favorite consoles.
@shawnis
That's what myopic fanboys care about, you can bet the people making all three consoles are looking at this generation, and last generation, and guess what, they're thinking about the next generation.
In fact, I promise you, at Nintendo there's someone who's job it is to figure out why the Wii isn't outselling the PS2 year over year.
But, you go ahead and keep that narrow focus, we wouldn't want you to get overwhelmed.
@ridgecity
Ability to follow the thread of a conversation fail.
xcrunk said that the Wii had outsold the PS3 and 360 combined, I was pointing out that it hadn't.
You mean the same PS2 that has out sold both the 360 and PS3 at some point in the last year, yeah I mentioned it.
Arguments are easy when you only focus on one point, try looking at the big picture. Go ahead, give it a try.
Iwata is right. His motion controller works right now. Sony's and Microsoft is far from releasing there's. Might be to late for them. Also the Motion Plus and Sony's controller showed that there both 1:1 control. Natal show's lag. As a X-box and Wii user I think there is no reason for Project Natal.
Obviously being able to play some games with no controller whatsoever (except your own body) is very good and very saleable.
Natal not just show lag but :
a) Currently uses a undefined hardware, most likely a expensive one (and not really a single 3d camera).
b) Required a unspecified machine, you can bet that xbox360 is not enough to carry such task.
c) The price is unclear, nobody will buy a over $5000 Natal.
IMHO apparently Natal will not be available this xmas or the next one, time enough to drop the current xbox360 and launch a new version.
Could you point us to the article which says Natal is showing lag?
I remember reading a few reviews but didn't see that particular point being addressed;
Thanks!
@megallanes
you mean a over 9000 Natal?
:P
A couple of cameras won't cost that much and a lot of computer vision techniques can be performed on low power machines in real time so I don't see why Natal has to be expensive.
i evaluated to buy a cheap motion capture system : $15k (and not in realtime), including a ugly tron-like suite.
But Johnny Lee is working on it, so it must turn out okay
@Magallanes: Yep, keep calling something they already did and have demonstrated impossible. Maybe if you keep saying it enough, some day it'll come true.
a) Currently uses a undefined hardware, most likely a expensive one (and not really a single 3d camera).
-There are 2 cameras. One 3D camera which can track depth, and an infrared for dark rooms
b) Required a unspecified machine, you can bet that xbox360 is not enough to carry such task.
-Natal have its own processor.
c) The price is unclear, nobody will buy a over $5000 Natal.
-Since the project have no launch date, it's obvious that there is no price yet.
It did look like there was a bit of lag in the videos I watched. It seemed roughly comparable to the lag incurred using Wii MotionPlus.
Does this mean MS tried and succeeded?
It means MS took Ninty's stale leftovers and made do.
Did they succeed? I have yet to see a real demo. Maybe that will come tonight? The other big question is are these demos actually being run on a 360? I don't think anyone has seen proof of that, even Engadget. Even if it can run Natal, is the 360 powerful enough to run Natal and provide anything more then a simplistic tech-demo-like game? Maybe it is, but nobody but Microsoft knows right now.
Also in the Engadget video of their demo you may have noticed that the room they were running the demo on in was completely white, and by that I'm not referring to the people in it. Even the air conditioner was painted completely white. The Eye Toy had problems distinguishing people from a real world background, and maybe Natal has the same issue, thus the solid white room. If so, that's a deal breaker.
Too late? No. Of everyone that I know that owns a Wii, NONE of them have touched them in probably 6 months to a year.
Wii's are a novelty device, they cashed in on the hype (good for them) with crappy games and even worse graphics. Everyone I know plays either 360 or PS3 pretty consistently... As soon as those two release motion capture (if thats what you're into) people will buy it up.
Well somebody is playing Wii. They sold a ton of Punch-Out games and sold over 600,000 titles of EA Active. Remember Wii is the only console geared to all types of gamers and non gamers. It still makes more money than Sony and X-Box 360. I'm more surprised that there is anyone who has PS3 I live in the Tri-State area and know only 1 person. Graphics mean nothing anymore it all looks the same it's all about game play don't believe me than ask Nintendo about it. Gimmick or not they still do well and that's a fact you can't ignore. I still love my 360 though. LOL!
wtf are you talking about Theutus?
I know 1 person who owns a PS3 and uses it solely for bluray. I know a bunch of people with xbox's, but they only play it by themselves. Whenever anyone has any friends over drinking beers and listening to music, it is always the wii that is providing the gaming entertainment; and that happens almost every other night somewhere among my friends.
8 people can have a blast playing 1 wii, no other console can say that. and new players are encouraged to start due to the very low learning curve, even my 79 year old grandpa understands how to play the wii. no other console can say that either. how much money has microsoft or sony made from the 35+ age group (that didn't just buy it for their kid)?
@onemad See your missing his point, ANYONE can play the wii, just very very few people actually do play them after a couple months. Sure a game will come out that "looks"? pretty cool and people might pick it up for another couple weeks but after that its over.
As far as punch out goes, Seeing as how the only really fun way to play it is using the classic controller or turning the uncomfortable wiimote sideways, its kind of a pointless sale for the wii, but good cause boxing with the wiimote like in wii sports is so far from fun its ridiculous. EVERY TIME you swing that fucking cord pops you in the face or neck or arm, its ludicrous.
I am in no way saying that they arent successful, im just saying it’s a boring ass console.
Iwata with the zinger of the day...that's got to burn, Microsoft.
Nintendo's got them both beat, their motion controller comes with EVERY single system sold.
Even if Microsoft or Sony were to sell their motion controller at cost, they would never be able to reach their installed base numbers, which is, at present time, half of Nintendo total Wii base.
Sony/Microsoft, save your money, just throw it into the next console.
To be honest I think that Nintendo made the right decision. The approach that Nintendo chose makes a lot more sense and is far more versatile compared to what Microsoft and Sony have come up with. Say for example I'm playing a Platform game, lets say Mario for example or an RPG (Final Fantasy) Am I really gonna enjoy jumping and running up and down like some kinda clown making a fool out of my self? The whole just becomes really tedious after a while. With the Wii's approach you get the best of both worlds.
LOL and calling BS @ the spin!
The reason it failed has probably got something to do with using archaic hardware for the Wii. It's good at what it does do, but seriously that kind of processing power would have pushed it to it's limit with more than one person.
I think you're on the money. When talking about Natal, whoever was on the business end of the interview explained that the multi-array mic and video processing is hardware intensive and requires specialized software.
Nintendo could easily do natal now with there current system. I thing you have to remember is that you don't necessarily need the Core Wii unit to do all the processing power. All you need is a processor in the lets say for now "Natal Unit" , software that specifically designed for the specific processor that's in the "Natal Unit" and a protocol or software update so both the Wii and the Unit can talk. So processing power is definitely not a factor on the Wii unless you were processing everything real time on the machine and that never happens anymore for example PC's they have a separate processor to do work and graphics when you play games.
If Nintendo didn't like camera-based motion control, in what way will they one-up their current console? Camera-based motion is the best I can think of.
They don't need to reinvent the control scheme, just tinker with it, like N64 to Gamecube. Wii2 can have a harddrive, built in microphone, 360-level or better graphics and a remodeled motion plus controller and be fine.
Maybe, at the time, Nintendo was right. Maybe they're still right. But with advances in tech, why not try again?
They current sensor bar is a lot of issue, first make them wireless so you can attach them anywhere without worry about the darn wire. Also the wii controller need some upgrade.
They do. There is quite a few of companies who make the wireless sensor bar and wireless nunchuck and the controller just got an upgrade it's called MotionPlus. Check the company Nyko. They have everything you have asked for. Peronally I like that the sensor bar is wired don't have to worry about getting new/rechargeable batteries all the time. What the companies need to do is include charging stations in there systems.
When Sony and Microsoft announce their vitality monitor, I'll listen to what Nintendo thinks about best technology. Until then, I'll think of Nintendo as the maker of that white box gathering dust in the corner.
Regardless of the company, I prefer motion technology that works as advertised the day I take it out of the box, not 3 years later with an add that I have to buy to make it accurate.