Sony patents new Cell-based PS2 emulator
By Joseph L. Flatley 
posted Jun 30th 2009 12:38PM
posted Jun 30th 2009 12:38PM
At first glance, we thought this all sounded a little too familiar: as you know, some PS3s had software-based PS2 emulation way back in 2007. So it was a little bit of a surprise when Siliconera unearthed patent docs dated last December (and only published by the patent office late last week) for the technology to decode and recompile software written for the PS2's Emotion Engine on the current device's Cell Processor. There's been some speculation that this functionality might be included in the rumored slim PS3 at some point -- either in the form of support for your old school PS2 discs or for digital downloads. Who knows? You might be playing your old copy of Shrek: Super Party! on your PS3 sooner than you think.
[Via Joystiq]
[Via Joystiq]
Price it right, and I'll finally get a PS3.
$10 says the new PS3 slim will cost MORE than the current PS3 (a la PSP-Go).
Anyone taking that bet?
Dad always said I should never bet when the odds are against me, so no, thanks.
Um, what? (Emotion Engine chip board on the right)
http://www.eternal-champions.com/images/ps3jcus-v-eu.jpg
Didn't we have backward compatibility with the emotion engine in the launch PS3s?
P.S. Well, I suspect this news is a hint that probably spells "curtains" for the PS2. Watch!
Sony Quote for why the PS3 slim costs more:
"Hey with this new machine you get FULL PS2 backward compatibility. 2 machines in one. thats why it costs more" Riiiight ;^)...
Of course the PS3 Slim will cost more, Same with the PSone n PS2 Slim. the Fat version all drop in price n sell out though.
Then the Slim drops in price a few months later n the cycle continues.
Era, on the left side with the sad face...
Smart People Play Tuba: Just as a matter of principle, I'll take that bet.
sorry smart people...that's a dumb bet.
This is the only way I would ever buy a PS3.
Caveat: PS1 support would have to be there as well.
Trust me, I got a 60GB PS3 and after trying to play ps2 games on my 40" LCD I will never try to play it again. Even with the games upscaled, the graphics are shitty and the game is not full screen.
PS1 support is already in every PS3 since emulating it is easy as pie.
They may not look good, but some PS1 games are more fun than a lot of PS3 games.
PS1 classics : PS3 yawners :: Empire Strikes Back : Attack of the Clones
Yeah, where's my Poy Poy 2? Pepsiman? Trap Gunner? PS1 let everyone put out games and it was an awesome time.
Hell, where's Destruction Derby 2? Twisted Metal 2?
All models have PS1 support because they can emulate it in software ridiculously easily. PS2 support was cut because there actually was a hardware component.
@m3nphls
Just sit twice as far away. It'll look better.
Hey! Good info, folks! Thanks very much! :D
I agree.. I have a bunch of PS2 games that I would like to play but unless the 3 can do it I don't want one! I can't afford to buy a bunch of $60 games =(
I don't see the big deal with backwards compatibility anymore. Sure it would be nice if they did it, and I'm kind of disappointed. But I can't think up a reason to be really mad about it, and most people shouldn't mind having a ps2 hooked up as well. That is, unless you have a really bad tv without enough ports.
It has nothing to do with mad, it's just what I'm willing to drop my hard earned dollars on. Honestly, I'm shocked to learn that the PS3 has PS1 compatibility, but not PS2. It's just another one of those decisions on Sony's part that shows they don't care as much about their users as they could, and I'd say it's probably why they don't move as many consoles.
CTR anyone?
@ 10min
If you meant CRT, then look no further:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/04/students-create-crt-emulator-hope-to-recapture-that-analog-gami/
PS2 emulation looks fine on my 60GB when you're not playing titles older than dirt. The more recent RPGs like the last couple of PS2 Dragon Quests really do hold up, for instance. This is true of most games that took advantage of progressive scanning and came out of reasonably well-run dev shops.
No, I mean Crash Team Racing.
Well, hello there backwards compatibility on the PS3. Let me introduce you to a few friends, I'm sure you've heard of them.
Here's the Wii and XBOX 360.
I'll let you all get re-acquainted...
Backwards compatibility on the 360 is a joke.
I believe Sony cut it out in newer models to save on production costs, I hear even when the launch 60gb PS3 was $600, it cost roughly $800 to make.
It is embarrassing when a Sony exec poked fun at the 360 for only having partial software compatibility for Xbox titles and Sony kills it altogether.
Until the xbox360 can play timesplitters 2 future perfect in backwards compatibility mode, its backwards compatibility will be considered shit to me.....it pisses me off that not all titles work, only select titles....
@ sean...
i second that
@ Sean:
The thing here is, BC on the 360 has always been less than a primary focus for the 360, right from the get go. PS3 was pushing the BC as a mainstream feature so imagine the shock when it was yanked completely. Wii's a Gamecube in disguise as it were, so that's always been available.
slimmer, younger, better looking *looks at ps3* Well, my friend this looks like where we go our separate ways.
Now that I look at the article's graphic again, I actually hear Macbeth's comment in my head with Rodney Dangerfield's voice.
I've yet to have any urge to play my PS2 games on my PS3. They look like shit in HD.
They could be adding some extra features to sharpen up the outdated graphics. AAx16 lol.
I occasionally play GT4 on my 20GB PS3 and that still looks great. But that also supported HD back in the day. San Andreas is really the only other PS2 game I play and it doesn't look too bad.
I don't see where all this hype is coming from. Very few people use BC. Just like very few people use MMS but that was overhyped when it wasn't on the iPhone. I'll never use that either. Lots of MS fans on Engadget with a lot of spare time I suspect.
Oh noes, I made an iPhone reference. Must down rank!! AHHH!!!
Can Sony make up their mind on backwards compatibility? Talk about fragmented functionality, you need a page long matrix just to know if which PS3 can play PS2 games and on top of that which ones give you full BC and which ones give you partial BC.
If they have an emulator, all PS3s can have BC
i got a feeling once ps2 sales dip some more or get discontinued we will see bc come out in a firmware update. also for the record all ps3's have ps1 backwards compatability
Don't you eat it!
It's a poisonous, MAGIC pie!
God this whole Backwards Compatibility nonsense has so much misinformation surrounding it. And that Siliconera site is doing nothing to make it any less confusing.
"What if the PS3’s cell processor could emulate the Emotion Engine? Theoretically, all PlayStation 3s would be able to play PS2 games"
The current "Software-based" BC PS3's already fully emulate the Emotion Engine in software. The chances are that this patent is a new or unique way of accomplishing that emulation. Or they just finally got round to emulating it. There is nothing new about emulating the EE CPU in software.
In order to emulate the PS2, you also have to emulate the GPU, which is the problem. The newer BC PS3's still have a modified version of the PS2's GPU on board. This patent does nothing to describe the process, or even intention, of emulating the GPU in software.
I meant to say "...finally got round to patenting it."
Sorry for the fail.
Bingo. This patent is for how the old PS3's used to do BC. When the patent crops up for software emulation of the GSX then call me.
I actually wouldn't mind playing GoW 1, 2 in preparation for the third one.
If they introduced a slim PS3 with legacy PS1 AND PS2 support at the right price I would get one.
ALL PS3's do PS1 emulation. They even sell some PSClassics on the PSN Store too.
If its not a firmware update for current PS3's then there will be hell to pay
emulators are done in software, why the fuck would it matter if a new ps3 slim was coming out if it had the exact same hardware and updated OS but its case was thinner. Genius engadget authors at their finest
Because some companies subscribe to this awful conspiracy of actually trying to make money
I've been hearing about ps3 slim and price cuts for over a year now.....Its coming, its coming..... never mind no its not. I'll believe it when I see it. I would really like to pick one up, I've heard great things about PS3. I just can't justify doing it at the current price point.
Okay, this has been reported by half a dozen news sites.
They've emulated the PS2 CPU using the PS3 CPU. This has been true since the UK 60GB version, and the US 80GB bundle packs (MGS4, MotorStorm)
This is not a patent for emulating the PS2 GPU, which was dropped in the latest PS3s.
Therefore, no emulation, at least according to this single patent.
I wonder if the software method will be superior to what I have in my vintage 20gb... also if EE equipped PS3's would even have access to software emulation?
is shrek super party really worth the upgrade?
Yes and yes!
I think this would only help the subset of PS3 owners with the 2007 models that still have the GPU chip and are using current half-baked software emulation of the EE chip. Currently sold PS3s have no PS2 hardware, and just having the EE fully emulated will not work.
I'm feeling some conspiracy here. First, Sony made a poll if gamers want GOW 1 & 2 on the limited edition GoW 3. Now we hear about the emulator. It looks to me like PS3 will not be supporting original PS2 discs but Sony will make us buy them again either bundled with newer games -as in GoW 3- or via PSN.
No respect... no respect.
Just to clarify for folks, this patent is OLD. This is how the original 'software emulated' PS3's were sold, the UK 60GB n the US 80GB, the EE was emulated n the GSX was still the physical chip. Only the original Launch 60GB n 20GB had full PS2 emulation with the EE CPU n GSX GPU.
So don't raise hopes until someone uncovers a patent for Software emulation of GSX on Cell.
Though if you really want PS2 emulation theses guys do a very good job - http://www.pcsx2.net/
Wow... never knew about this project - I just saw the Shadow of The Colossus emulation on PCSX2 - pretty good.
Why doesnt Sony just hire these guys and be done with it....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgyXToPKnMA
I mean these guys did Shadow of the Colossus on a nvidia 8800GT, how much more harder can it be on a PS3 graphics card.
Sony GPU is equivalent of a 7900, but the Cell should be able to pick up the slack.
But yeah these guys have optimised it for multi-core chips, no knowledge of the PS2 architecture or Cell, so these guys with there mostly feature complete emulator, with Sony's know how of the Cell n full know how of the EE n GSX and they could have full PS2 software emulation in no time.
The emulation is targeted for digital downloads, not disc based PS2 games. Sony want you to re-buy your PS2 games.
Ding Ding Ding we have a winner! I agree completely. However I do not own any PS2 games so I wouldn't mind picking up GoW 1 and 2 if the price was right.
And you know this how? The PS1 emulation supports both disc based games and DD off PSN store.
Yes, just like Microsoft and Nintendo, and im glad though. i'd love to have God of War and Shadow of The Colosus, ICO, first Killzone, Fnal Fantasies (maybe XI? They said it will still be supported even after the release of XIV) and other ps2 games redone in HD on my ps3 HDD.
But they real sony fanboys (the ones that actually want the BC feature) could care less, they bought a ps3 on launch and can play their ps2 games perfectly fine. I don't understand why everyone is moaning about BC, they wont use it anyway.
can someone explain the picture please?
He got a face lift. Turns out, there was one just like it underneath!
SWEET! Sure am glad I just dished $400 on a PS3 that doesn't play all my PS2 games. That's it Sony, I'm done with you forever. Could you at least release a software version for those of us that believed your "10 year lifecycle BS"?
No reason not to believe the 10 year life cycle. PSone was phased out aged 11 n PS2 is still going at over 9 years old.
If you really want it PS2s are still available in the shop to buy, if Wii or 360 dropped BC you'd be shafted cos it'll be ebay or nothing for getting on of those.
No reason to be upset. There is nothing about this patent that should affect you. IF, and that is a big if, Sony ever gets PS2 emulation running on the newer PS3s it will be available to all PS3s. It will simply be a software download. I am not saying it will be free but it will be available.
Now, what would affect you and a lot of other people is if Sony released a new hardware version that put PS2 hardware back in the PS3. However, I do not see this ever happening because of the massive amount of customer backlash.
@ HolyReki - You didn't know that the PS3 you "just bought" doesn't play PS2 games? Since you just bought it, feel free to return it since you are done with Sony forever. I think it even says that it can play PS2 games on the box (not sure and can check when I get home)! This is not a new thing. It also definately wasn't kept a secret with every blog and anti-PS3/Sony person using it as justification for hating on the PS3. Even Wiki has (and has had) a nice little chart about what features come with which version/revision, here's the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Models
Also, like many folk said, how often is the BC used? I've had my PS3 for about a year and a half and hadn't once thought about the need to play a PS2 game. That is just me of course. I've often said that it would be cool if Sony released a downloadable addon or firmware upgrade that allowed for it, but the more I thought about it the more I couldn't recall any games I'd want to play. Only non-PS3 game that comes to mind is FFVII which is PSOne and the PS3 plays it.
Man people, quit belly aching about getting to play PS1 or 2 games on the PS3. If you want that then buy a PS2 for $100. I for one don't want to go back in time to those awful graphics and gameplay. Move forward people not backwards.
Well, that would make the living room quite a messy place, there was nothing better back in the days than replacing the old PS1 brick for the slim PS2 and didn't even had to replace the cables! (Yeah I'm one more of those people that are waiting for the PS3 to have BC) Plus you get some money back if you sell the old model!
There's still a bunch of good PS2 titles that people love to play like all the the Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Silent Hill, Project Zero, Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil...
The only people that don't want back words compatibility are fools or rich people! We have two boys 6,4 that play our 80g BC PS3 constantly. We refuse to pay $50 and $60 bucks for PS3 games,the games we do buy are used and most are PS2 games. You can get good titles that kids like for dirt cheep, $1.99-$9.99 range. We have a nice library of game that keep them entertained and don't cost us a fortune. I dint know what @M3nphls is talking about but most (not all )look OK on our 50in Samsung Plasma. I'm surprised how good of a job the PS3 dues do in up scaleing sum of them, sounds to me like M3nphls you need to drop that LCD and get a TV with a faster refresh rate like my Plasma ;)
Why buy a PS3 if your just gonna be picking up bargain PS2 titles though? a PS2 is 1/5 of the price(of a BC PS3, 1/4 of non BC), so I'm sorry but I'm gonna turn the finger on you and call you a rich fool.
dont laugh...
I actually like Shrek Super Party. Let the games begin!
"technology to decode and recompile software written for the PS2's Emotion Engine on the current device's Cell Processor"
It doesn't say emulate it says re-compile. As in create native code for the PS3.
This looks like a way to put the PS2 games up for download rather than give you a way to play your old PS2 DVD/CDs.
Limited knowledge but my understanding is this is how the Wii does Gamecube/N64 compatibility
Price it right
I have one of the 1st Gen 60gb PS3's (the "deluxe" model when they launched) that has PS2 support via hardware. The later versions of the PS3 dropped the PS2 hardware.
However... I haven't used that feature for a long time. I still have a PStoo that I play some GT4 on occasionally (plus I have the Joytech LCD on it for portable gaming goodness), so it's kind of pointless for me.
is this working
my theory is that Sony killed BC back in 2007 to sell more PS2. since PS3 Hardware is losing money.,PS2 Hardware is still making money. Just for the reccord im aps3 60gb owner.
Seriously, no one brought up the fact that if they wanted, with software emulation they could render (not upscale) these games in HD or at least 480p (for those that arent) making them appear much better on peoples 60 inch HDTVs.
They probably wont do it because of the time (read money) and that it could cause issues with certain games costing more time (again money) to work on such issues. which is understandable from a business standpoint that they'd rather just get it working and be done with it. And of course because (as insert my head firmly up my ass) Soney is tuh Sux0rs!!!... EVIL... BLAH BLAH BLAH.
seriously though Microsoft could have done this with the BC on the 360. Nintendo did it with N64 games. Of course they're selling each one these at $10 a pop.
And i guess the biggest proof that its never happening is that they didn't even bother to do it with PS1 games on the PS3. I played Vagrant story like 5 years ago on the ePSX emulator for PC at something above 720p and it was definently an improvement especially with all the different texture smoothing options.
We all remember Bleemcast...
@eSocrates
This wouldn't work for Microsoft. The XBOX 360 uses a PowerPC CPU that's totally different than the X86 chip in the XBOX.
This patent is nothing more than a patent for what they ALREADY DID on the PS2s that use software emulation. I don't see why everybody is acting like it's something new.
Next, Nintendo's going to patent a feature the DS already has, like centering a microphone between 2 screens on a handheld device, and the internet's going to go haywire.