Palm complains about Apple to USB governing body, while Pre / iTunes sync "fix" is explained
By Ross Miller 
posted Jul 24th 2009 5:41PM
posted Jul 24th 2009 5:41PM
"Unauthorized use of assigned or unassigned USB Vendor ID Numbers and associated Product ID Numbers are strictly prohibited."The implication here is that Palm believes Apple is violating this stature by disallowing certain Vendor IDs -- namely, Palm's -- from using iTunes. So how'd Palm manage to "fix" that syncing hole Apple managed to fill? From the looks of it, by misrepresenting its own Vendor ID, so that the Pre now shows up as a iPod / mass storage device made by Apple (ID 0x05ac) as opposed to one by Palm (ID 0x083) -- hence the complaint. Of course, lying about your own ID would seem to break with the aforementioned rule, too, so what we're left here is some muddled grey area and Palm apparently being okay with fudging some data to correct what it sees is an injustice. If anyone's curious, DVD Jon points out that the root USB Node is still identified as "Pre," so we very likely could see another round of these shenanigans in the not-too-distant future.
Finally, now's as good of a time as any to take a look at some of the peripheral casualties from this war of attrition. In an essay on his personal site that's been circulating the interwebs, Marc Deslauriers outlines the pangs he and the Linux community have felt over the years trying to use iPods on the open source platform, surmising that Apple is intentionally and repeatedly seeking ways to block non-iTunes programs from syncing in any way with its devices. This story is far from over, and as ugly as it looks now, it's probably only gonna get worse.
[Via Digg and Pre Central]
Read - Marc Deslauriers, "Goodbye Apple"
Read - Palm's lodges complaint with USB IF
Read - USB Vendor ID application
Read - Palm Pre USB hack confirmed
Any HTC Touch Pro 2 news?
"Palm complains about Apple to USB governing body, while Pre / iTunes sync "fix" is explained"
This is you: "I know! I'll be a dumbass and ask about the HTC Touch Pro 2 in a post concerning Palm's complaint about Apple with the Pre/iTunes!"
Conclusion: Shut the @$*# up, dumbass.
Jeez, did I ruin your apple/palm war outrage moment?
No, you just talked about something completely unrelated to the topic at hand. That's like going into a Apple Store and asking where the Microsoft computers are (or vice versa, I suppose, in a few months). Stick to the topic at hand seems to be what he was getting at.
@o
no, no they do not. The locking in of a device and software is one bitch of a move and it's causing nightmares for apples customers. Ask many linux users what they're pet peeve is and odds are they're answer will be that ipod syncing is a bitch. Ipod touch's / iphones simple *cant* be synched (without unlocking, which has its own problems). So, they're screwing over their own customers, that's a bitch move.
This is less about palm and more about apple being dicks with the whole lock-in system with the ipod/itunes, the customer has the right to choose what software they use with their hardware.
I can't believe apple get away with this BS and microsoft can't even bundle a web browser with their OS.
(Note: I own a macbook pro, and an ipod touch, I'm not a linux/ms/palm fanboy)
"It's Apple's software and they can do whatever they want with it."
Of course! God forbid that they have to adhere to any "standards."
"By the way, Mark is only here to win prizes in engadget's recession antidote so he can shut the fuck up. "
I usually read comments, but I don't always comment unless I have something to say. Thanks for playing, though.
@o
How old are you?
@o if apple didnlt want anything to do with a "shitty phone on a crappy network with a terrible UI" then they wouldn't have released the iphone.
(couldn't resist)
I am so glad that Palm are doing this. Microsoft get bashed about the inclusion of IE in their OS, yet Apple are able to get away with things like this. Apple have a monopoly in the portable player market. What Sonys Walkmans were in the 80's and 90's is what Apples iPods are in this century. I find it amazing that they get away scott free in their monopoly of iTunes/iPod. If the EU are going to roast Microsoft for the inclusion of IE, then Apple needs to be given the same treatment for the inclusion of Safari. Apple cries like a little biatch when Microsoft ads lampoon them over laptop costs, yet for years they have been mouthing crap about the non Apple PC market. Every other company gets stick for stuff they do but Apple just flutter their eyelids and expect to walk away without explaining themselves. It's time Apple got what's coming to them.
"It's Apple's software and they can do whatever they want with it"
Sure, it's Apple's software... No, it's not Apple's MUSIC. The fact that they're preventing the transfer of media which is *not theirs* (even if it's owned by Apple's music division, the fact remains that it was created by the artist, not Apple themselves) simply because it's being done via their own software is absolutely pathetic. How petty can you get?
Think about this for a moment. Apple can do its will with its software. Is the "method" to control it, what's not legal. Or not fair...
If I use USB for syncing, I must abide to the rules that govern the standard. Should I create a device that uses a totally proprietary connection interface, I could set the rules for using such connection and no one could ever say shit about it.
Otherwise... It's kind of fuzzy the way that Palm implemented this technology. I mean, you would expect the device to appear as what it is in iTunes. And not trying to pass as an iPod.
Palm already had an agreement with the use of iSync under Mac OSX, so I think this should have been treated as a new deal.
How about Microsoft blocks all Apple devices from using thier USB ports? How about Windows breaks network compatibility so that Macs can't see NT file shares?
Apple is wrong here, but not out of character.
To john:
So if i go buy a diesel truck(knowing it takes diesel) should i bitch and moan when i can't use unleaded? just because its more convenient ?
@Sax25
"If the EU are going to roast Microsoft for the inclusion of IE, then Apple needs to be given the same treatment for the inclusion of Safari."
I don't think you understand the concept of abusing a monopoly. Microsoft's Windows is the pre-installed OS of choice for 95+% of PC manufacturers, and holds nearly 100% of the market for paid, non-open source operating systems installed on x86 PCs. Because of this enormous reach, they are held to a very high level of scrutiny about using this market position to "cheat" their way into new markets, like the browser market.
Apple, on the other hand, is still by far the minority player when it comes to computers. Their marketshare is growing (and certainly is far larger among premium PCs purchased for consumer use), but it is still under 10% in the USA, and almost non-existent worldwide.
As far as the iPod and iTunes goes, their marketshare may eventually lead to anti-trust issues. It almost did with their DRM, and the only reason it fizzled out was because DRM was finally removed before the issues had gathered too much steam.
@Donte: You missed the point.
Using your diesel truck example, assume Exxon made their own diesel powered vehicles. Now let's assume that *only* Exxon diesel powered vehicles are able to refuel at Exxon diesel pumps. So, if someone had a diesel powered Volkswagen, they would not be able to re-fuel at Exxon, since the pump is "incompatible" with the Volkswagen. And that, would be bullshit.
That would be the equivalent to this situation. Apple is only allowing Apple branded devices to connect and sync with iTunes. They are, in fact, *deliberately* preventing non-Apple branded devices to connect and sync with iTunes, thus the problem.
If Microsoft were to *prevent* the installation of competing products on Windows (such as Firefox), not only would they be slapped with an antitrust lawsuit, but they would lose the case before the trial would even start! They can't claim that "it's their software, and they can do whatever they want with it." By law, what they have done is anti-competitive. Like Windows, iTunes is a very dominant player in the market. If one company has to abide by those conditions, then so should Apple.
@Sax25: There are lots of inaccuracies in your comment that need to be addressed.
Microsoft was bashed for INEXTRICABLY tying IE to Windows. You couldn't remove it if you wanted to. You CAN remove Safari from your Mac and use another browser if you want to. Microsoft did this to leverage their OS monopoly to push Netscape out of the browser market. It's monopoly abuse, which is illegal, and they were convicted of it (though the anemic justice departments around the world did very little about it).
Apple's use of iTunes is totally different. First, you don't have to get an iPod or iPhone. There are plenty of other (and many here would argue better) choices out there that don't require iTunes like Apple products do. It says on the box that you need to use iTunes to sync the product, so if you don't want to use iTunes, don't buy an iPod or iPhone. If you've already purchased music in iTunes, 99.5% of it can be upgraded to DRM-free music (now that the music companies have finally given in) which can go into any music ecosystem compatible with AAC, an open standard. You're not tied to iTunes. You can leave if you want to and get a Pre, for example, but Palm can't simply co-opt Apple's technology. That's IP theft.
Finally, Microsoft wants you to believe that Apple cried like a little bitch about the ads. The facts are these: the ads drew attention to Mac prices that were no longer accurate, to continue running the ads as is would have been false advertising, and Microsoft had to change the ads or face a lawsuit. Microsoft's stooge COO then misrepresented Apple's call (which likely said that they couldn't continue running the ads AS THEY CURRENTLY WERE) in order to get some much-needed good PR, and you fell for it. Apple obviously had a legitimate claim or Microsoft wouldn't have changed a damn thing. They did. And you can bet your ass that if Apple made a blatantly false claim about Microsoft products in their ads, Microsoft would have called them on that too. This whole discussion regarding these ads has been absurd, inaccurate, and exactly what Microsoft wanted.
Both Apple and Microsoft are getting what's coming to them. Look at the financials both companies just reported.
WHY DOES THE PRE WISH IT WAS AN IPHONE SO BADLY ... HEY PALM .. WRITE YOUR OWN SOFTWARE AND QUIT YOUR BITCHING
Palm has balls.
am sure yours have balls all da time. :)
The Pre is Palm's saving grace, they are not going to take Apple's crap.
"You should be refilling that popcorn bucket right about now." was one of the best post starters thus far.
Balls is right. It's one thing to tease a tiger from outside of the cage, it's another thing entirely to open the door and slap it in the face.
And yet another thing to lock the cage behind you and tell the tiger to start sharing its food.
I don't see why people are siding with Apple on this one. This would be like Microsoft saying no device but the Zune will work with Windows Media Player. Imagine the outrage that would cause.
@DizWhiz
lol no one would care, who uses Windows Media Player?
^^ wouldnt want to use itunes either....only have to use it cos of my ipod
more like Palm has no choice. If the Pre flops Palm is gone for good this time. The sad part is that even will all the attention Palm is getting from the Apple altercation Pre still doesn't sell very well and the US is still the only market that they have. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that's how you stay afloat ...
So when do we begin the anti-trust suit againt Apple? It seems like this is another case of Apple being a closed ecosystem. Palm should take their arse to court.
... and people say that Microsoft is the monopoly trying to control the world - lmao!
Don't mess with apple they know the yakuza and will make you commit suicide.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Yakuza in China?
Maybe you are referring to the Triad?
(as if I know anything whatsoever)
Oh sh*t, I think I saw Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker 'round the corner!
Go Palm!
This could get fun.
I don't know.
I'm not an Apple fan, but Apple has a shit load of money to back it up.
Palm is barley recovering from it's decline.
Maybe, just maybe; Microsoft will jump in and aid Palm.
Unfortunately Microsoft also makes a mobile OS, so they will likely wait on the sideline for Palm to do as much damage as possible, and then take over pushing for anti-trust suits when Palm passes out.
i think what apple did is a bitch move
Don't worry.
We will.
Bitch move? Wow. Well, since it's a matter of USB open standards, I suppose Apple erasing any Palm Pre attached could be defensible in some twisted way. But they're not going to do that; that would be malicious.
I mean, the fact is, there are legitimate ways to see and access the very open iTunes library; the Serato Scratch DJ software sees the music and the playlists, and accesses them within their own software, Palm will likely end up doing this too with some software that I'm sure wouldn't be difficult for them.
But this 'imitate an iPod' thing Palm is doing is really in the fuzzy unprofessional area. The Pre doesn't identify itself as a Pre, so it's sort of obvious that there's something iffy about it. They actually have customers expecting it to work, mention it as a solution, even though they have made no agreement with Apple to allow it and continue Apple's "support" of the Pre. And Palm is making an amicable agreement to get legitimate support from Apple and iTunes less and less possible with every hour they do this.
Apple is the new Big Brother. How ironic.
Apple is a licencee of Microsoft Exchange for the iPhone OS and the upcoming Snow Leopard -- they pay Microsoft for their products compatible with a Microsoft tech. Palm is using a shady work around with the Pre so that it identifies itself as an iPod. If Palm thinks that iTunes syncing is so important to their users then they should license it (like the moto ROKR) or create their own software that utilizes the iTunes library file.
@brian,
What are you talking about? how is Apple making sure only Apple manufactured devices use an Apple created program reason to call a company "Big Brother"?
Apple has always been fascist, that is nothing new. The only new thing is that they have a big enough market share in something for anyone else to care.
@ill trooper You mean like how every web browser in the world identifies itself as "Mozilla"? Seriously, identity spoofing from ("I am an IBM PC and can run MS-DOS") to MacOS X's Samba ("I am a Windows-like computer, let me see your SMB share") is nothing new in the technology world.
@pina: Do you really think they didn't try?
I bet they tried the proper way first but Apple would have none of it.
Hey, it beats UFC.
Yeah. We just need to put animations to this or something. Now that would be awesome. And there could be episodes and everything!
Apple is the new Microsoft.
Apple has always been a version of Microsoft...only smaller and lurking in the shadows till the iPod made them come out into the spot light. I'm just waiting for the EU rain of lawsuits to come up once they are done with Microsoft, Intel, and everyone else.
Exactly
As Apple is getting bigger they are having more and more issues. Before they got away with things because no one cared about them. Now they are having many of the same issues Microsoft had, only difference is Microsoft has learned over the years how to cope with things like this and Apple has not. Apple believes it's their way or no way, which definitely does not and will not work.
If Microsoft is China, Apple is Iran.
A fraction of the size, but just as evil and with a good deal more technical competence.
Further to that, Apple is more like the new Sony. Unfriendly to consumers, competitors, and anyone else who threatens their ecosystem, but with a smile on their face. Trying to push standards and buck industry trends, arrogantly ignoring features that lesser products have and that their products lack, and of course, charging more just because. But, like Sony in the 80's and 90's, their products are so popular and dominant in their respective fields that nobody bothers to actually stop and realize what they're doing.
Quite frankly, modern Sony (from the past couple of years) is incredibly open compared to the crap that Apple is pulling these days. Sony has started to learn their lesson (maybe too late), while Apple grew to be quite powerful quite quickly, and are now starting to throw their weight around.
What are you talking about? Apple has always tried to keep their stuff private. How is this anything new?
Huh..never thought about Apple compared to Sony but you are correct. We can only hope that Apple will begin to fail again like Sony is now.
Apple, unlike Microsoft, hasn't violated any license terms or done anything illegal. Microsoft has a track record of this. Its one thing to make it a pain in the ass for developers through legal means which is legit and within reason -PROTECTING INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. But its being a completely a-hole when you break the law intentionally knowing that by the time the lawsuites settle paying fines, you'll have meet your goal of killing off competetion and the fines were worth it. Thats the definition of an a-hole.
1) Microsoft intentionally breaking the Java JVM native interface making their JVM completely incompatible and violating Sun's license terms.
2) Aquiring Sybase SQL, taking their technology (stealing) for their own product, MS-SQL, then renig. on the deal leaving Sybase to rot.
3) Violating anti trust laws by threatening and enforcing the licensing of their OS exclusively to OEMs that promise to refuse any others (Linux, UNIX, etc).
4) Destroying evidence in BURST vs. Microsoft, going to court and simply not giving a damn knowing the damage has been done.
Microshaft plays dirty, but at least Apple is staying within the law.
Its about the !!! software stupid !!!
And they'll do what they can to protect their property, what they own, and rightfully so.
Somebody has seen Antitrust too many times it seems... ;)
It's only a matter of time before the Apple mafia takes over California.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. M$ criminal wrap sheet of corruption and outright threats are too long to list. Apple is just doing what they always have, protecting their privacy. This isn't news. They've always been that way and they shouldnt be forced to turn over their hard work to a dictator or bunch of communist leeches. For if they did, Apple wouldn't be where they are today.
Pre: I wanna be like Apple
Palm wants to be the complete opposite of Apple. They want to give their users freedom over what they use to sync their devices with, freedom over programming, etc, etc, etc. Unlike Apple who forces you to use their softwares. I still don't get how they've been able to get away with this monopolistic approach for so long.
Last time I checked, Apple doesn't force you to use their software to use their hardware, they only force you to use their hardware if you want to use their software.
Apple doesn't force you to use their software to use their hardware.
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! Making me install shitty iTunes just so I can put music on my iPhone IS forcing me to use software. Whats wrong with simple drag and drop in Windows Explorer? I would never in a million years install iTunes out of my own choice, but I have to because thats the only way I can get music, movies onto my phone.
Sorry, I didn't realize the iPhone and iPod Touch weren't simply recognized as mass storage devices. If you don't like iTunes, use a program like DoubleTwist then. It'll let you drag and drop onto the iPhone (or the Pre, or most other smart/dumb phones). As far as I know though, all of the other iPods are drag and drop-able.
@Sax
iTunes works fine on my computer maybe its an id10t error, or there's an issue between your chair and keyboard.
I'm sure there are plenty of reasons he may not want to use iTunes. Some people want to sort their own media into a particular file system. I don't personally see the benefit, but I won't begrudge others that desire. There are others who feel that iTunes uses too many resources (which doesn't seem to be as big a complaint on the OS X side as it does on Windows). Others have a preferred media player that handles more, and often obscure (though some would argue superior) codecs.
Why do I use iTunes? Because I don't care about those things, but that doesn't mean other don't.
@murmermer
Yeah, the only id10t error are those that use iTunes out of choice.
Of course iTunes is a memory hog in Windows. Why would Apple bother optimizing code for the Windows platform? I'm sure they don't give a shit. Nobody said iTunes doesn't do its job. All I am complaining about is why I need to install yet another program when I already have my choice of audio and video software installed and a music database program that has all my media organised. The only time I run iTunes is to transfer to the phone.
I don't even see where these complaints are coming from. I stream music nearly 24/7 with iTunes and do not have any performance issues. It's taking up 0.67% of my CPU now and ~54MB working set (obviously a lot of the 27MB of shared working set which comprises that is Windows' shared libraries that other applications already needed to have in memory as well).
I remember when mp3 playing took up 50% of your basic desktop's CPU. How is iTunes that bad?
Chris Dunning: "As far as I know though, all of the other iPods are drag and drop-able."
No, they're not. Not even a little bit. Apple not only doesn't support USB Mass Storage; they keep changing their iPods to break third-party software that talks to them.
Every day i wakeup hoping that Songbird finally has decent support for audiobooks so I can get rid of iTunes once and for all.
I used Songbird for the first time yesterday, and I loved it. Despite it used over 1000000 k , for real, then crashed, but its still a great music/web browser application.
I used Songbird for the first time yesterday, and I loved it. Despite it used over 1000000 k , for real, then crashed, but its still a great music/web browser application.
Engadget fix your comments please.
And so the plot thickens...
Well played absolute.. that will show em
"Palm has balls" ???
So, I guess it's ok for Apple to do what it's been doing with iTunes!? You wanna know why I love Palm? Because I can plug my Pre into any computer and sync anything I want at any time with or without iTunes, Windows Media Player or any other program. I have the option of syncing it in ANY WAY I WANT. And since it's a device I PAID for, I should be able to do it.
Apple has balls!
methinks your comment is misplaced.
It's Apple's software, they have the right to do what they want to it. And besides, the Pre syncing with iTunes is a violation of the EULA and other copyright stuffs.
"So, I guess it's ok for Apple to do what it's been doing with iTunes!? "
Um, yeah. They wrote the software, they can do with it what they want.
"I have the option of syncing it in ANY WAY I WANT"
Except with iTunes... in a week or two at least.
CRIPPLE FIGHT
Hahah... Wait, where's Verizon??
@ash chapman, I lol'd heartily good sir.
@ash
Man, there are times where I wish I could up vote a comment one thousand times, and your comment is one of those. ++++++, sir!
WTF Palm
Make your own software. It's like Apple going to microsoft and saying "You won't let iPhones sync with Zune Software, which is made for Zunes! Why!? You should open it for everyone!"
But of course, because it's Apple, everyone is going to call them evil.
...everyone calls them evil because they are...
Just like everyone calls Microsoft evil for trying to have a monopoly with IE on their OS...it's about time Apple got sued.
Well, Apple does have a strong position in this market. It is a dick move to block the Pre, though I'm not sure it could be considered against the USB spec as written -- after all, Apple's not refusing to honor the USB spec for the USB port on a hardware or OS level, they're just using the USB spec to block a hardware device from syncing with a specific piece of software.
The plot thickens for sure.
There is one issue with your argument Bob. Zune Software is not the market leader when it comes to music purchases. iTunes is. Thats the game changer, because when the market leader in any area begins locking down, it causes problems.
IE anyone?
Esteban, Since nothing in the iTunes store has DRM anymore it's a moot point. The music you buy can be copied to ANY device... You don't have to sync with iTunes to use that music!
@green
That's not the point. The point is most people use iTunes as their primary media player. All my music is on iTunes, and when I get a Pre I don't want to have to use some other media player just to put music on it. I have an iPod, and a MB, but I don't want to sign w/ AT&T and I don't really want an iPhone anyway. It's a dick move to deny anyone, but especially an Apple supporter such as myself.
Actually, it's still Apple's fault that their iPhone requires iTunes to Activate and Sync. Most music players at least give you the option to 'sideload' music via mass storage drivers in addition to any syncing software. The iPhone does not. But to be fair neither does a Zune (that I'm aware of).
But really, your still wrong, and now look stupid to boot.
I've heard from Pre owners that iTunes is the only way to have playlists on a Pre- can someone confirm? That's really disappointing if true...
Whether you like it or not, iPods and iTunes are made to work together by Apple, and they are marketed that way. There is no Apple marketing that say "use any device with iTunes", just as there is no marketing that says "use your iPod with any music software". They are completely up front about all of this. Personal feelings aside, if you want to use iTunes, get an iPod, and if you want to get an iPod, get iTunes, otherwise get something else and be happy in your choice - Apple doesn't have a monopoly on PMPs or music software.
I fail to see how there is any issue here at all.
And the Pre masquerading as an iPod would seem to invalidate their whole argument. "We think you broke the rules, so we're going to break them the same way and complain about your breaking the rules even though we did the same thing" Sounds a lot like discussions I had in 3rd grade on the playground...
You got some good points, but think about this
1.The ITunes Music Store is the largest music retailer in the world
2. The only the access the Itunes Music Store is by using the Itunes Software
3.The ITunes software only works (straight out of the box) with Apple devices/ same company who makes ITunes software.
I thinks its a hell of a business model, others might say that its unfair or illegal almost like a monopoly.
But the store is now DRM free, meaning there's no need to use iTunes to put your purchased music onto the desired device.
Here's the way I see it:
Anti-trust laws have come into play against Microsoft for having IE in Windows. Why? Microsoft basically has a monopoly when it comes to the OS world, Windows is everywhere. By including IE with it the EU is saying they are forcing it upon people and trying to create a monopoly in the browser category by piggybacking off their previous empire, Windows.
Now let's take iTunes and the iPod/iPhone. You can't use an iPod or certain aspects of the iPhone without iTunes. At all. Apple has a monopoly in the PMP arena, the iPod. Can't it be turned against them that they are trying to create a monopoly in the media player area by forcing iTunes upon people with the iPod/iPhone and leveraging off their success of the PMP. Or the other way around that by using iTunes you are being forced to use only their device? That they have the largest online music store and are trying to leverage into the PMP arena by forcing people who buy music off of it to only use their PMPs? Therefore Apple would be breaking anti-trust laws, as was decided against Microsoft in the EU.
All Apple needs to do is allow other companies to use their software. This would all just disappear so fast.
Being designed for a specific software is one thing. Blocking other devices from using that software, is another. If anything, Apple should state that they will only provide support for their own devices. Who cares who else is using their software? Money from a Palm, Microsoft, Android user is still money.
"Apple has a monopoly in the PMP arena"
^^^^^^
Pure genius!!
I bet you've also memorized Pi to the 214th decimal!
Keep in mind that Apple makes some money on iTunes, but it's real purpose it to drive hardware sales, on which Apple makes a significant profit.
"Apple has a monopoly in the PMP arena" No they don't. They have the largest market share, true, but when you can go down to Best Buy and buy a PMP from Sony, Sandisk Microsoft, etc, then there is no monopoly. People should really educate themselves as to what a monopoly really is. A monopoly on iPods is not a monopoly on PMPs. Using your logic GM has a monopoly on Delco radios, but I guess since they suck no one cares...
CraigJ -- you have that exactly backwards. The hardware is a loss leader (or has a very narrow profit margin) for the real profit center, which is the itunes music store.