Palm complains about Apple to USB governing body, while Pre / iTunes sync "fix" is explained
By Ross Miller 
posted July 24th 2009 5:41PM
posted July 24th 2009 5:41PM
"Unauthorized use of assigned or unassigned USB Vendor ID Numbers and associated Product ID Numbers are strictly prohibited."The implication here is that Palm believes Apple is violating this stature by disallowing certain Vendor IDs -- namely, Palm's -- from using iTunes. So how'd Palm manage to "fix" that syncing hole Apple managed to fill? From the looks of it, by misrepresenting its own Vendor ID, so that the Pre now shows up as a iPod / mass storage device made by Apple (ID 0x05ac) as opposed to one by Palm (ID 0x083) -- hence the complaint. Of course, lying about your own ID would seem to break with the aforementioned rule, too, so what we're left here is some muddled grey area and Palm apparently being okay with fudging some data to correct what it sees is an injustice. If anyone's curious, DVD Jon points out that the root USB Node is still identified as "Pre," so we very likely could see another round of these shenanigans in the not-too-distant future.
Finally, now's as good of a time as any to take a look at some of the peripheral casualties from this war of attrition. In an essay on his personal site that's been circulating the interwebs, Marc Deslauriers outlines the pangs he and the Linux community have felt over the years trying to use iPods on the open source platform, surmising that Apple is intentionally and repeatedly seeking ways to block non-iTunes programs from syncing in any way with its devices. This story is far from over, and as ugly as it looks now, it's probably only gonna get worse.
[Via Digg and Pre Central]
Read - Marc Deslauriers, "Goodbye Apple"
Read - Palm's lodges complaint with USB IF
Read - USB Vendor ID application
Read - Palm Pre USB hack confirmed
Any HTC Touch Pro 2 news?
"Palm complains about Apple to USB governing body, while Pre / iTunes sync "fix" is explained"
This is you: "I know! I'll be a dumbass and ask about the HTC Touch Pro 2 in a post concerning Palm's complaint about Apple with the Pre/iTunes!"
Conclusion: Shut the @$*# up, dumbass.
Jeez, did I ruin your apple/palm war outrage moment?
No, you just talked about something completely unrelated to the topic at hand. That's like going into a Apple Store and asking where the Microsoft computers are (or vice versa, I suppose, in a few months). Stick to the topic at hand seems to be what he was getting at.
@o
no, no they do not. The locking in of a device and software is one bitch of a move and it's causing nightmares for apples customers. Ask many linux users what they're pet peeve is and odds are they're answer will be that ipod syncing is a bitch. Ipod touch's / iphones simple *cant* be synched (without unlocking, which has its own problems). So, they're screwing over their own customers, that's a bitch move.
This is less about palm and more about apple being dicks with the whole lock-in system with the ipod/itunes, the customer has the right to choose what software they use with their hardware.
I can't believe apple get away with this BS and microsoft can't even bundle a web browser with their OS.
(Note: I own a macbook pro, and an ipod touch, I'm not a linux/ms/palm fanboy)
"It's Apple's software and they can do whatever they want with it."
Of course! God forbid that they have to adhere to any "standards."
"By the way, Mark is only here to win prizes in engadget's recession antidote so he can shut the fuck up. "
I usually read comments, but I don't always comment unless I have something to say. Thanks for playing, though.
@o
How old are you?
@o if apple didnlt want anything to do with a "shitty phone on a crappy network with a terrible UI" then they wouldn't have released the iphone.
(couldn't resist)
I am so glad that Palm are doing this. Microsoft get bashed about the inclusion of IE in their OS, yet Apple are able to get away with things like this. Apple have a monopoly in the portable player market. What Sonys Walkmans were in the 80's and 90's is what Apples iPods are in this century. I find it amazing that they get away scott free in their monopoly of iTunes/iPod. If the EU are going to roast Microsoft for the inclusion of IE, then Apple needs to be given the same treatment for the inclusion of Safari. Apple cries like a little biatch when Microsoft ads lampoon them over laptop costs, yet for years they have been mouthing crap about the non Apple PC market. Every other company gets stick for stuff they do but Apple just flutter their eyelids and expect to walk away without explaining themselves. It's time Apple got what's coming to them.
"It's Apple's software and they can do whatever they want with it"
Sure, it's Apple's software... No, it's not Apple's MUSIC. The fact that they're preventing the transfer of media which is *not theirs* (even if it's owned by Apple's music division, the fact remains that it was created by the artist, not Apple themselves) simply because it's being done via their own software is absolutely pathetic. How petty can you get?
Think about this for a moment. Apple can do its will with its software. Is the "method" to control it, what's not legal. Or not fair...
If I use USB for syncing, I must abide to the rules that govern the standard. Should I create a device that uses a totally proprietary connection interface, I could set the rules for using such connection and no one could ever say shit about it.
Otherwise... It's kind of fuzzy the way that Palm implemented this technology. I mean, you would expect the device to appear as what it is in iTunes. And not trying to pass as an iPod.
Palm already had an agreement with the use of iSync under Mac OSX, so I think this should have been treated as a new deal.
How about Microsoft blocks all Apple devices from using thier USB ports? How about Windows breaks network compatibility so that Macs can't see NT file shares?
Apple is wrong here, but not out of character.
To john:
So if i go buy a diesel truck(knowing it takes diesel) should i bitch and moan when i can't use unleaded? just because its more convenient ?
@Sax25
"If the EU are going to roast Microsoft for the inclusion of IE, then Apple needs to be given the same treatment for the inclusion of Safari."
I don't think you understand the concept of abusing a monopoly. Microsoft's Windows is the pre-installed OS of choice for 95+% of PC manufacturers, and holds nearly 100% of the market for paid, non-open source operating systems installed on x86 PCs. Because of this enormous reach, they are held to a very high level of scrutiny about using this market position to "cheat" their way into new markets, like the browser market.
Apple, on the other hand, is still by far the minority player when it comes to computers. Their marketshare is growing (and certainly is far larger among premium PCs purchased for consumer use), but it is still under 10% in the USA, and almost non-existent worldwide.
As far as the iPod and iTunes goes, their marketshare may eventually lead to anti-trust issues. It almost did with their DRM, and the only reason it fizzled out was because DRM was finally removed before the issues had gathered too much steam.
@Donte: You missed the point.
Using your diesel truck example, assume Exxon made their own diesel powered vehicles. Now let's assume that *only* Exxon diesel powered vehicles are able to refuel at Exxon diesel pumps. So, if someone had a diesel powered Volkswagen, they would not be able to re-fuel at Exxon, since the pump is "incompatible" with the Volkswagen. And that, would be bullshit.
That would be the equivalent to this situation. Apple is only allowing Apple branded devices to connect and sync with iTunes. They are, in fact, *deliberately* preventing non-Apple branded devices to connect and sync with iTunes, thus the problem.
If Microsoft were to *prevent* the installation of competing products on Windows (such as Firefox), not only would they be slapped with an antitrust lawsuit, but they would lose the case before the trial would even start! They can't claim that "it's their software, and they can do whatever they want with it." By law, what they have done is anti-competitive. Like Windows, iTunes is a very dominant player in the market. If one company has to abide by those conditions, then so should Apple.
@Sax25: There are lots of inaccuracies in your comment that need to be addressed.
Microsoft was bashed for INEXTRICABLY tying IE to Windows. You couldn't remove it if you wanted to. You CAN remove Safari from your Mac and use another browser if you want to. Microsoft did this to leverage their OS monopoly to push Netscape out of the browser market. It's monopoly abuse, which is illegal, and they were convicted of it (though the anemic justice departments around the world did very little about it).
Apple's use of iTunes is totally different. First, you don't have to get an iPod or iPhone. There are plenty of other (and many here would argue better) choices out there that don't require iTunes like Apple products do. It says on the box that you need to use iTunes to sync the product, so if you don't want to use iTunes, don't buy an iPod or iPhone. If you've already purchased music in iTunes, 99.5% of it can be upgraded to DRM-free music (now that the music companies have finally given in) which can go into any music ecosystem compatible with AAC, an open standard. You're not tied to iTunes. You can leave if you want to and get a Pre, for example, but Palm can't simply co-opt Apple's technology. That's IP theft.
Finally, Microsoft wants you to believe that Apple cried like a little bitch about the ads. The facts are these: the ads drew attention to Mac prices that were no longer accurate, to continue running the ads as is would have been false advertising, and Microsoft had to change the ads or face a lawsuit. Microsoft's stooge COO then misrepresented Apple's call (which likely said that they couldn't continue running the ads AS THEY CURRENTLY WERE) in order to get some much-needed good PR, and you fell for it. Apple obviously had a legitimate claim or Microsoft wouldn't have changed a damn thing. They did. And you can bet your ass that if Apple made a blatantly false claim about Microsoft products in their ads, Microsoft would have called them on that too. This whole discussion regarding these ads has been absurd, inaccurate, and exactly what Microsoft wanted.
Both Apple and Microsoft are getting what's coming to them. Look at the financials both companies just reported.
WHY DOES THE PRE WISH IT WAS AN IPHONE SO BADLY ... HEY PALM .. WRITE YOUR OWN SOFTWARE AND QUIT YOUR BITCHING
Palm has balls.
am sure yours have balls all da time. :)
The Pre is Palm's saving grace, they are not going to take Apple's crap.
"You should be refilling that popcorn bucket right about now." was one of the best post starters thus far.
Balls is right. It's one thing to tease a tiger from outside of the cage, it's another thing entirely to open the door and slap it in the face.
And yet another thing to lock the cage behind you and tell the tiger to start sharing its food.
I don't see why people are siding with Apple on this one. This would be like Microsoft saying no device but the Zune will work with Windows Media Player. Imagine the outrage that would cause.
@DizWhiz
lol no one would care, who uses Windows Media Player?
^^ wouldnt want to use itunes either....only have to use it cos of my ipod
more like Palm has no choice. If the Pre flops Palm is gone for good this time. The sad part is that even will all the attention Palm is getting from the Apple altercation Pre still doesn't sell very well and the US is still the only market that they have. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that's how you stay afloat ...
So when do we begin the anti-trust suit againt Apple? It seems like this is another case of Apple being a closed ecosystem. Palm should take their arse to court.
... and people say that Microsoft is the monopoly trying to control the world - lmao!
Don't mess with apple they know the yakuza and will make you commit suicide.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Yakuza in China?
Maybe you are referring to the Triad?
(as if I know anything whatsoever)
Oh sh*t, I think I saw Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker 'round the corner!
Go Palm!
This could get fun.
I don't know.
I'm not an Apple fan, but Apple has a shit load of money to back it up.
Palm is barley recovering from it's decline.
Maybe, just maybe; Microsoft will jump in and aid Palm.
Unfortunately Microsoft also makes a mobile OS, so they will likely wait on the sideline for Palm to do as much damage as possible, and then take over pushing for anti-trust suits when Palm passes out.
i think what apple did is a bitch move
Don't worry.
We will.
Bitch move? Wow. Well, since it's a matter of USB open standards, I suppose Apple erasing any Palm Pre attached could be defensible in some twisted way. But they're not going to do that; that would be malicious.
I mean, the fact is, there are legitimate ways to see and access the very open iTunes library; the Serato Scratch DJ software sees the music and the playlists, and accesses them within their own software, Palm will likely end up doing this too with some software that I'm sure wouldn't be difficult for them.
But this 'imitate an iPod' thing Palm is doing is really in the fuzzy unprofessional area. The Pre doesn't identify itself as a Pre, so it's sort of obvious that there's something iffy about it. They actually have customers expecting it to work, mention it as a solution, even though they have made no agreement with Apple to allow it and continue Apple's "support" of the Pre. And Palm is making an amicable agreement to get legitimate support from Apple and iTunes less and less possible with every hour they do this.
Apple is the new Big Brother. How ironic.
Apple is a licencee of Microsoft Exchange for the iPhone OS and the upcoming Snow Leopard -- they pay Microsoft for their products compatible with a Microsoft tech. Palm is using a shady work around with the Pre so that it identifies itself as an iPod. If Palm thinks that iTunes syncing is so important to their users then they should license it (like the moto ROKR) or create their own software that utilizes the iTunes library file.
@brian,
What are you talking about? how is Apple making sure only Apple manufactured devices use an Apple created program reason to call a company "Big Brother"?
Apple has always been fascist, that is nothing new. The only new thing is that they have a big enough market share in something for anyone else to care.
@ill trooper You mean like how every web browser in the world identifies itself as "Mozilla"? Seriously, identity spoofing from ("I am an IBM PC and can run MS-DOS") to MacOS X's Samba ("I am a Windows-like computer, let me see your SMB share") is nothing new in the technology world.
@pina: Do you really think they didn't try?
I bet they tried the proper way first but Apple would have none of it.
Hey, it beats UFC.
Yeah. We just need to put animations to this or something. Now that would be awesome. And there could be episodes and everything!
Apple is the new Microsoft.