Zune 4.0 software won't play nice with HDTV Media Center recordings
By Richard Lawler 
posted Aug 14th 2009 5:32PM
posted Aug 14th 2009 5:32PM
As you may or may not be aware, at least in the U.S. , and most other countries, any high definition broadcasts you snag from antenna, ClearQAM or otherwise use Dolby Digital AC-3 audio, meaning the Zune software won't be able to convert them. Current workarounds for bringing Media Center recordings on the go should still be a go, but all we can see is the missed opportunity to tie the two platforms together with easy one click transcoding support. Hopefully Microsoft still has something up its sleeve to pull together Zune and Windows 7 Media Center, but portable DVR recordings ain't it.
From what I understand it's not an issue of the device not being able to do this, it has to do with licensing or some other such legal crap :(
Additionally - The screen doesn't render HD scale (not that you could even tell if it were HD or not on a screen this size in the first place) so why would you really want to have everything in HD format anyway when that would not look any better and only take up more room?
I can see the issue since it can't transcode the videos down to the Zune HD's resolution either, meaning you just can't sync those videos. That said, pretty much everything has a SD equivalent so it shouldn't be a big issue for most people. Plus, I don't think that many people use that feature of the Zune anyway.
Because you can output at full 1280x720 to an HDTV through the Dock.
So even though the Screen can't display 1280x720, you can play video at that resolution to an external device.
Mark, maybe they would if it worked right.
I love my Zune but i hate the half assed way MS supports Media Center. It should be a standout feature and it keeps getting neglected.
Well then if it's just a matter of licensing then it's really stupid. Microsoft
is the 800lb gorilla of the industry, not some little Linux company. MS can
afford the license.
Now while generally an HD recording is not something you would want to
waste precious space on your PMP with, there's no good reason that the
Zune can't support a raw HDHR or HD-PVR recording.
Also I am at a loss regarding why MS thinks it's necessary to subject the
world to it's own PVR format for stuff that doesn't really need it.
It's probably because the licensing fee is built into the cost of a copy of Windows with MC on it. There's no way to do that with the Zune software since they give it away for free.
i can live with that.
WHAT? A REASONABLE FIRST COMMENT????
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
Hell, I don't have a tv tuner card at all, so I can definitely live with that. Not like my sister's iPod + iTunes does it anyway.
Not a problem for me
The Exclamation Mark is the one you want, folks.
Holy crap! It's the return of the Highest Ranked Cyan!
I wish Microsoft would port the Zune's now playing feature to Windows Media Center. If you haven't taken a look at the thing you should. On 1080p is a match made in a heaven.
I CARE!!!! I have a Zune AND HDTV and would like to see this functionary. Just pay the money for the license, Microsoft… Other’s pay money to you for your licenses-- quit being so cheap.
@ iJames White
wtf does you'rfe mean?
What does "Highest Ranked" mean..? And why is it blue? It's been so long since I've seen this phenomenon. This isn't like the Engadget comment system. This one seems to be working properly!
Highest ranked seems to be back, whoo!
@Orrett Junior
The standard now playing screen from the Zune Software has been added to WMC in Windows 7, where your album art fills the screen and scrolls.
There's also a secondary mode, where all of your photos scroll around on the screen and it zooms in and out on them. Pretty cool.
Video of Zune HDTV interface walkthrough:
http://vimeo.com/6096791
Appears the trolls are out today.
I can definately live with that! When is Amazon going to start having pre-orders for this thing??? That is perhaps my only gripe about this Zune HD...the goddamn wait!
amazon started taking pre-orders on thursday
This is quite impressive, Microsoft ALMOST got pulling video off the Tivo for use on the go to work! Of course Apple got this actually working half a decade ago with the first video ipod, ditto for the PSP which is also rather old now, but hey, at least MS tried right?
Bet a lot of people are going to have a ton of fun pulling shows off their Tivo, converting them on their PC, and only then exporting them hours later. That is kind of the watchword of the Microsoft side of things isn't it? Workaround?
Why people go through all these issues instead of just buying an already awesome ipod touch or iphone is beyond me. I mean look up a few stories, the iphone has a 99% satisfied rate even with ATT service which blows, why all the hate for a device that almost everyone who uses it loves?
No game, No 3rd party app = No Moolah! ;)
HA! I knew it. FAIL.
Thank you for your enlightening comment. You're so right, the iPod Touch/iPhone can totally play media center recorded HDTV, so it's "FAIL" that the zune can't. Sarcasm aside, the iPod doesn't have any compatibility with ANY of this recorded tv(yes, there are some programs that record in iPod compatible formats but those are also zune-compatible formats) so it's pretty daft to say it's "fail". In fact, as far as I know, the Zune is the only media player capable of windows media center recorded tv playback.
@Mark
Your iPod rage is incredible. You really should be harder for trolls to bait.
Sorry for off topic, but what if you got a Mac and would like the super awesome Zune software together with a Zune HD? Last time I tried it (a year ago) I was blowed away, waaaay better than grey and slowly iTunes..
Step 1: Install Windows on your Mac.
Step 2: Uninstall Mac OS.
Step 3: Install Zune Software.
Step 4: Change your pants.
Step 5: Put your junk in a box.
Step 1: Done! Just installed Windows 7, I like it.
Step 2: And then install it again, doesn't make any point
Step 3: YEP I LOVE IT, I just think MS should make a native version if I wasn't clear on my first post.
Step 4: Ah crap I actually did that before, but hey I like this game where you step-by-step tell me what to do, maybe a little too much?
Step 6: Open the box.
Step 5: This is just getting better. All my junk is now in a box.
What to do next?
Step 6: Done. Next please.
I'm a big believer in lightweight music players like Winamp, but I also REALLY love the Zune software. Its come a long way.
Its really slick, attractive, and has a surprisingly useful visual mode that shows striking images of bands (many of them), along with some scrolling info periodically.
Its hard to describe, but its awesome to have running on my 30" monitor during parties. People are always like "woah, what is that?" The iPod users are always surprised to find out its something Microsoft makes.
Unrelated, but, one more reason why MS will really benefit from having retail stores!
< STEP SYNC ERROR >
Step 7: Take your junk out of her box.
Step 8: ???
Step 9: PROFIT!
Sorry, someone had to.
The Zune software just needs a little more polish. It's nicer than the super slow and clunky MS attempts of yesteryear but there's definitely some rough edges. One literally rough edge is the weird aliasing I can sometimes see at the fonts at the top left (more obvious if you change the theme to something other than Zero). And the cover album mode is nice (look a lot like the iTunes cover art screensaver from OSX) but why can't it run full-screen? It looks ridiculous to have it maximize and have no borders except for the start bar...who thought this up? Also it'd be nice if the art scrolled or flipped or did something other than stay static. Someone did make a windows version of the iTunes cover art screensaver, definitely something to check out if you like the Zune's cover art mode.
And they really have to do something about the software needing to reload all the cover art from your folders every time it starts up, it's really ridiculous to have album art be blank until they pop in one by one as the software reads the album art. No other player does this. Why is album art not resizable either?
Hopefully Zune 4.0 fixes all this. It has potential but as it is it's not quite there with the current release.
Meh, those files take FOREVER to transcode anyway(even just for SD). I suppose it would have been useful but honestly I hadn't even thought of the possibility of using HD videos recorded from TV. Maybe next version?
If the only thing holding you back is the speed, I can tell you that my Core i7 920 (slowest one, not even overclocked) can transcode SD (720x480 MPEG-2) in like 5-6x realtime and HD in almost 0.5x realtime.
So if you really really need it, the speed is out there to do what you want.
Well I have a core 2 quad so I don't think it's my processor(although it's not an i7 :P). Could just be that the zune software does the transcoding more slowly? Or because it transcodes it and syncs it to the device? But at any rate, it would take syncing overnight to have it transcode and sync all my recorded shows to my zune back when I had the zune 80.
It kind of depends.
Do you want to convert it into a sort of "save it forever so I can watch it on the 60 TV"
format or do you just want something that will be acceptable for a device that fits into
the palm of your hand?
Transcodes for the former are slow. Transcodes for the latter are 10x faster or more.
Mark, when I tested it on a quad core with 3gb ram, it took 7 minutes to transcode and sync a one hour tv show.
Not bad in my opinion considering you could always dock and sync overnight.
it's possible you weren't CPU bound or simply had other processes running that were taking up all the clock cycles. Most likely cause of a slowdown during a transcode other than the CPU would be your RAM
Not even an issue - HDTV MCE recordings are 8GB per hour. Let alone taking 1/2 to 1/4 of your Zune HD storage, it'll take a while to copy over USB.
The thing I'm really pining for is FLAC support. I know it won't happen though.
Who the hell uses FLAC?
I do.
FLAC,FLAC,FLAC!
Unlikely to happen. It would be like Microsoft prompting users to install firefox-- FLAC, while not a competitor per se, is similar to their own lossless format. WM Lossless really is an excellent format for most people that use windows-based devices. While FLAC would be nice, it's unsurprising to see that it's not supported. Incidentlally, this is also why it's unlikely you will see Apple support it- they also have a proprietary lossless format.
Who knows, maybe one day they'll realize that having a combination of third and first party stuff is a good idea. I mean, Microsoft figured it out for the 360-- buy software support until your device takes over.
these proprietary audio formats really get on my nerves. i mean yeah WMP can play itunes's m4a files but why is it necessary for me download quicktime lite just play the files in songbird? just use FLAC. there's no stupid licensing fees (well, i don't think there are for MS and Apple's formats either) and basically any new media player software and any non-Apple/non-MS media player supports it.
You're right! Samsung, Cowon, Sandisk, and others are all supporting FLAC in many of their players. Apple is the market leader, and that won't change any time soon, but Microsoft should take notice. This is losing them money.
Zune supports WMA Lossless which is a proprietary lossless format. Zune/WMP rip directly to it and I'm sure you can get EAC to use it as an encoding engine.
@Greg N.
Those of us who want a solid, loss-less format. And its not just audiophiles. I can hear a slight difference in the encoding, and I can really here a difference between my PC (FLAC) and my Zune 30 (320kbs vbr, so I can fit almost all my content)
FLAC would be amazing, but its not happening. At least not any time soon.
Stupid question... with all these lossless formats, can't you theoretically be able to convert between them without any audio loss? Then you just have the day or 2 to mass convert all your songs, and then they are all still lossless (but not FLAC).
I'm still mad about it!
Anyone remember the Zune guy? and how he blew up at microsoft and wished he never gotten all his tattoos? I wonder what he thinks of this.
he died.
Hopefully.
He got mad because Microsoft didn't give him free stuff. I don't blame him. He made Zune users look bad anyway. :/
I don't blame Microsoft*, I mean.
Slingbox app?
This is why I will not preorder a zune HD. Why don't PMP, PVP, DAP manufacturers build a unit that allows users to install the codecs they want? (you can even charge a fee).
My guess would be because they just didn't have time and didn't think it added enough to the device to postpone it... or as another commenter said: legal issues.
Because the majority of codecs used on these devices are implemented in hardware. Software codecs require too much cpu power to run at a reasonable speed, and would eat your battery alive.
Archos does http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5/accessories.html?country=ru&lang=en&p=plugins
Note that there's only 3, and all of those have been done in hardware many times over.
Bet you the decoder hardware is already built into the unit, and those are just drivers.
Note that there's only 3, and all of those have been done in hardware many times over.
Bet you the decoder hardware is already built into the unit, and those are just drivers.
Six times now, eventually engadget will accept my comment.
Step 6: Yes. Next please.
Just pay the man Microsoft. Pay them the licesncing fee to play AC3 on the Zune Microsoft. It just seems like such a glaring omission that it has to come down to licesncing.
You know...you could just stop posting text with these stories.
I'm fine with just pictures until the 15th.
I'll just stare at them until the point gets across, or my drool stains my clothes.
Thats not the point. Anybody who has any of those files already has the power to transcode them in a reasonable amount of time. I'll be honest I could careless if they even encode the audio to WMA Pro or just plain old WMA. It just seems this thing is becoming less and less "HD". Yes I know AC3 is not "HD" but seriously.
so do you plan on recording tv shows and putting them on your zune? Do you use windows media center at all? do you do all this and not have the ability to find software that changes file formats for you?
It might be nice for the Zune software to do it, but even 3.0, you have to change the file formats of videos as it is. None of this affects the HD they announced - putting a file on the zune, docking it, and watching it on an HDTV in 720p format.
It also doesn't affect the HD Radio thing. So really, this has no bearing on how 'HD' this device is, at all.
handbrake will fix you up, if you have the time.
You've got to be kidding me!! I just ordered an ATI digital cable tuner card 2 hours ago. There goes my plans for a WMC/Zune HD/Xbox360 dvr setup. They need to fix this!
Can someone tell me again what we even need Zune 4.0 software for? Why can't we just use Windows Media Player 12 and Windows Media Center for all this? Maybe they should just bring back Portable Media Centers. I've still got a Toshiba Gigabeat S60 with PMC software and I love that I can use Windows Media Player to sync all my music/pics/movies and tv with it.
not a big deal for me, i don't use my computer to record things anyway, DVR comes standard with cable where i live...
I'll still buy one but a little shine is off the Zune HD. If all things other than capacity are equal between the 16GB model and the 32GB model, I certainly won't need the 32GB model given this news. I doubt I'll go to the trouble to transcode the HDTV shows that I would have transferred to the Zune had it been able to play the content.
I'm waiting for a Zune phone to run an OS half as slick as this. Windows Mobile looks ridiculous compared to this.
When Apple TV got an update that supported AC3, it took HB a short amount of time to put out a version that supported AC3 passthrough. HB can mix down but it won't be 5.1. I remember that HB's only delay came because it was trying to confirm how Apple was supporting 5.1. Mixed down is still better than no support.
So it wont support protected DVR-MS in HD because of the audio stuff (AC3) ? Well thats hardly a problem because Zune wont playback in HD anyway. Yes MS should have made it compatible so the least you can do is view your recordings on the go, HD or not but not a big deal.
I don't blame Microsoft*, I mean.
Looks like the comments system still has a way to go......
Nice, with the bayside and bloc party music choice on it!
I have been overzealous about buying the Zune ever since leaks. Additionally, posts on EngadgetHD were certain Microsoft would be reforming their whole structure, integrating products together. Power to the consumer! My house is currently being wired and rebuilt around Windows 7 Media Center + 4 xbox extenders. I cocked my pistol and was read.y to plop on this pre-order... But somehow this $300 doesnt feel quite like the same $300 anymore
You're a dirty dirty man...
says the guy who is a fan of skin... :)
isn't kind of a hassle to cap hdtv from a cable or satellite source anyway? i think it something to do with having the tv tuner in your htpc being recognized by the cable/satellite company, but the tuner cards are only sold to oems or something. so basically the only hdtv recordings you would have are from local broadcast stations. i think this fact makes the lack of support for hdtv with ac3 less of big deal although it would have been nicer if MS included it. hopefully a firmware update change support.
Oooh man! That's pretty crap that it doesn't have AC3 support... Most 5.1 videos are encoded in AC3, so that really sucks for audio buffs such as myself.. No DTS support I can understand, but no AC3 is a bit silly, considering the fact they're really pushing this HDTV connection feature.
They really need to make the Zune compatible for Mac OS X so that they can open their market to more customers...
It should be noted that in the Power Pack 3 Beta for Windows Home Server, there is an option to auto transfer any selected (or all) recordings to your WHS "archive". Within the options you can also select an option to encode a copy of the transferred recording for a Zune. Right now the option states the resolution would be 720x480, but I can see them increase this to 720P fairly soon.
So the bottom line is that while the Zune can't play native WTV, there may be some MS provided automation to create a Zune version in tandem or quickly after a recording is done. Since this is embedded in the MC interface, I'm thinking there are some positive things in store for integration.
The reason for this is simple: MSFT was too cheap to pay the additional licensing to Dolby for "transcode rights."
So what makes this HD? The supported video profiles are not HD. It cannot sync to HD recordings. Seriously. WTF? It's no more "HD" than an upconverting DVD player.
That's what i was talking about the other day. I really hope that Zune needs more time to tweek their UI and make it AMAZING, but as long as us consumers are left wanting more from the device, to me it's just another apple product.
Guess that rules out any native Mac support. Damn. It's not a huge problem, but it does mean I get to copy my library of nearly 2500 songs and hundreds of videos over to my Vista tower, and all of my external drives are formatted for Mac-only (video scratch disks). Whatever, I'll forget all about it once I have the HD in my grubby hands and I drool all over it. It better come with a cleaning cloth or something.
-MD33
nobody cares about justice anymore around these days ding ling ling ling ling ling
This would be the one feature that would make me add a Zune to my gadget family. But if someone knows how to get media center recorded content to a iPod friendly one, let me know.
When the new software comes out (or if you want to do it now) give
MCEBuddy(.com) a try. It transcodes DVR-MS files into several formats
automagically. It runs in the background, and can transcode DVR-MS
files into several H.264 in different format qualities, and WMV in
different format qualities. Previously, I'd been using it to make my
recordings into the DivX format.
It's customizable to sort series into different folders, delete
recordings after transcoding, convert between specified hours, and
have two separate conversion folders for different transcoding
destinations.
A beta version is in the works to do .wtv files for windows 7, as
well.
This is where Apple kills Microsoft: integration. Get your shit together, Redmond.
What is the integrated Apple solution which records digital quality, high resolution television that can be synced to the iPod touch and be played on a HDTV?