Apple, Palm hear privately from USB-IF on iTunes spat, involvement unlikely (update: the Forum's not pleased)
By Chris Ziegler 
posted Sep 22nd 2009 9:46PM
posted Sep 22nd 2009 9:46PM
Update: Digital Daily has come away with a very, very different story from the actual leaked communication, and it turns out that the USB-IF has actually sided against Palm on two different fronts. First, the Forum has told Palm that it doesn't see how blocking Palm's Vendor ID from accessing iTunes violates its policies; and second -- this might be the big one -- Palm's actually riled up the Forum by saying that it'll be using Apple's Vendor ID on the Pre going forward. It wants a clarification of Palm's "intent" within a week, saying such a move would be contrary to the rules and regs set out for the proper use of USB. At this point the question becomes, how many companies and industry bodies is Palm willing to piss off to keep iTunes working exactly the way it wants?
Screw both. WinMo FTW!
kidding right?
Please... please be joking.
Idiots rarely kid.
Its apple's right to not allow Paln to use their iTunes.
Why should Palm be allowed to ride the coattails of apple? They shouldn't. They are suppossed to come up with their own desktop software for synching their product to our computers.
This is apples intellectual property and I'm behind them 100% on this.
@Quantumphysics
Riding the coattails of apple? Why is getting a product to interface with another companies software considered riding the coattails rather then trying to make a good product? I'm glad there are people out there trying to make it so that I don't own ALL apple gear, or all MS gear. Nothing wrong with allowing consumers decide what works for them and allowing cross platform access to accomplish this.
ljm
Apple's strength is that their equiptment is tied perfectly to their software. They regularly update and support all of their software automatically. Why should another company be able to make a product that gets to use the apple interface WITHOUT PAYING MONEY TO APPLE? That's infringement and its illegal.
truth be told, despite its abilities, the Pre is a product that isn't as desireable as the iPhone. People will never flock to it in mass and as far as I'm concerned, apple should not give up even one inch of market space to the Pre.
this isn't the same thing as devices being able to connect to windows. Windows is the pre imminent OS for virtually all desktop computers. Therefore MS has no choice but to allow other vendors to make their products work with it. Not so with apple. Its their choice what works with their software and what doesn't. If you don't like it, take your money elswhere.
So if I want to write and distribute a program that runs on Windows, Microsoft should be able to specifically lock me out if I refuse to pay them royalties?
I am, after all, using Microsoft's interface and using their software to sell my own.
Of course the idea is completely absurd. Syncing a Pre with iTunes is not abusing Apple's software. It's not misusing any Apple hardware. There's absolutely no reason for it.
Interoperability shouldn't be a luxury.
@Quantumphysics
I don't like it and that is EXACTLY why I take my money elsewhere. I cannot wait for the day the Apple fad blows over and everyone realizes how shitty it is to have spent all of that money and to be locked into such a closed ecosystem.
@ljm: yes riding he coattails of Apple. There is nothing wrong with Palm interfacing with iTunes. But Palm using another devices ID to fool the software into thinking it is one of it's own is completely wrong. That's like me stealing your identity and using it to get into your excluding gym membership or something else. So yes, riding on the coattails. And yes it is exactly like that. Palm is faking itself by telling iTunes it is an iPod. In real life we call that identity theft. And this world we call it a violation of intellectual property. Regardless ... It's still wrong.
@ chcox
" But Palm using another devices ID to fool the software into thinking it is one of it's own is completely wrong. That's like me stealing your identity and using it to get into your excluding gym membership or something else. So yes, riding on the coattails. And yes it is exactly like that."
Oh really? You're right. Just like Apple lying about Microsoft Exchange device encryption
http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/11/iphone-os-3-1-enforcing-exchange-device-encryption-only-support/
As Mark Anderson would say, "Kettle. Black?".
No one in this fight has ever used anyone else's intellectual property, called it theirs, and sold it have they?
**Cough*BSD*cough**
As far as I'm concerned, this battle is silly, and it just makes Apple and Palm look stupid. Tit for tat never has a winner.
@quantumphysics
To paraphrase you ... [iTunes] is the pre imminent [software] for virtually all [digital music purchases]. By your own logic, then, they should let Palm in.
@ Scabby, you idiot. BSD wasn't stolen and repackaged by Apple- go relearn your history. On top of that, Apple releases HEAPS of improvements and new features to the community as opensource (just recently: Grand Central tech...).
Look, Jon and ljm, it's not really as deep as you're making it... The only thing that Palm has to do is write their own client software that reads the playlists and song info that iTunes uses in an VERY OPEN and TOTALLY USABLE data file - it's how the DJ software programs do it, it's how the Blackberry client transfers playlists, it's how Palm could do it too, if they weren't obsessed with things like 'address book' through Facebook, 'music organization' through iTunes...
Palm is obviously a very capable company and they should just take the time to write their own syncing client - which they probably have been doing behind closed doors since the release of the Pre. My theory is that they didn't have the time to build a solid and full-featured stand-alone program before launch, and will release one to full fanfare soon. That's what I hope, anyway - this is getting embarrassing to watch.
I honestly think that apple is making a stupid decision here. Why not let Palm use itunes and have all those Pre users buy all the music from apple instead of amazon or others. I could understand if it was just to sync/organize ur library but itunes is a standalone software that has uses besides ipod/iphone. also does Palm even advertise anything about the palm working with itunes ?
@ill trooper: They wouldn't even need to write their own if they found some other sufficiently good sync app and licensed or bought it.
@kamilatl: Apple shouldn't have to be responsible for making sure someone else's device works safely and reliably with each release of their own software, unless they knowingly and deliberately take on that responsibility themselves. Besides, if the Pre can play M4A audio, it can use iTunes Store music.
I couldn't care less about iTunes - I find drag-and-drop easy enough. However this sounds like this decision is setting some precidents that may not work out well for Apple. For intance, Microsoft is launching it's new ZuneHD. How about blocking all Apple devices from connecting to Windows to go along with the Zune launch?
@Barky Its not even remotely the same thing. Here is what would be the same thing, If palm all of a sudden decides to start tricking the Zune software into syncing with it, MS would patch it in a HEARTBEAT. MS does not let ANY other device sync with the zune software AT ALL. Just because its apple you get your panties all in a bunch, but MS is doing the EXACT same thing. Also for MS to block all ipods from syncing with windows would be one of the worst ideas ever. They might as well just come to your house and give you a Macbook cause thats all it would accomplish, is sending people over to apple where their device works just fine.
If you can read, you would have read the article and taken from it that what palm is doing IS NOT OK with the USB IF. IF you didnt take that from the article then you cannot read.
@Barky: For one, it's not the same thing since iTunes is what allows the iPod to sync, not the underlying OS. Two, blocking USB devices on the OS level might very well be a violation to the rules and regulations of the USB-IF. Third, disabling Apple's devices on Windows with the Zune launch would result in anti-trust cases against Microsoft in the US, Canada, Europe, and other markets across the world. Lastly, there would be massive consumer backlash for such a move (80% of music players are iPods), and the last thing Microsoft needs is yet another reason not to upgrade from Windows XP.
From reading the article/forums, it's pretty clear that Palm is violating the implemenation guidelines.
That being said, I wish we lived in a world where said rules didn't exist, and the workarounds weren't hacky and limited in functionality. If a device (be it Pre, iPod/Phone, ZuneHD) can play the media format, it would be nice if the end user could opt to use whichever desktop software they prefer, without proprietary store crap and other artificially imposed limitations.
@ Sabi
this was posted from my iphone. Need I say more?
Funny Mike.
I am posting from my Palm Pre.
Should we duel?
Funny Sabi
Since when does it matter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt-NvcuDVBc
Sure Sabi... Go for it. As long as you aren't expecting any phone calls while using data features...
""Sure Sabi... Go for it. As long as you aren't expecting any phone calls while using data features...""
hahahhahhahahahahahahahhahahah ....... hahahhahahahhahahahahaha
i enjoy cat and mouse, but i don't enjoy it when Palm is looking like Tom, and Apple seems to be Jerry.
Hopefully the tables will turn i enjoy itunes support because of the smart playlists and what not, not to mention that all my music is organized on a Mac, and i cant figure out Song Bird for the life of me, so i'd rather use itunes.
personally i hate all forms of music organizers/ players/ media libraries out there... i guess i should go make my own
oh and we need a new way of tagging songs....id3 is getting outdated and is missing some key info necessary for organization
I agree completely with you. I don't particularly care for one over another but I know how iTunes works and smart playlists are fantastic. Besides all of that, it has been the platform I have used for 6 or 7 years now and I don't want to change, which is one of the bigger reasons I bought a Pre - so that I could stay within the apple ecosystem.
I just want to see palm win this one out, they are completely justified in wanting to sync to itunes and power to them using apple IDCs if it means that the end user has more options.
Both of you realize that if palm would just license one of the freaking hundreds of pieces of software the sync to the itunes XML file properly, you know like RIM did just recently it wouldnt be an issue. Palm is doing it wrong, there is no other way about it.
Complaining to the USB-IF about your shady practices and then getting beaten down pretty much proves they are in the wrong. Why dont you call MS and ask them if they will let your Pre sync with the Zune Software?
Good call on the iTunes-Pre photoshop. Just what this fight needed.
A grave and costly mistake for a student to harass the teacher.
Don't they teach that in school?
Yes, but only in ninja school.
If the group doesn't penalize Palm for abusing another licensee's ID information, then whats the point? Rules without consequences for breaking the rules are useless.
Palm shoudl do the right thing by its customers and build their own syncing solution like RIM has done for the Blackberry that works with the iTunes XML file. You can still manage the music in iTunes that way AND its supported!
To be fair, as I remember, Apple broke the rules first by using the vendor id to block functionality, rather than just as identification.
You have it backwards. It was Palm that filed the complaint, not Apple.
So it's ok to hack into the itunes library via software....but not ok to have itunes recognize the device????
What kind of crazy world do we live in, when people actually want software to be restricted to certain hardware..... The reason microsoft was succesfull because it was open to all hardware!!!!
@ minorthing4 --
but you forget the market share in your little business lesson...
iTunes = #1, iPod = #1 --- by VERY wide margins.
Having an open hardware business model worked for MS to drive sales of software and promote wide compatibility/adoption...
Apple's model is to push it's hardware with unique software solutions designed to perfect compliment that hardware... why is that so hard for people to get.
Apple sells the total package (whether you like it or whether total means something different to you is another story) across a diverse but narrow product line while MS has chosen to make jack-of-all-trades/master-of-none operate on nearly everything under the sun. Different strategies, different results -- totally different intents and purposes.
You know what else? I think Apple enjoys being the underdog, too. However, as it relates to the Pre -- they are clearly on top and consistent in their business model whereas Palm just looks like the bratty kid that always cries and then gets beat up for being a poor sport.
Hah, I dont see why you would bother using the iTunes XML if you weren't going to sync with iTunes. You might as well sync with Windows Media Player. Its just as good at managing media. The Zune player is better, for that matter.
Windows Media Player? Are you kidding? We have left the 90's already a decade!
@iPriest, actually for the Pre Windows Media Player works really well. I've been using it for a while. I mainly use Pandora so I only have like 2gb of music on my phone.
Drag and drop devices should work with any syncing software. I don't know what's wrong with iTunes, their system sounds horrible for handling drag and drop devices.
Mark:
It's not against the rules to not work with other vendor's devices. There are standard classes like HID for devices that are supposed to all work the same regardless of vendor. Neither the iPod nor the Pre is one of those.
On the other hand, it is against the rules to use someone else's vendor ID.
I would love to see the Pre work in iTunes, but spoofing someone else's ID can really screw up a vendor's ability to support their own products. It's not right to do it.
@krizoitz
I agree that having Palm implement its own syncing solution is a good idea but I would prefer it if they would simply do a deal with Apple such that the WebOS devices can sync with iTunes like an iPod/iPhone without needing additional software and Apple provides support for this interface. This would likely cost Palm quite a lot of money but the solution is most ideal for its customers if they do indeed wish to continue using iTunes. Further, they might be able to get support for iTunes protected formats used for video so that WebOS devices could play TV Shows and movies downloaded from the iTunes Store.
Both the Pre and Pixi look like really good and Palm really should make their own syncing software if they haven't already. Are the only ways to sync via drag and drop and iTunes?
They should just come out with their own software but using iTunes is so much easier as many people have it and have their music organized in it. It would be annoying to have more than 1 app that does the same thing.
Looks as though Palm are on their own on this one. Best move for Palm would be to let this one go and make their own syncing software, no point in looking like a desperate stalker by showing up where they're not wanted.
Exactly. Palm has seriously been doing their homework and creating awesome devices and an entirely new OS.
If they can make WebOS... why can't they make music library software???
Maybe they are making something, but this allows them to buy time to make it better instead of releasing it without much testing. never know.
Because guys, what sounds better when the guy at the store is tying to sell this to you
"What about music?"
"Yeah,all you have to do it plug it into itunes, just like you would for your iPod"
"Really?? That's cool! I think i'm going to buy this phone now"
or
"Well, it comes with this software and you put your music into that and then you can sync your phone"
"oh"
it's a selling point!
This isn't going to end well...
free publicity is good.
In the meantime, I'm sure Palm will start work on their own solution. But I'm sure all their devs are tied up with making WebOS up to par with the iPhone in speed and usability.
This is a higher priority, no doubt.
I would have thought Apple would be busier trying to catch up with the webOS's multi tasking capabilities myself.
Just went from 3GS to Pre. Speed is an issue. It's noticeably lagging.
No video camera is an issue & some of the refinements of the iPhone just aren't there (no podcasting solution? come on...)
Plus how can I go on w/o my Chipotle app? Oh. It wasn't so bad after all.
I do like the size & the LED flash is very welcome.
We'll see.
And I would have thought Apple would be busier trying to actually ease up on all the hardware/software restrictions of iPhone OS myself.
@Anthony
drPodder
http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/prepod
@Anthony
drPodder
http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/prepod
@Anthony
drPodder
http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/prepod
Sorry for the spam. Engadget's reply system still stinks.
Multitasking is worthless when everything moves at glacial speeds. Sorry, disillusion yourself all day long, but everyone i know who has a pre never keeps more then 2 cards open due to the fact the phone eats the battery and the performance is dismal.
I wish Apple would be creative with its Cat & Mouse game. Here are some suggestions:
1. Selectively change song lyrics. "Love Stinks" by the J. Giles Band could be "Palm Stinks".
2. Play all Beatles songs backwards.
3. Add fart noises to audiobooks.
4. Change album art to gay porn.
or better yet... straight porn.
Doesn't the Pre work with DoubleTwist?
better support on windows than mac though so far.
IMHO apple sees palm (and that good ole WebOS) as a genuine THREAT or they wouldn't care
I own a Palm Pre, and I could not care less whether or not I have the ability to sync via iTunes.
Plug in the USB, drag and drop music. Done.
Amen to that, Derek. I wish I could do the same on my iPhone and get rid of suck-ass iTunes.
Palm should realize this too. Seems like they are wasting their time trying to get this to work. Not many people care, and most are savy enough to just go to the itunes directory and drop their non-drm music onto their pre. There is the playlist compatibility which might be important to some though.
Agreed!!
This goes on because it's generating publicity for Palm (i.e. This page).
There's no such thing as bad publicity.
Why don't you tell that to Palm so Palm will stop harassing Apple.
Palm has lowered their forecast and it looks desperate, IMO.
i absolutely agree. i dont understand why anyone would use itunes for any media player EXCEPT ipods/iphones, quite honestly. its fine to listen/stream music to on your computer, but as far as transferring to a non-apple device, its totally stupid.
X2. If someone is an apple iTunes fanboy they would have an ipod. Palm is for us non fan boys, who use either drag and drop or WMP11, seems like a pointless battle. When i get my Hero next month, i hope MS is not as childish as Apple and i get to sync with WMP.
Your opinion is valid, though in the minority.
Well said Derek. iTunes doesn't own the world of music. If someone chooses a Palm Pre over an iPhone then that's up to them, and you would think rather than autonomously buying an iPhone they have considered what they're purchasing and that it might not work with iTunes.
I have an iPhone and will soon be upgrading to a Pre, and I know it's probably not gonna work with iTunes, and I don't care.
Its easy enough to organise music with iTunes and/or other music player and then just drag/drop, the simplest way to get music on a device.
Meanwhile, I'm stuck with 5gbs worth of music on my Pre that I can't find anywhere...
Nice
Can't Palm just use the money they're spending on this to get some development team to make a superior system that's Palm-exclusive? Shouldn't be too difficult...
If it was easy to come up with a superior alternative to iTunes, I think someone like Microsoft would have already done it. Palm doesn't have enough money left over after developing the Pre to get the grass cut at their corporate headquarters much less develop some new groundbreaking alternative to iTunes.
@.Mileslong have you ever used the zune software? at least 3xs better than iTunes. The reason palm wants the pre to work with iTunes is iTunes has the digital music marketplace cornered. So because most people already get all there music on iTunes why would you not try to make it so your product is easier to use by working with iTunes.
@Clayton Agreed, im an iphone owner and mac user and itunes user, but the Zune software is absolutely better. Of course at the same time, MS would NEVER EVER EVER let palm sync with the Zune software.
Looks like all the comments that are highly-ranked come from Palm Pre users like myself. Enjoy everyone, webOS sure is sweet!!!
Small correction.. enjoy your Pre before Palm goes belly up in 2010. ;)
Or from Windows fanboys, they never have touched a mac but know everything about it and vomit just by reading the word Apple.
Why doesn't Palm just create their own software? I can see why Apple doesn't want their software being used with non-apple devices. They worked hard for years to keep improving their software to make it what they think is the best. I wouldn't want someone else taking all of my hard work and just using it with their own device.
For me it's not even the fact that Palm is using itunes, it's more the fact that they're doing so without permission.
Uh... Only because Apple wouldn't grant them access...
Sooo because Apple did not let them they are right to just use it anyway? No means no. If someone tells me no I can't have something I'm not going to steal it.
Except what are they stealing?
If that's stealing, so is OpenOffice.org, for deciphering MS Office file formats without paying Microsoft.
We can all agree the Palm has to do what every other smart phone is capable of, which is to sync info from the computer to their device using software they created for their product. To not have this from the get go really means the product was not ready to market.
@trumpston, and can we stop the blathering of multitasking, all Iphone and iPod touch do it. Maybe the ability to run multi 3rd party apps are being blocked but the iPhone OS is and does run multiple apps at one time. You can browse the web, listen to music, and recieve a call.
Next time you are on your Pre using the phone, try browsing the Internet at the same time and tell me you are multitasking.
I'm not hating on the Pre, it's better than the crappy winmo devices out there. Given time this my be great in it's own right. But for now, Palm just code the syncing software for both Mac and Windows.
I tried this only opera could not be installed on my iphone, later I went to use safari when I closed Rhapsody my music stopped playing. I tried to call apple support but AT&T could not be found.
iTunes is a fantastic program, and best of all; it's free. But in terms of its use with mp3 players, it was never really free because you had to have an ipod or iphone to work with it. Since apple is making great sales off their ipods and iphones, they can afford to keep updating this program for free. If you don't need an ipod or iphone anymore, what's the point for apple to continue to distribute this product for free? No, that's actually a bit of a slippery slope, but the point is apple shouldn't do all the hard work just so you can buy a Palm Pre.
Then again, people will still continue to buy iPods, and Apple will be fine. Apple probably just doesn't want the Palm pre to step on its iPhone sales. For some, iTunes integration is a big factor for purchasing an iPhone (i guess). Me personally, I don't care how this turns out. As long as iTunes continues to be a free program, I'm cool.
iTunes is NOT a fantastic program. for larger libraries, it becomes painfully slow and puts a strain on even modest hardware configurations. managing and organizing larger libraries is also a headache..
If Apple doesn't want my business as a iTouch and Pre owner then fine. I'll buy my music elsewhere. I say Palm should give up on the iTunes syncing and partner with a company who does want the $$ from Pre owner music sales.
The Android OS phones - the G1 and the myTouch/Ion/G2/Magic - actually allow you to purchase music from Amazon on the phone over the WiFi *or* 3G/GPRS/EDGE connection AND you can copy the music - DRM FREE - to your computer if you hook your Android phone up to your laptop with the USB cable - Mac or PC. You can manage your music with whatever program you want. It's taking a while, but I think the Android OS will rise to - or close to - the top.
Oh yeah, Blake, ALL that money just rolling in from... Who again? The small subset of people who (1) own a Pre and who (2) actually buy downloadable music?
The "$$" won't actually add up to much of an incentive for anyone. It doesn't even add up to much for the industry leader, Apple. Besides, buying music isn't the problem - you can buy music on iTunes and drag it on to your Pre. This is about Palm needing to offer its customers a legit program or client that syncs playlists and music files, like Blackberry has created for its customers.
"Palm's actually riled up the Forum by saying that it'll be using Apple's Vendor ID on the Pre going forward. "
They can do that!?!
WOW, I'm going to give up on Palm if they do a dick move like that.
I was under the impression that they were already doing it, and that was the first workaround they did after the Pre was blocked for the first time?
yeah I don't know what it is exactly that they're doing. I don't think they've used Apple's vendor ID yet, though.
@Jacob - What about Apple's dick move of intentionally breaking the Pre sync? There's no call for that, they could just allow Palm's vendor ID to sync with iTunes, but instead they choose to be jerks about it and only allow their software to work with their hardware. It's actually kinda stupid if you ask me. I've started buying my music from the Amazon MP3 store because 1) a lot of times it is cheaper, 2) I can use whatever software I please to manage my music and 3) I don't have to worry about PAYING AGAIN for MUSIC I ALREADY BOUGHT through iTunes because I want it DRM-FREE.