We've seen some dark, dark panels in our day, but Panasonic's next-generation IPS-Alpha has us all sorts of hot and bothered. Unlike Pioneer's plasmas of yesteryear, the prototype seen here at CEATEC has wide angle viewing down to an art, and the image quality was simply stunning. Fast moving objects slid in with nary a jagged edge in sight, while the production unit on the left produced a noticable and continual blur. When portraying a pitch black background, it's easy to see just how much darker the IPS-Alpha panel was compared to the next best thing. Have a peek at the video below for a more personal peek, and look forward to us prying out some sort of price and release estimate when the company shows this again at CES. You will have that information at CES, right Panny?
Wicked looking, it's the new bleeding edge stuff like this that looks AWESOME that makes me unable to put my 57" projection set out to pasture just yet.
It's easy to have deeper black when you have a supershiny glossy panel next to one with matte anti-reflection coating... Not saying the technology isn't sound, just saying it's a flawed side-by-side...
If you've ever looked at any of Panasonics TVs in the last 2 years, you'll notice that they frequently have less glare then all the other brands of Plasma. Seriously. People have been saying plasmas have "glare" for years, and it's about time people realized Panasonic has revolutionized plasmas, and the previous glare issue is not gone. Sure, Panasonics may have some reflection, but put any Panasonic plasma next to any Samsung 6 series and above, and you'll see the difference: the Panasonic has much less glare then Samsung, or for that matter, Sony, or Vizio.
and the brightness has been cranked on the left one. when i do that with my pana plasma i lose blacks as well. i always love how, to demostrate their new models, companies make their old ones look like crap when they weren't
IPS generally has very good reproduction of colors. But if the pricepoint is comparable to IPS-panels in regulard computer-LCD's, then no thanks for now.
You're right, it's a pretty cheap trick. Firstly the frame on the right looks matte and not gloss, and the one on the left is the other way round. That way you see an optical illusion.
Not only that, but because the matte diffuses the reflection, it's probably not that less reflective than the glossy one, but the diffusing gives it the slightly off-black effect.
hehe, you can use that tv to watch the other tv in the back, why do they still make glossy screens its so damn annoying when your trying to watch tv in the middle of the day.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I actually turned around because my PC is at an almost 160 degree angle from my Kuro just to make sure it still had great viewing angle. I'm happy to report everything is still functioning properly.
This is an old trick. Under glaring lights a matte screen with wash out and the glossy screen will have a ton of reflections (as seen here).
Then the salesman will push the glossy screen saying ignore the reflections you won't have those at home, but you will have the better blacks.
But in reality that is BS. In normal home lighting the washout on the matte screen goes away so the blacks equalize, but every little thing reflects off gloss unless you are sitting in a dark cave.
I have a semi-matte screen on my 5 series Samsung. It is about perfect. I don't get any reflections or washout unless I have a light shining directly on it.
I know how bad glossy would look because it has a glossy frame and the frame is annoying as hell as it is full of reflections all the time.
Why do they give us annoying glossy frames? No need for that at all. Matte screen and matte frame next time. I may yet take the sandpaper to mine.
I agree, not a fan of glossy bezels/frames. Sure, they look good when the TV is turned off, but they are just too damn distracting when you're trying to watch something and your eyes keep going to the light reflecting of the bezel.
I've got a 32" Sony KDL-32L5000 in the bedroom that employs the matte bezel and it doesn't suffer from the glare of the Samsung it replaced. And it still looks good turned off.
I have been waiting to pick up a Panasonic plasma for the living room for quite some time, but my wife has not given me the go-ahead yet...unfortunately, their plasmas also have glossy bezels, so maybe if I hold off long enough their next models will use matte (and then maybe my wife will realize that we NEED a new TV).
I don't doubt that Panasonic is pushing the black envelope, but its refreshing to see that everyone here recognizes the not-so-subtle glossy vs matte comparison. I would love to see another video, this time in a dimly lit room, with a high-end LCD, a (not in production any more) Pioneer plasma and one of the new Panasonic sets. THAT would be interesting.
Nope, you're not the only one. See Snowdog's comments and my response to him above.
I absolutely agree with you. Maybe one day TVs won't even have bezels (or bezels so thin that you barely notice them) and it will just look like a floating panel design. Or they can just replace the reflective material with matte and call it a day.
And to be clear, I am only referring to the bezels, not the panels here. For some reason, I actually prefer glossy to matte when it comes to screens.
Great to see others noticed the glossy vs. matte difference. It took about 2 seconds. Kind of damages Darren Murphy's credibility as an expert. Of course shame on Panasonic for creating an apples and oranges comparison side by side. Now if someone could figure out how to make a matte finish look as good as glossy that would be something.
The point isn't the glossy screen versus the matte finish but rather the technology behind the surface. People keep focusing on the whole glossy screen thing rather than the underlying tech that makes the IPS-Alpha tech work. Maybe Panasonic should have presented it with two matte finishes or two glossy finishes so the easily distracted among us could focus on what's actually happening here.
It Mostly Illusion! the TV on the left has a matte screen and and dark frame which makes the image look darker while the TV on the right has a glossy screen (which alone makes the colours look darker) and it also had a lighter frame which makes the image look darker :)
Admittedly, i dont think that accounts for the difference totally, but it makes it look better than it actually is :)
This article makes absolutely no sense. First, there is also no mention of whether the panels shown are LCD or Plasma. IPS is LCD technology not Plasma. Implying that the Pioneer plasma does not have wide viewing angles and that an LCD does makes me question what the heck this reviewer is talking about. Pretty sad when Engadget has writers who know nothing about the technology they are reviewing. Like the other readers, I also noticed the difference in frames on the panels. Also the matte finish on one screen and glossy screen on the other doesn't help the comparison. Would need to see these in a dark room with no reflections to really compare black levels.
John if you are so smart you should realize that while IPS technology was originally developed for LCD's, Panasonic has adopted the technology for use in it's plasma displays.
OK Brett since you are so smart, do a Google search and you will get zero hits for IPS relating to plasma panels. How can a plasma have In Plane Switching and alignment of crystals. So unless you know something the rest of us don't or work directly for Panasonic's technology development department, please provide a link where Panasonic talks about adapting IPS to Plasma. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you can prove your assertion.
Thanks for the link burkey. However, I have never seen a plasma television with as matte a finish as the one on the left. If you go here: http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2009/10/07/panasonic-shows-off-next-generation-ips-alpha-panels-at-ceatec/ Crave says it is an LCD panel with a glossy screen - which is the trend now (Samsung) making them look like a plasma. I have a 5.5 year old plasma and the extreme off angle is as bright and clear as straight on viewing. Granted it was the most expensive plasma out there at the time, but come on. On the other hand I have had some of the worst experiences with off angle viewing on many newer LCDs (as they crank up the brightness) - 10 times worse. I still find it hard to believe that there is no press release from Panasonic talking about adapting IPS to Plasma. Can't find any mention of plasma on this site either: http://www.ips-alpha.co.jp/en/index.html So until I see a press release from Panasonic and not some ill-informed copy-cat blogger, my bet is that it is an LCD.
The author of the article seems confused. Plasmas don't have viewing angle problems. Look at one from near 180 degrees and there's no color distortion. LCDs on the other hand tend to have viewing angle problems. Older IPS panels have a purple shift for blacks when viewed from the side, but I guess this panel fixes that?
Well whatever it is I hope the 2010 plasmas use the same finishes they have this year, gorgeous sets.
The April 2009 Panasonic show had the following slide which shows they're intending on getting out an 8mm plasma in 2010 with true infinite contrast using the new NeoPDPeco panels which were not features on any of this year's models - this is the panel designed in conjunction with Pioneer Kuro technology.
The percentage of electronics at the end of their lives which were recycled.
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posted Oct 6th 2009 6:46AM
Wicked looking, it's the new bleeding edge stuff like this that looks AWESOME that makes me unable to put my 57" projection set out to pasture just yet.
It's easy to have deeper black when you have a supershiny glossy panel next to one with matte anti-reflection coating... Not saying the technology isn't sound, just saying it's a flawed side-by-side...
If you've ever looked at any of Panasonics TVs in the last 2 years, you'll notice that they frequently have less glare then all the other brands of Plasma. Seriously.
People have been saying plasmas have "glare" for years, and it's about time people realized Panasonic has revolutionized plasmas, and the previous glare issue is not gone.
Sure, Panasonics may have some reflection, but put any Panasonic plasma next to any Samsung 6 series and above, and you'll see the difference: the Panasonic has much less glare then Samsung, or for that matter, Sony, or Vizio.
That's great, but doesn't change anything about the side-by-side comparison pictured above... :)
Yes, what the hell.
The new one could double as a mirror. Jesus!
Also, I would like to see if its darker than the kuro
The only crisp detail I see is the reflected items.
and the brightness has been cranked on the left one. when i do that with my pana plasma i lose blacks as well. i always love how, to demostrate their new models, companies make their old ones look like crap when they weren't
It has got a glossy film over it, no wonder the black looks more.. er.. black. The same thing they've done on laptops, where is the news?
I'll take the matte one, thanks. Just can't stand glossy screens, hopefully there will be matte OLEDs...
It does appear quite black though, IPS is LCD, right?
Yes, IPS is an LCD-technology. Others are TN (the cheapest) and MVA (better contrast, but not best color).
If it's that much faster, it'd be pretty sweet if it could do true 120Hz update for 3D.. but for the LOVE OF GOD make it MATTE....
If they could do that, plus give me tri-color LED backlights, 1920x1200 resolution, and a 12-bit LUT... I'd be in love!
IPS generally has very good reproduction of colors. But if the pricepoint is comparable to IPS-panels in regulard computer-LCD's, then no thanks for now.
That mirror? I love its blacks but I don't want to watch into the mirror when I'm watching TV. Mirror is more annoying than non-black black.
I agree. I will gladly give up a little "blackerness" to avoid the incredibly distracting mirror effect!
I'll take one of these and a Toshiba Cell Regza please. Delivered to Mexico. After the job.
Dear Panasonics engineers, I don't want to my self on TV, I want to see what on TV.
^to see my self
The frame on the left is gray. The frame on the right is black. That's not fair!
Or the other way round...
You're right, it's a pretty cheap trick. Firstly the frame on the right looks matte and not gloss, and the one on the left is the other way round. That way you see an optical illusion.
Not only that, but because the matte diffuses the reflection, it's probably not that less reflective than the glossy one, but the diffusing gives it the slightly off-black effect.
Don't really see the fuss with it to be honest.
Is it just glossy vs matte
it's even darker that it's black frame ! blacker than black awesome
Mirror finish? Lol cause most households have a huge spotlight for lighting. I have a glossy finish on my tv and never has it bothered me.
It's like, how much more black could this be? and the answer is none. None more black.
Sure, but does your TV go to 11?
hehe, you can use that tv to watch the other tv in the back, why do they still make glossy screens its so damn annoying when your trying to watch tv in the middle of the day.
Did you guys get confused as to the meanings of "like" and "unlike"?
Since when to Kuro's have viewing angle problems?
That's exactly what I was thinking. I actually turned around because my PC is at an almost 160 degree angle from my Kuro just to make sure it still had great viewing angle. I'm happy to report everything is still functioning properly.
Mine too, that's why I was surprised.
They need to make some screens over 37in or no one will care. LOL
This feels like a Best Buy calibration setup.
Wow, great! And look how it doubles up as a shaving mirror...
Gawd, I could tweeze nose hairs in that mirror...
Ohhhh waaaauuw...now I can finally stop crying from Pioneer decided to stop producing plasmas.
Wow... that was a funny one but wrong at the same time. I still LOL'ed
Wow, it's so glossy it looks like a mirror.
Wow. That's as dark as my Panny Plasma.
Is that a high gloss screen, lord knows how that went over with Apple.
This is an old trick. Under glaring lights a matte screen with wash out and the glossy screen will have a ton of reflections (as seen here).
Then the salesman will push the glossy screen saying ignore the reflections you won't have those at home, but you will have the better blacks.
But in reality that is BS. In normal home lighting the washout on the matte screen goes away so the blacks equalize, but every little thing reflects off gloss unless you are sitting in a dark cave.
I have a semi-matte screen on my 5 series Samsung. It is about perfect. I don't get any reflections or washout unless I have a light shining directly on it.
I know how bad glossy would look because it has a glossy frame and the frame is annoying as hell as it is full of reflections all the time.
Why do they give us annoying glossy frames? No need for that at all. Matte screen and matte frame next time. I may yet take the sandpaper to mine.
I agree, not a fan of glossy bezels/frames. Sure, they look good when the TV is turned off, but they are just too damn distracting when you're trying to watch something and your eyes keep going to the light reflecting of the bezel.
I've got a 32" Sony KDL-32L5000 in the bedroom that employs the matte bezel and it doesn't suffer from the glare of the Samsung it replaced. And it still looks good turned off.
I have been waiting to pick up a Panasonic plasma for the living room for quite some time, but my wife has not given me the go-ahead yet...unfortunately, their plasmas also have glossy bezels, so maybe if I hold off long enough their next models will use matte (and then maybe my wife will realize that we NEED a new TV).
I don't doubt that Panasonic is pushing the black envelope, but its refreshing to see that everyone here recognizes the not-so-subtle glossy vs matte comparison. I would love to see another video, this time in a dimly lit room, with a high-end LCD, a (not in production any more) Pioneer plasma and one of the new Panasonic sets. THAT would be interesting.
HAHA!!!!!!!! Love it
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why designers keep putting reflective/smudge prone borders around electronics we're constantly viewing?
Nope, you're not the only one. See Snowdog's comments and my response to him above.
I absolutely agree with you. Maybe one day TVs won't even have bezels (or bezels so thin that you barely notice them) and it will just look like a floating panel design. Or they can just replace the reflective material with matte and call it a day.
And to be clear, I am only referring to the bezels, not the panels here. For some reason, I actually prefer glossy to matte when it comes to screens.
Great to see others noticed the glossy vs. matte difference. It took about 2 seconds. Kind of damages Darren Murphy's credibility as an expert. Of course shame on Panasonic for creating an apples and oranges comparison side by side. Now if someone could figure out how to make a matte finish look as good as glossy that would be something.
The point isn't the glossy screen versus the matte finish but rather the technology behind the surface. People keep focusing on the whole glossy screen thing rather than the underlying tech that makes the IPS-Alpha tech work. Maybe Panasonic should have presented it with two matte finishes or two glossy finishes so the easily distracted among us could focus on what's actually happening here.
It Mostly Illusion!
the TV on the left has a matte screen and and dark frame which makes the image look darker
while the TV on the right has a glossy screen (which alone makes the colours look darker) and it also had a lighter frame which makes the image look darker :)
Admittedly, i dont think that accounts for the difference totally, but it makes it look better than it actually is :)
Ooh you noticed :)
Sorry, didnt read the comments lol
Looks nice
This article makes absolutely no sense. First, there is also no mention of whether the panels shown are LCD or Plasma. IPS is LCD technology not Plasma. Implying that the Pioneer plasma does not have wide viewing angles and that an LCD does makes me question what the heck this reviewer is talking about. Pretty sad when Engadget has writers who know nothing about the technology they are reviewing. Like the other readers, I also noticed the difference in frames on the panels. Also the matte finish on one screen and glossy screen on the other doesn't help the comparison. Would need to see these in a dark room with no reflections to really compare black levels.
John if you are so smart you should realize that while IPS technology was originally developed for LCD's, Panasonic has adopted the technology for use in it's plasma displays.
OK Brett since you are so smart, do a Google search and you will get zero hits for IPS relating to plasma panels. How can a plasma have In Plane Switching and alignment of crystals. So unless you know something the rest of us don't or work directly for Panasonic's technology development department, please provide a link where Panasonic talks about adapting IPS to Plasma. I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you can prove your assertion.
Thanks for the link burkey.
However, I have never seen a plasma television with as matte a finish as the one on the left. If you go here:
http://asia.cnet.com/crave/2009/10/07/panasonic-shows-off-next-generation-ips-alpha-panels-at-ceatec/
Crave says it is an LCD panel with a glossy screen - which is the trend now (Samsung) making them look like a plasma.
I have a 5.5 year old plasma and the extreme off angle is as bright and clear as straight on viewing. Granted it was the most expensive plasma out there at the time, but come on. On the other hand I have had some of the worst experiences with off angle viewing on many newer LCDs (as they crank up the brightness) - 10 times worse. I still find it hard to believe that there is no press release from Panasonic talking about adapting IPS to Plasma.
Can't find any mention of plasma on this site either:
http://www.ips-alpha.co.jp/en/index.html
So until I see a press release from Panasonic and not some ill-informed copy-cat blogger, my bet is that it is an LCD.
The author of the article seems confused. Plasmas don't have viewing angle problems. Look at one from near 180 degrees and there's no color distortion. LCDs on the other hand tend to have viewing angle problems. Older IPS panels have a purple shift for blacks when viewed from the side, but I guess this panel fixes that?
über quick, über dark, über reflective.
über expensive?
TV, TV on the wall whose the fairest of them all?
Okay John I did a google search and found this:
Need For IPS ALPHA PANEL In Plasma Television
http://www.plasmatvreviews.org.uk/articles/need-for-ips-alpha-panel-in-plasma-television/
Hopefully by the time they show off the next-gen IPS Alpha plasma's at CES they'll have matte screens.
Well whatever it is I hope the 2010 plasmas use the same finishes they have this year, gorgeous sets.
The April 2009 Panasonic show had the following slide which shows they're intending on getting out an 8mm plasma in 2010 with true infinite contrast using the new NeoPDPeco panels which were not features on any of this year's models - this is the panel designed in conjunction with Pioneer Kuro technology.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/4663/vieraevolution.png
Should be awesome.