Finland says that 1Mb broadband is a right, not a privilege
By Joseph L. Flatley 
posted Oct 15th 2009 1:03PM
posted Oct 15th 2009 1:03PM
- Whereas all of those old episodes of Dexter available on the torrent trackers are not going to download themselves.
- Whereas no man or woman in a civilized society should be denied access to Garfield Minus Garfield.
- Whereas Finland has a population 61 times smaller than that of the United States.
- Whereas no household deserves to be "farther than 2 kilometers from a connection capable of delivering broadband Internet with a capacity of at least 100 megabits of data a second" (unless, of course, you're "in far-flung corners of the country," in which case you're out of luck).
- Whereas this is the same nation that brought the world Nokia and public restrooms that can only be accessed via SMS.
- Now, Therefore YLE reports that FINLAND has made 1-megabit broadband Web access a LEGAL RIGHT starting in JULY 2010, with the ultimate goal of making 100Mb available to all in 2015. Now APOCALYPTICA has no excuse for never updating its MySpace page.
[Via CNET]
I live in socal. I get 24 Mbps for the last 6 years.
Heck I get 1800 Kbps on my $49 iPhone on speed tests.
DANG! I never thught this day would come but.... I agree with you !
My connection in the U.S has been nice and stable around 18 - 20 mbps.
When I played WoW (I know, I know - those were dark days) I was able to play in the French server without any lag or issues at all. While many French had massive lag and complained how slow their connection is.
The grass is greener in the other side. But I am too busy looking at my phone to see the grass :D
The story is not so much about 24Mb or 1Mb, it's about EVERYONE getting it. Not socal, but also MONTANA, MAINE or WYOMING getting broadband.
@tikiteko
It doesn't matter if you have a 1 Mbit/s connection or 1 Gigabit/s (!), you will still get lag if you play in a server located far away. There is a thing called latency and it is the most important thing that matters in online games when it comes to connection stability to the server.
6 years ago, when I had 256 kbit/s, latency was around 15-20 ms (no lag!) in Counter Strike 1.6. Today I have a 7 Mbit/s connection and latency is about the same. Sometimes it is even higher than before!
The only things high bandwidth is good for, is downloading/uploading files via torrent, downloading large files on Rapidshare, Megaupload etc. and allowing many computers to use the Internet at once. It is not that useful for gaming.
It's also useful for running game servers though.
A 1Mbps connection is as much as a human right as health care is.... oh wait.
If you call a 3G mobile connection with speeds *up to* 1M and a latency of 600+ms broadband, then yes, everyone will have broadband by the summer of 2010. Meanwhile, the ISPs are busy rolling up copper all around the countryside leaving thousands with out any possibility for dsl and not doing a thing to make the 2015 goal of 100M a reality.
1Mb? as in 1 megabyte or 1 megabit?
1 megabit is not fast. We have that in Turkey. (And people always moan about how it's slower than Nordic countries)
The law is for 1 megabit and they count 3G mobile connections that have unacceptable latency for anything more than occasional email and news headlines.
Lower case "b" stands for bit while upper case "B" stands for byte. In this case, it's lower case, so it's megabit.
Sigh. The point is that they are requiring the lines to be there, for the infrastructure, so they have the ability to get broadband. Baby steps man, baby steps.
Good lord how absurd!
Broadband internet a right? How about Cable TV too?
Oh and how about the folks that live in places that cant receive electricity or water service? Those things, that can be argued to be more necessary for life, are not rights...but the ability to get quickie internet is?
I totally agree.
Access to broadband sounds about as reasonable as access to a public library. Yes it sounds reasonable.
Erm. You'll be hard pressed to find a place that A) doesn't have water (Finland has one of the most extensive fresh water resources in the world, thus if by some happenstance you don't have "public water" you can always drill a well) or B) don't have electricity and is used as a main establishment (there are cottages which don't have electricity but this can even be by choice, for that is the nature of summer cottage). Find one that has both lacking (permanent/main establishment and not by choice) and I congratulate you.
Apparently, to certain Engadget readers, free HD porn is more important than water.
I won't lie, I live in BFE Central Florida - I pay $40 for 3Mbs...... I'll happily pay for it, though, mostly because I don't have an option.... Stupid BFE.
Not sure where having internet access is a right, usually you fight for your rights (life, liberty, party....).
I would pull a Wayne Brady to get 20Mbs for $40 though.
To correct any confusion, there will be no free of charge internet in Finland. All this means is that there will have to be a minimum availability of 1Mb internet access where ever you are in the country. All this will ensure is that people who live out in the woods won't be stuck with 56k or similar any longer. Also Finland is not known for cheap internet, i pay around 40 euros for an 8mbit DSL connection.
Not that 1mb for everyone doesn't already sound good but 100mb for everyone in 6 years sound fantastic.
I wish I had 1MB broadband. I'm currently on an average of 64 Kbps.
Damn you, Tiscali.
currently i´ve 100 Mbit in Finland. It´s very normal speed connection over here.
Its not normal as you put it, its certainly available in some areas but by no means normal.
It's so cute to see brain washed morons think they have a chance of attaining any kind of real wealth in America.
Socialism > Plutocracy.
Well, that is what socialism is known for - creating wealth.
Liberty > Socialism
America was not always that way, but through greed and politics (something socialism isn't immune to) it has been twisted into that. There are many of us that bid for smaller government and smaller taxes to alleviate some of this. Socialism is not the answer. No socialist country has lasted long enough to draw enough of a conclusion that it works because it violates the humanistic nature of competitiveness.
Who are all these idiotic Americans that think Finland and the rest of Europe are not capitalists ?
Europe invented Capitalism bitches.....
Only about 10% of the pop in Finland have a 100mb connection as an option. That's basically Helsinki and a few other places. For 50+ euros/month. The rest are stuck at 24mb at best, for the same price. I'm using a 10/10 connection, though it's included in the rent. Still by 2015 the connection should be at least that. Probably 10% will have 1000mb availability. That's not to say people will exercise their "right" to buy this faster broadband. Some are content with 1mb.
All this governmental right means is that the operators must offer the broadband with reasonable speed and price also outside bigger cities. This would not happen without government backing, it's bad business for operators.
I agree that this is the right course of action to take, since Internet is more and more prevalent in the society, and necessary for every day living in a modern society.
In Estonia (south to Finland, population 1,3mil)...
There are options for home users...
100/20Mbit connection for 39 euros (including tv)
100/6Mbit docsis 3.0 for 39 euros (including tv)
I currently pay 15 euros for 20/20Mbit connection with Fix IP.
No monthly limits or nothing..
So come to live here :)
That's ridiculous. People can live without the internet, and it is not someone's right to have taxpayer money pay for something like broadband internet. I can see how socialized health care could be up for debate, but really, internet?
Never mind. It it's true that it is not socialized internet, and it is just availability of that internet, then fine, I have no problem.
"to have taxpayer money pay for something like broadband internet."
Reading comprehension failure.
That mandate is no not that everyone gets an internet connection without paying for it but that a provider must provide at least 1 Mbps for at every location to everyone willing to pay for a connection.
thats nice, but i already have one
some bitches have it all
@JCla
What do you think we're hiding in that big golfball of ours? a stadium? ha! not even close.....
I love how everyone in the US always says: "Well we are capitalist and we have free market here" But in the end the only thing that you get is a higher bill and lesser quality service when it comes to nearly anything. The funny part is that you think that we have less laws in the US but in truth we have more laws, only our laws aren't created by law makers, they are created by lobbyists. YAY! Long live capitalism!
Very well said!
Don't forget Europe is also a free market economy and capitalist. Americans don't understand what capitalism means, Europe invented it.
As a self made business man in the United States I find that these positive comments on "free" internet a little disturbing. . If taxes are raised even more on my business then I will have no choice but to fire about 20% of my work force. Sure, I will pay the taxes but my employees will have to pay with the loss of their jobs. If I go out of business I will pick myself back up but next time I will structure my business to require only a couple of people as opposed to the 10 I have now. These taxes are killing my business and my employees are paying the price. It's sad but I am starting to feel that closing my business and retiring is a better option. Sure, 10 people will be out of work but I'm sick of kissing the feet of my government and giving over half of the fruits of my labor to "better our society".
than how come electronics/gadgets almost always cost less in the US than in Europe?
also, this guy from finland says he pays 40 euros for 8mbit DSL:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/15/finland-says-that-1mb-broadband-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/comments/22363356/
i can pay less than that for ~8mbit cable from COX. so there goes your little argument.
if you hate the US so much, kindly get the fuck out.
No-one mentioned free Derek, the minimum of 1MB internet is still paid for by private citzens to private companies nice and capitalist like.
uhm, you pay less for cox but have a cap, don't forget the cap, oh and then there's traffic shaping..
@derek "If I go out of business I will pick myself back up but next time I will structure my business to require only a couple of people as opposed to the 10 I have now" - You make it sound like if you go out of business it'll have as much to do with you poorly structuring your business as it will with the government taxing you out of existence. Why would you "tax" yourself by supporting 10 employees when you could have structured your business to function with only a couple? LOL, it sounds like a socialist minded business model you've got going on there? It's not your responsibility to society to employ as many people as you possibly can.
It's easy with a small population packed tightly together. The US is spread out over an enormous area with lots of aging rural infrastructure.
Wikipedia: Population density in Finland: 16/km2, in USA: 31/km2.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:World_population_density_map.PNG
Actually population density in USA is about two times higher than in Finland
@the two replies:
"unless, of course, you're "in far-flung corners of the country," in which case you're out of luck"
so yeah.
The same thing has been talked about by british politicians for years now, mind you they never bother to make an actual bill and vote on it, they just like to talk a lot.
And I guess the need to make a mandatory right on internet is also linked in how wired up a country's government is, if all services are to be used online then not having access handicaps you unfairly.
Now that's what I call a public option!
Man and I cant even get RELIABLE 1mbit in my small texas town.
I think that this would be much epicness. *Begins looking up citizenship requirements for finland*
I live in Finland and i have 100Mbs connection which isn`t even expensive :P
All Hail Finlandia!
@Wwhat and WmPenn, I think you guys are not getting my point and are reading too much into my comment; much of what isn't there and you're just assuming my intent. I'm not bashing Finland or it's tax system at all. Socialism at theoretical level is great, and the Scandinavian countries are the closest to having it right (especially for certain services like healthcare, since they don't get lower quality services even though they're are public, unlike in the US). I'm only saying that with the amount of taxes they pay they should get free broadband (though not really free as it comes from taxes), without having to pay extra, or at least something extremely cheap (such as landline phones here in the US). That's it. I wasn't trying to say anything more than that.
If I was taxed as much as citizens of Finland are taxed, I would want free public broadband as well. You have to understand that that Finnish citizens pay almost double what US citizens pay in taxes. Also people keep making these comments about how they should have free public health care instead, well they already do along with most Scandinavian countries.
There is no free public broadband. All this bill means is that 1Mbit broadband must be available for everyone in the country. It means that where ever you live you must be able to get access to reliable 1Mbit internet if you so choose, you still have to pay for it. It's mostly a guarantee so that people living far out in the woods won't get stuck with 56k modems for the rest of their lives seeing as the cost benefit for ISP's to drag copper or fiber out to the backwoods is pretty lousy. Obviously this doesn't mean anything for most people in Finland. Most of us have access to at least 24Mbit DSL connections. Just recently we've been getting fiber optics dragged into my home town, and only now do some of the residents have access to 100Mbit speeds if they so wish. My parents still have a 2Mbit connection which is enough for them, I have an 8Mbit connection which pretty much only gets around 7Mbit. I could upgrade to 24Mbit if i wished but the ISP only guarantees up to 1/3 of the speed so yeah.
I see how my comment is confusing. When I said "as well" I meant in addition to guaranteeing broadband availibility. I guess I should have said, "...in addition to guaranteeing broadband, I would want free public broadband as well" (I think that makes more sense). I know they don't get free broadband, but I was saying I would want free broadband because of how much I pay for taxes (from the viewpoint of a Finland citizen), not just the availability of it.
In the US you just pay the same or more but to the big corporations, if I pay %20 tax and get a $30 treatment at the doctor or pay %5 tax and have to pay $1000 for treatment for the same thing because the medicine manufacturers are free to milk you.
For the simple low to mid level income consumer there's no advantage, and to prove the point the whole system in the US collapsed, showing capitalism in a pure form (as supported by bush and cronies) was and is a failure, you have to find a balance you know.
@Kurgan, if we Americans take what we pay in federal, state and local taxes + what we pay for all the others services the Finnish people receive from there tax money alone, how much better off are we really? Not much i'd say, hell we might just be worse off in real dollars spent vs services provided. Gotta compare apples to apples my friend, we receive a lot less tax payer funded services and have to pay for the rest of it out of pocket to achieve the same level of services they receive from paying taxes alone.
SUOMI, RAKAS MAANI, MAAILMANLAAJUINEN JOHTAJA!!!!!!
KANSALAISILLE VOIMAA, INTERNETTIÄ KAIKILLE!!!
Actually, YLE and Finnish government has taken the access to the internet a reason why every single finnish citizen is legally forced to pay the "media usage payment". They chose to not use it as a tax or any of the old fashioned readio/television license fees. It's more than a right, it's a obligation and a responsibility of every citizen.
Yeah, nice, what about people who don't even have a TV no more than a computer. They are still legally forced to pay the same money as the rest of the facebookers and media streamers... for nothing. There are people like this still in Here, I know a few... and they are not happy. Neither am I. Seems like government of Finland is really controlling the internet and can say who uses it and who doesn't...
However you put it, it is still much better than the way they are now collecting the money. They pay who want to pay! Although it is required to pay if you use tv or such, but people just do not pay even they use it. From now on, everyone will pay. That's not probably the best way to do it but it is much better anyhow!
Btw. I'm loving this 110M internet connection. VERY NICE.
1M GET!
SUOMIII!!! Kyllä me ollaan nyt niiiin kuuluisia. :P
As much as I agree with and love this, I have to wonder what happens when the internet drops out. Citizens rights are violated so does that mean its ok for them to sue?
We dont sue each other overhere, thats the US way of acting =)
You guys want to move to Finland?
Enjoy Sweden's Mexico.
Just to clear a point: the finnish internet providers must by law (after january first 2011) provide at least 1mb/dl connection to every household in the country and if/when the household wants to, he can buy it for whatever price is current at the time from whichever provider.
Only the infrastructure for the cables and whatnot will be payed with our taxes, not the actual service.
About the prices, I just today upped my 1mb/dl to 24mb/dl and am paying for it 27.90€ per month come next week. I shall declare that decent.
Yep...
1 - "Ummm you missed a meeting somewhere, Europe has been a capitalist economy since before the USA existed, where do you think it came from >?"
2 - "Spot all the Americans who assume that Finland isn't capitalist, the whole of Europe is a capitalist free market economy you idiots !"
3 - "Don't forget Europe is also a free market economy and capitalist. Americans don't understand what capitalism means, Europe invented it."
4 - "Who are all these idiotic Americans that think Finland and the rest of Europe are not capitalists ? Europe invented Capitalism bitches....."
Europe = Capitalist and has been for Millennia, throw in a bit of name-calling to get you down-ranked.
Many countries in the EU have or had a socialist government though, in the UK the ruling party is 'labour' which is supposed to be socialist, although in the bush years people like tony blair in the UK (and others in other european countries) felt they could rid themselves of any social aspects, but still.
So yes there is a combination of socialism and US style capitalism in the EU, where the US style became much too pronounced under the influence of the glow bush radiated towards the bloody fascist types, and although that has slowed down it's harder to halt in europe than the US even, but still there's core influences of socialism in europe because on average the euros aren't shit-scared of it and don't mind a little decency and brotherhood when it doesn't get too much.
(I deliberately ignore that you say europe has been capitalist forever and that half of europe was part of the soviet block and thus not capitalist, understanding you meant the 'classic' europe)
Now if the US should be like europe is another question, the whole reason of the coming about of the US is people not liking the european way of doing things, and the whole system and thinking is different in a few key ways, so you can't port the european things to the US, or visa versa, but unfortunately they (politicians) do try, they privatized everything in europe to make it more american but then ignore that that should mean people also should have to pay less tax, and should have more freedoms, they only port the things US businesspeople can use to get rich from europe basically but the politicians don't 'get' the US really and the principles it's based on (only the corruption since that's universal)
Population shouldn't matter. You could just as well look at it as a state.
Smaller state is easier to wire up than a large empty one though, who's going to pay for a 1000 mile fiber to 2 farmer's homes?
What matters is the population density of the area you are trying to wire up. Major cities have high density and short cable runs. Meanwhile some place like Wyoming has low population density and huge cable runs to reach those few individuals. Which do you think is cheaper to wire up per person? This is the reason why small land areas with high density, like Japan, can afford to have pretty much universal coverage available. The US isn't nearly as lucky about infrastructure costs. It's a big big country and a lot of if is sparsely populated once you move inland. The cost to get service to those folks soars...
Internet is great and all, but how is this right going to be guaranteed? Unlike the right to freedom of expression, this cannot be enforced in extreme circumstances (electromagnetic pulses, earthquakes, floods, fires, other disasters). It isn't a natural right, it is an artificial right. Could an individual take it to court when their right is impinged by the government? I doubt it, since the government is giving you this "right" as a gift. Ultimately you are paying for it in via taxes and fees.
University education isn't a right, it is a privileged. Have you seen these dumb asses who claim to be "Bachelors of Science". They're no smarter than the average person, and furthermore they have their common sense reduced to near idiotic levels by years of partying (not that partying is inherently bad) and relentless psychobabble. The reason European states pay for education schemes is so they can brainwash their populace into certain accepting certain positions, political or otherwise. It is simply a way of buying the populace's loyalty with their own money. If you provide everything for free (however, it is via taxes so it isn't free) the people are essentially a collective of one, not a group of individuals who are free to exercise their will as they please. You just end up paying for some unemployed freak's access to child porn.
Government is the blight of humanity it suppresses individuality, creativity (I'm sure they want to promote the arts, not just create a new industry and means for propaganda), competition and even basic human rights like privacy. Government is bad, m'kay? Nationalism is bad, m'kay?
Feed the troll.
You could use it to prevent getting cut out due to sharing files, or trolling or being unpleasant.
And in fact when france first came with that law that can make them forbid people to use the internet if they get convicted for sharing twice the EU was talking about it basically being a universal right to have internet since you need it to access many official services from the EU and governments, but apparently that didn't pan out since the bill with some adjustment did pass in france I hear and then there was some such ideas in germany too.
It's interesting that in the U|S they can also order people to not use the net (as I understand it) if they were hackers, I wonder how they squared that with existing constitutional rights.
@Wwhat "It's interesting that in the US they can also order people to not use the net if they were hackers, I wonder how they squared that with existing constitutional rights." - Let me clear that up for you. The only way the government can restrict someones access to the internet is if they have been convicted of a crime and the restricted access is part of their criminal sentencing. Basically if your a convicted criminal you have forfeited many of your constitutional rights as a citizen of the US. In some cases it is only for the length of the sentence imposed, in other cases it is for life and your only recourse is for a Governor or the President to pardon you of your crime.
@lezeus "Internet is great and all, but how is this right going to be guaranteed? Unlike the right to freedom of expression, this cannot be enforced in extreme circumstances" - The legislation does not create an inalienable human right in the sense you refer. It is simply a government mandate that all ISP's will provide a minimum 1Mb level of service by July 2010, and minimum of 100Mb by 2015, and that no household will be further then 2 kilometers from such service outlets (except for about 2,000 households in far flung corners of the country which seem to be exempt from the legislation). Got it?
Cute but no most constitutional rights remain for sentenced individuals, also to be sentenced they have to use the law, and saying you can't have internet is suppressing your freedom of expression, and free trade, and the pursuit of happiness etcetera so they cannot apply it lawfully, I guess the accused signs up for it as part of a deal though to not get in prison, but I'm sure you could fight it and have a good shot wining in the supreme court.
@ Mega-Japan's "America, in most technological terms, sux" comment.
I currently reside in Spain, and I can tell you that you most definitely DO NOT get paid for going to college. The higher education system here is atrocious and inefficient, and almost just flat-out incompetent. Sure, America might be missing out in a lot of aspects --- such as the relatively cheap health care --- but it also trumps many things. Additionally, things such as internet speed are so much better over there in the states (even in the remote areas) than they are here. These Spaniards seem to be stuck in the prehistoric age when it comes to bandwidth, seeing as they still use ADSL, which is extremely slow when compared to cable and fiber optic (They do have fiber optic available here, but it's only available if you live within the city... and it is expensive). Hell, even a fairly slow internet connection here can run you upwards of 30 euros a month.
In my opinion, if you do leave the states, just make sure you get an education there before you leave. You will not regret it. (Again, this is based on my personal experience here... I am not trying to paint all people from Spain with the same brush.)
Keep in mind that the civilised parts of Europe consider Spain only good for beaches and binge drinking. It is not the asshole of the EU, but then definitely the taint.
Uhm, just because the lowerclass euros goto spanish beaches and act even lower class doesn't make that the country shitty, it sooner makes those tourists lamentable, and their places of origin less civilized. My impression of britain for instance certainly isn't one of high class quality civilization after seeing the binge drinkers and chavs and hooligans and assorted tossers and decay, and pakistani losers.
Rights? whats that? I wish we had that in the US!
To quote a Simpsons episode: "You have rights too...you have the right to remain silent!" :D
There was a bill with rights, but the chafing of bush's ass when he used it as toiletpaper made it hard to decipher what it says and nobody is left in washington with a natural ability to fill in the gaps on either side of the political spectrum.
In the UK we're about to introduce a tax whereby anyone who owns a fixed landline will have to pay a whopping 50p a month in tax that goes towards extending coverage of 2mb/s broadband for everyone. There are rumours of goverment funded fibreoptic lines or possible broadband down power lines.
While giving everyone 2mb broadband doesn't sound like much, the point is broadband services are basically a postcode lottery here, I get reliable 8mb/s broadband here with TalkTalk, at my girlfriend's house less than a mile down the road, they get 700kb/s at best yet they are with the same provider and pay the same amount for an inferior service.
The EU doesnt' allow that, other countries in the EU wanted government supported fiber but the EU ruled it anti-competitive.
Mind you the EU rules are often ignored and need active challenging in courts to get applied, plus the brits sneak in special provisions in EU rules all the time and would probably simply do that when they really wanted it.
Also, Europe may be capitalist, but it is not free market. The free market economy has been dead in the USA since 1913 (when the Federal Reserve was established). Europe invented mercantilism, capitalism, fascism (corporatism), sozialismus and communism. However, Europe didn't invent the free market. Even then, inventing something doesn't mean you use it. Nazi Germany invented many fearful killing machines. Surely, Germany doesn't still use them? I still don't see why everyone keep comparing everything to America, America is not the universal benchmark. It is well acknowledged that America is one of the most backward modern systems, but guess what.. That is why it was one of the most powerful states on earth for a period of one hundred years. Every nation has their moment in the sun, America has had theirs. Now stop comparing everything to a failed, but noble, experimental state.
It is interesting that they spend their money helping every inhabitant get internet access. But, if they're such a noble state why don't they guarantee that people, worldwide, do not starve to death on a regular basis? Simply because the whole world does not pay them taxes. This isn't charity; it is just an investment of money taken from the Finns. (Although they are very proud of their successes).
No and no. It's not an investment money like you seem to comprehend it, and thus we are not paying for it like you seem to think. Let me explain:
Years before this whole thing, the ISP's were all in agreement with government that they will provide internet to every citizen, it's just now been made official. The ISP's have already been tearing down copper from rural areas cos hardly anyone has landline phones anymore (at least last 10 years I haven't heard of single family that has landline phone and still uses it) and since it's cheaper to use wireless to provide the bandwith. Thus, there already are means to provide the connections AND have already been spinning to that direction for years. All that the law does is to protect the few people who live too far away from any existing network, to have a working broadband. Though, since Finland has had GSM 100% coverage for almost a decade already, I don't think that is going to be a problem. See what I'm heading here?
The internet access in Finland is quite important since things like banking have already been online for way over 10 years in here and most of the government stuff is already moving towards internet, for example you can fill out forms, apply and cash out loans etc all via your browser, so the connection is becoming more and more vital. Thus, by making internet connection a legal right the government can, in the future, push things purely to the internet. And all they are doing is making sure ISP can't just drop people off from the grid whenever they feel like it.
Maybe people are comparing things to US, oh, I don't know, maybe because the site you are writing to resides within the same country? Do you think purely international site would be reporting AT&T coverage in Chigago (or where-ever) so extensively?
Oh, btw. A lot of stuff Nazi Germany has invented is being used every day all around the world. A space shuttle would be nice example of Nazi Germany engineering.
The only NAZI weapons not in the arsenals anymore, either the german or US ones, are landmines, and I'm sure the US has a stockpile of those in case they are not wining and need to ignore the rules.
Apart from that I think they are all there, guns, tanks, rockets, planes, phosphorous, what have you.
And yeah go embed yourself as a journalist amongst the taliban and see them being all used still.
But that wasn't the thrust of your comment, sorry for going into details.
Finland. Where the government takes every penny you make except 15% of your paycheck. THAT's a FACT people, Look it up.
If you love having your government decide what's important to you,by all means move to Finland, or any other nordic nation.
"Finland. Where the government takes every penny you make except 15% of your paycheck"
Give us a link to this amazing fact of yours DavidB !
My link to counter counter your claim - http://www.worldwide-tax.com/finland/finland_tax.asp
i.e. -
Tax (%) Tax Base (EUR)
0 1-13,100
7% 13,101-21,700
18% 21,701-35,300
22% 35,301-64,500
30.5% 64,501 And Over
85% Tax rate? Jesus, where the hell do you people come from? And is that a "FACT"? From where, straight out of your arse?
Stop getting your facts from FOX news. Europe pays MARGINALLY bigger taxes than the great USA. Marginally. Free healthcare and education up to university hasn't ruined Europe financially. In fact this free socialist education system has granted Finland the top spot in PISA student education level tests every single year for years and years. USA can be found a the bottom. I guess they don't count creationism as a subject in their tests.
But don't look up any facts yourself. You can educate yourself with the "news" you get from FOX. That is all a person needs. Listening to the mouthpiece of large corporations. That is who a country is about, right, the large corporations and making the people who run them richer. Not ensuring the greatest quality of life for it's citizens?
FOX TV you mean, fox's news site although opinionated (like they all are including the BBC) at least has links to the actual facts, unlike sites like the bbc and cnn ones where they never link to the pdf of a discussed bill for instance.
This isn't meant so much to defend FOX but to criticize other news sites, who think they are so high and mighty that people should be content with their interpretation alone.
@Suomaa, you wrote: "How about free education (inc. university) and you actually even get paid for studying (not much but still)?"
nothing is ever really free. Someone's got to be paying for it.
Did you get paid to say that? See, things can be free.
I'm glad to see all of you morons that want the government to provide for you want to move out of this country. This is one case were I think the government should pay for your plane ticket out of here.
Are you some kind of socialist? Fancy plane tickets? I mean really..
I really like where this is going...
Unmitigated internet access for all. Kudos to the Finnish (did I get this right?) folks who made this happen.
Almost half-wishing Meralco would make it's future broadband-over-power-lines free for public consumption.
Hey, Engadget...How 'bout making ALL the comments readable, instead of just the ones with a "Neutral" or "Highest" rating? If you want people to know the rating, why not just highlight the plus, minus, or explanation point? Your readers aren't stupid. We deserve the ability to decide for OURSELVES which comments to read!