Remember that legal dealio with Apple that erupted after the Norwegian Consumer Council, Forbrukerrådet,
read the iTunes EULA? Right, that toothless complaint that waffled on for years until it was finally rendered moot by Apple going DRM-free -- long after Apple benefited from the iTunes-to-iPod lock-in. Well, it's brewing again only this time the council has focused its meticulously crafted aluminum spectacles, often highlighted with vibrant reds or blues, upon Amazon's practice of tying its content exclusively to the
Kindle's new international reader. According to a critique published by the Council's boss, Hans Marius Graasvold, the fine print in the Kindle's terms of service, "violated several provisions of Norwegian consumer protection law." He takes exception with Amazon's ability terminate the terms of service
entirely should customers violate said terms. In other words, Amazon could deny you access to all your purchased books if you make an illegal copy of just one -- unimaginable by brick-and-mortar standards where a Wal-mart could take your entire CD collection should you decide to rip a single disc. Graasvold's also miffed at Amazon's ability to change the agreement at any time without advanced notification. The Council does not currently have official support from the country's Consumer Ombudsman as it did when it went after Apple. For the moment, the council says that it's awaiting feedback from Amazon and Norwegian publishers before proceeding with what Graasvold calls, "an iTunes 2 case if we are not satisfied." Good luck with that.
posted Oct 30th 2009 9:23AM
Me thinks that most lawyers for corporations write EULA based on the assumption that 99.9999999% of cowsumers will not read them and as such could put whatever they wanted in them, including the taking of your first born.
That's true, and,
They write them to be as protective as possible of the corporation (and arguably, with good reason). That way, if there's any question in court, since people love to sue, they can have all their bases covered.
Even if the company puts something in the EULA that doesn't stand up in court, they probably won't be penalized for it, but will just have to remove it. Since most people have to agree to arbitration when they sign any contract these days, whatever is enforceable in the agreement tends to benefit the company favorably.
Think of it like the nuclear arms race, except in this case it's the stockpiling of legalese.
For this reason EULAs have already proved unenforcible in court.
They're also generally written by US lawyers who have no understanding of the superior consumer protection laws that are in effect in many other countries.
Still about frivolous topics like someone erasing your ebook stash? How about someone obsoleting you and erasing your existence from the face of the earth without your permission. If you have no clue what I am babbling about here watch the "ENDGAME" documentary by ALEX JONES.
For sure... I think they're written as a cover-all get out of jail free card. I'm glad they don't always stand up in court when this kind of ridiculous stuff goes into them. Go Norway
Just don't buy the Kindle. Problem solved.
On the topic of online retailers having vast power to reclaim their products and other DRM measures (and ensuing punishments), Cory Doctorow gave a great presentation on the topic here: http://q2cfestival.com/play.php?lecture_id=7748
Good thing there's people who read those, because I sure can't be bothered with it.
Same here - It reminds me though of this guy who read an EULA to find that it contained a line which said that he may be due 'financial compensation' if he emails the company regarding the EULA. The result? They gave him a $1000 cheque for being the first person to read it :)
Source: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/23/2315211
"unimaginable by brick-and-mortar standards where a Wal-mart could take your entire CD collection should you decide to rip a single disc"
If you were prosecuted by walmart for piracy you would have a lot more to worry about than losing your CD collection!
You cannot be sued by walmart for pirating CDs because they are a distributor. They do not hold any rights on the items they sell.
At some point, I am sure that in some EULA I agreed to sell off my first born daughter to a middle-eastern prince. Luckily, these guys are out there to protect us from Apple and Amazon's legal teams.
Makes you wonder if these corporate giants ever read the EULAs their own lawyers came up with or not, to see what kind of PR damage a poorly written one could do. Apple sure didn't win any hearts with the last one after all.
EULA´s always made me wonder how they could function. Maybe.. in some country it´s allowed to write an EULA in whicn you are supposed to give away your first born. It could be legal somewhere yet to use the verysame EULA worldwide may cause some problems as is here. I can imagine the regulations written by Amazon are perfectly ok in the US yet in the EU and then especially Norway the law may see it differently. Rendering EULA´s anways probably always somewhere illegal due differences. What troubles me most is that when I want to use something an EULA can prevent me in their legal point of view todo whatever I feel like while my laws consider it differently. This.. isn´t a poblem yet if I want to have my rights I have to spend time and money on a paper which could be illegal locally. The whole EULA system imo is botched and companies should consider writing them atleast per continent different and if possible even per country to meetup to the local laws.
Go Norway go!
I hope the new Consumer Protection Agency or something that recently launched take a deep look at all these EULAs.
Hey Engadget, there never was an iTunes to iPod lock.
It locked things you downloaded from iTunes to iPods, through their DRM.
Yeah that's the thing that put me off I-Tunes for a long time the fact that if I was to get a player other then an Ipod I wouldn't be able to play the music I had purchased on it.
Hey Chris, WAT!?
iTunes music was never limited to iPods. It played on millions of Macs and many more millions of PCs. You could easily remove the DRM if you wanted to. And the iPod has always played multiple formats of music, like MP3 and WAV.
@Chris
Uh you can't run the Palm Pre because of the lock on I-tunes. You obviously have the whole lock/DRM thing backwards. Its not the computer its the device that is locked.
The Council does not currently have official support from the country's Consumer Ombudsman as it did when it went after Apple.
Oh, really?
To quote your 2006 article "However, that complaint was apparently ignored without comment by Norway's Consumer Ombudsman." Not that the eventual(?) "Official Support" did them any good. I doubt this dispute will lead the industry, anywhere it's not already going.
The thing with the Kindle is that you don't actually own the books Amazon just gives you an unlimited licence to read them (read EULA). This is why they could delete those 1984 copies a few months back (they were providing a licence to illegal content so they had to) and why they can stop you accessing all of your purchased books.
It’s a bit like Blockbuster saying you can’t be a member anymore and taking away the films you have on loan (lifetime loan in Kindle’s case)
I for one like to properly own the media I pay for so won’t be getting a Kindle.
"In other words, Amazon could deny you access to all your purchased books if you make an illegal copy of just one -- unimaginable by brick-and-mortar standards where a Wal-mart could take your entire CD collection should you decide to rip a single disc."
I've heard the argument that copying music is not equal to shoplifting so why do you make the same comparison when it serves your interests?
y so srs, frnd?
I don't think that's the comparison being made. The comparison being made is making an illegal digital copy of a book vs making an illegal copy of a CD. He said, "Wal-mart could take your entire CD collection should you decide to rip a single disc." If you RIP a single disc you've received from them.... not if you walked out of the store with a CD in your hand.
There is no comparison made between shoplifting and digital pirating... stop being a tard.
Another interesting point is that it's legal to make copies for yourself of your own media in Norway; hence the whole problem with DRM :)
So in Norway, you CAN copy the CD you bought!
I must be understanding it the wrong way.. You're saying it's illegal to backup your media in the USA?
I feel I just stepped out of a hole after many years, after reading so much stuff about DRM and never knowing about this..
/actually, no sarcasm at all
Kudos to these guys for at least reading the EULA, and making people aware of its contents. It's better than assuming that standing up to bad corporate practices is futile. That Norway seems to care about its people might be part of the reason it is rated number 1 in the world right now.
#1 by what measure? (i'm not being sarcastic, i would like to know)
http://news.uk.msn.com/world/article.aspx?cp-documentid=150066216
"The annual Human Development Index by the United Nations Development Programme, takes into account life expectancy, literacy, school enrolment and per capita gross domestic product in 182 countries."
What's with the snarky tone of this article? Are consumer protections a bad thing or is it just that you don't think foreigners should interfere with American companies?
Nah, it's just that they went after iTunes/iPod's DRM bull sh*t in the past, so Engadget is eternally biased.
Agrred, the tone of this article really bloody sucks. Pissed me off. I don't really find it funny that (a) not many people give a shit that the Kindle EULA says 'we can change this whenever we want and fuck you, our customer, in the ass'. And (b) the people that do mind and highlight this shit, get laughed for their audacity at by a consumer mag.
As a Norwegian I can say that Norway probably has one of the best Consumer Protection laws in the world. 5 year "extended warranty" (not the correct term, in Norwegian it's "Reklamasjon") which is sort of a right to claim a (part)refund/change of item or such if the item is broken as a result of a manufacturing error. This also includes cellphones dying after 2-3 years. And the burden of proof is always on the producer/manufacturers side.
The consumer protection law also trumps any EULA. So if the EULA is contradicting the consumer law, the consumer law is always "right". An example of this is that you can (IANAL) install OS X on a non-mac pc without breaking any laws, because the consumer protection laws say that if you have bought it, you can do what you want with it (not including copying etc), trumping the clause in the EULA that says that you can't install OS X on non-mac hardware...
Bah... Whatever... I want the Nook anyway ;)
Christian W.
Og det er dager som i dag at jeg oensker jeg bodde i Norge i stedenfor USA...
Hey, Phenoum. Set the deal up, and I'll switch places with you :P
How can I apply for citizenship?
You forgot to mention that this has a little side effect. Everything is thus more expensive.
But I'd trade rights for price anytime!
@loocas
I completely agree. A+++++++
@Loocas No. Just no. Never think that you should have to pay some egregiously rich corporation for those rights you're born with. When they try to dictate rights to you, do not buy their products. The French Revolution had it right, and so does Norway:
"Men are born and always continue free and equal in respect to their rights. Civil distinctions can be founded only on public utility."
And I thank God for the customer rights laws in Europe, which pretty much stand up for customers in every European country. Every product sold here in Portugal, and I mean EVERY, including houses, cars, electronics, furniture, you name it, is obligated to have a 2 year warranty. If your new house ceiling cracks, you can get it fixed for free. If your laptop screen goes dead, you will, as written in national laws, get your laptop fixed in less than a month after being received by the retailer who sold you the laptop.
It's because the poster child up there is very snarky looking, and snark must be met head on!v Thank you Norwegian man for making us aware of potential EULA pwnage, but don't look like such a snot in your photo op.
and what are the chances of Thomas Ricker flying to Norway to take this photo?
It's probably a press shot that they dug up online you tool, they didnt want to use the good pic that the read link posted...
I'd love it if these guys would spend some time reading US Rental Car agreements - they would have a field day...
Wow just makes me want to stop shopping at Amazon. Let alone to buy a $hitty Kindle. Go Norway go. Hopefully they get everything thing that should have came from the US. The US should have flogged them but no either we are weak or we get paid off to much.
You have to admit, he does have some very nice glasses :P
And nice face too...
I would be his boyfriend if i could... =)
"Good luck with that."
Yeah, God forbid anyone should actually try and look out for consumer rights in the digital era. Let's just take what the companies choose give us. Thanks, Engadget!