@yulebellow I would leave if I had issues with AT&T but in NC I'm good to go....not to mention I like being able to pop out my sim card into another phone to switch on the fly....comes in handy when I go to the pool or beach that way I dont have to risk my iPhone getting jacked up and just use a spare I have....
How about letting people CANCEL their data plans???? If they don't want data, don't make them buy it. Some people have no need for data due to Wi-Fi access being readily available - or they just don't think an extra $XX is worth it for data. Give them the CHOICE. Imagine the weight that would be lifted off the network with that option.
If you aren't using your data plan they don't care, you are money to them. Why would they care if you are not using the plan and paying for it....CHA CHING....
I don't think that would work. If people are paying for a data plan and don't use it, they probably aren't using much data now. If they ARE using data now because they're figuring they might as well use it if they're going to be forced into paying for it, then I think a good chunk of those people will probably get hooked and decide to keep the data plan for the convenience even if it became optional.
And hey, maybe that's exactly what AT&T is hoping for with forced data plans....
The people who don't use data heavily are the ones AT&T want on their service, they pay for something they dont use and would be the first to drop the data service!! What AT&T would like is for those using data heavily to drop their data service, which isn't likely to happen.
Btw engadget, this comment system is garbage, the SUBMIT/POST button is missing when using IE8. Fix your system, for all the negative stories you post on other companies you have alot of house cleaning to do on your own front, and by alot I mean A LOTTTT!
@yulebellow I'm switching to Verison in July when my contract is up. Four reasons: Nil coverage in the Western US while on I-15, horrible customer respect and service, no streaming of my slingbox to my iphone, and ridiculous tethering fee's (I already pay 85 per month! why fork over another 65??)
@trainwrecka How about letting people get a plan with less minutes. For an iPhone family plan with two people, we have to pay for 550 minutes. We use under 200 every month, so we have something like 1800 rollover minutes at the moment. By dream plan would be a prepaid thing like Tmobiles sidekick prepaid, where you pay a dollar a day only when you use it for unlimited data & texting, and then if you ever have to call someone for some reason it's like 15cents a minute. But you can only use that with sidekicks, which suck.
Sorry I'm not jumping on the use firefox because it's cool bandwagon that many of the zombies on the internet do. IE8 works perfectly fine. It's the inability of website owners to code their websites properly:
Before engadget or another of you zombies blame IE how about fixing the problem on your website? 993 errors and 48 warnings with the w3c validator..
It's not IE or Firefox thats the problem it's the websites that are completely coded like crap. I've coded for all browsers and it's not that difficult to code for them all and follow the w3c exactly, instead of trying to make some fancy looking website that looks like garbage anyway get your basics right first. A form with a missing submit button is a basic.
@streetstealth you were right. I laughed, I cried, I threw my TP2 in the wastebasket and ran down to the local apple store...
But I liked the last paragraph best, where AT&T says "...when you run the numbers what you find is that we’re actually better off running a s***** network than making the investment to build a good one. It’s just numbers, Steve..."
@trainwrecka I totally agree with the logic here. Given customer a choice of opting in for data service or not is a great idea. Of course carriers don't like this because they make hand over fist dollars with data.
@trainwrecka It's possible to get a plan without data service, but if you get a subsidized phone they force u to get a data plan as a way of getting back their money. That also kinda shows that their actual cost for provided the data service isn't all that high. I dont mind paying more if I knew they were investing in capacity expansion.
@yulebellow Yeah, but when LTE shows up, with iPhone-type devices for Verizon, the defectors from AT$T would be legion. 3G crawl-out, embarrassing service, semi-messaging capabilities, and lack of insurance options have taken a toll...
@trainwrecka I whole-heartedly agree (and have been doing this since I joined AT&T...of course I don't have an iPhone...) However, I don't see this as being very likely, considering AT&T *JUST* implemented their policy of forcing ANYONE who buys a "smart"phone from them to also purchase a data plan.
I've had a smartphone with AT&T in some form for three phone generations now, and for over four years. You know how much data (counting text messages, of which I also don't have a plan) I have used since then? I don't keep track, but it has to be somewhere around 5-10MB. (have to text the few people that REFUSE to contact me any other way)
So why should I have to pay for a data plan? I have NO intention of ever using the data, though if I have to get a data plan, that will obviously change...only adding to their current problem. I actually have a big decision to make in a few months when my contract is up. I was happy enough using AT&T for phone services and the phone for non-Internet-related smartphone purposes, but now that there are no major service providers left that will let me forgo a data plan, I'm going to have to decide which one has the best data network.
I don't know which one that is yet...but I'm pretty sure I can tell you which one it ISN'T...
I'm seeing many comments here of people who don't want data plans at all. This will not happen with the iPhone because of Apple. This was one of their requirements when they gave AT&T exclusivity, they had to require a data plan for all phone contracts. If AT&T had not agreed to force everyone into an unlimited data plan, I'm sure we would see dataplan-less iPhones
I am a heavy data user - but I don't want to be. If they are going to make me fork out $30 then I'm going to take full advantage of it. I currently have my data blocked and no data plan, because the price my wife and I pay to check our email in the checkout line is a bit steep (for us, not for everyone). We really enjoy our iPhones for the calendar, camera, iPod and phone rolled into one slick package. None of which require data, but all sync back to our Mac.
sorry to say but you would have a valid point if at least microsoft or the microsoft IE8 homepage passed that test but quite frankly, mozilla.com (PASSED!) and firefox.com (1 error) are much better off on that w3c validator...
@fatslug so basically ATT wants a WIN-WIN on their side: ppl who use only a few MB per month while paying the premium data plan which they cant get out of... well i've got an idea, we, as customers, wants $15 unlimited plans on all phones and we want 3G ALL OVER PLACES WE TRAVEL, and NO ETF. i mean i really dont mind if ATT just put up 3G in my town and charge $30. but they havent yet and all the employees are trained to tell us "oh, ya they are working on 3G as we speak but there is just one part that needs to be order and everything should be up soon probably in 2 weeks or so!*BIG SMILE*" ... FML
@Hexydes Go with T-mobile. You can get even more plus for cheaper than most other companies and use the money you will save over 2 years to buy an unsubsidized phone. Plus there is no contract.
@trainwrecka If people don't need 3G data but are paying for it then they are tilting the scale in Att's favor (i.e. less likely to use it but are paying the same as anyone else).
It's the people that really need 3G data (and thus are more likely to hit the network hard) that are their problem.
Their business model assumes a bunch of people are paying and hardly using it, as all cellular business models do.
sad and devious. as ridiculous as text message pricing. when I AM paying for the data plan, I am one of those power users (purchasing iTunes songs, browsing YouTube, Facebook photos, Google maps like crazy, emailing photos, video, etc). When my data is blocked - I really don't miss it.
@yulebellow - Or, HOW ABOUT SOME OF THOSE NEW 3G FEMTO CELLS FOR FREE?! 1) It would save the customer money. 2) It would ease the burden on the network. How about that, "2 Birds, 1 Stone", Now SLAP IT HIGH!! ;^)...
@Gizmodawg Didn't AT&T change their ETF rules to read something like "even if we change something you still have to pay to leave"? Actually, I think the only way you don't have to pay now is if they increase the price or if they decrease a service area.
I'm sure if AT&T makes a change they will try to say it's a "new" plan with an increased price, the old plan still has the same price. Whatever their excuse will be I'm sure they'll get it correct legally, because it's worth millions.
I so hope that government tells these companies they cannot have ETFs anymore.
@All you people saying that you are forced to have a data plan
All you have to do is call them and give them the imei number of a different GSM phone, saying that your iphone got water damage (so they dont try to fix it). Then hang up, call again, cancel your data for your "non-iphone", and voila!
@ibopm i think you're missing the point. IE i pretty much the standard when it comes to web browsing, meaning, buy a pc/laptop and guess what browser is loaded on it out of the box, yeah, IE. That is a fact, that is the case, so why not just make it work? This site is also rubbish on IE7, btw.
@yulebellow. trouble is that iphone users can't go anywhere else right now. unless they want to unlock the phone illegally and pray nothing back happens.
my vote is that in areas with such problems they offer a rebate of $5-10 each month to all users whose usage falls under a preset range. something where you could check email a couple of times an hour, perhaps download a song or app a day etc and hit it. but those that are playing online games all the freaking time, or illegally tethering wouldn't.
@awk Big red does indeed rock the socks, but they have equally shitty customer service. It's a requirement to be a large telco company to have lousy customer service methinks.
@recharged95 It's not that we're using anymore data than the average iPhone user, it's that there are so many of us packed into 1 small space (ie: NYC/SF). The network just can't handle it. It's actually absurd that I pay for service this appalling.
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Offer to let customers leave without having to pay an ETF...that will probably free up lots of data, quick.
@yulebellow
+1
@yulebellow
+1
The notion that they're even discussing this at AT&T makes me want to leave.
For every gb you do not use, you get 50 cents towards the purchase of a future phone.
@yulebellow I would leave if I had issues with AT&T but in NC I'm good to go....not to mention I like being able to pop out my sim card into another phone to switch on the fly....comes in handy when I go to the pool or beach that way I dont have to risk my iPhone getting jacked up and just use a spare I have....
@yulebellow
How about letting people CANCEL their data plans???? If they don't want data, don't make them buy it. Some people have no need for data due to Wi-Fi access being readily available - or they just don't think an extra $XX is worth it for data. Give them the CHOICE. Imagine the weight that would be lifted off the network with that option.
@trainwrecka
If you aren't using your data plan they don't care, you are money to them. Why would they care if you are not using the plan and paying for it....CHA CHING....
@BBrase Actually, if they change the pricing on us and force us to choose a new plan, we can get out without an ETF.
Bastards.
@trainwrecka
I don't think that would work. If people are paying for a data plan and don't use it, they probably aren't using much data now. If they ARE using data now because they're figuring they might as well use it if they're going to be forced into paying for it, then I think a good chunk of those people will probably get hooked and decide to keep the data plan for the convenience even if it became optional.
And hey, maybe that's exactly what AT&T is hoping for with forced data plans....
@trainwrecka
The people who don't use data heavily are the ones AT&T want on their service, they pay for something they dont use and would be the first to drop the data service!! What AT&T would like is for those using data heavily to drop their data service, which isn't likely to happen.
Btw engadget, this comment system is garbage, the SUBMIT/POST button is missing when using IE8. Fix your system, for all the negative stories you post on other companies you have alot of house cleaning to do on your own front, and by alot I mean A LOTTTT!
@yulebellow
How about just having Fake Steve Jobs talk to them:
http://www.fakesteve.net/2009/12/a-not-so-brief-chat-with-randall-stephenson-of-att.html
(Really, this is the best editorial out there on this topic. You will laugh and cry.)
@streetstealth
YES! Finally! that link was down everywhere I tried
@yulebellow I'm switching to Verison in July when my contract is up. Four reasons: Nil coverage in the Western US while on I-15, horrible customer respect and service, no streaming of my slingbox to my iphone, and ridiculous tethering fee's (I already pay 85 per month! why fork over another 65??)
@trainwrecka How about letting people get a plan with less minutes. For an iPhone family plan with two people, we have to pay for 550 minutes. We use under 200 every month, so we have something like 1800 rollover minutes at the moment.
By dream plan would be a prepaid thing like Tmobiles sidekick prepaid, where you pay a dollar a day only when you use it for unlimited data & texting, and then if you ever have to call someone for some reason it's like 15cents a minute. But you can only use that with sidekicks, which suck.
@yulebellow that's because you were trying to access it on your iPhone.
@fatslug
IE 8? You've got more problems than just ATT my friend...
@Evan Tribley
Sorry I'm not jumping on the use firefox because it's cool bandwagon that many of the zombies on the internet do. IE8 works perfectly fine. It's the inability of website owners to code their websites properly:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.engadget.com&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0
Before engadget or another of you zombies blame IE how about fixing the problem on your website? 993 errors and 48 warnings with the w3c validator..
It's not IE or Firefox thats the problem it's the websites that are completely coded like crap. I've coded for all browsers and it's not that difficult to code for them all and follow the w3c exactly, instead of trying to make some fancy looking website that looks like garbage anyway get your basics right first. A form with a missing submit button is a basic.
@streetstealth you were right. I laughed, I cried, I threw my TP2 in the wastebasket and ran down to the local apple store...
But I liked the last paragraph best, where AT&T says "...when you run the numbers what you find is that we’re actually better off running a s***** network than making the investment to build a good one. It’s just numbers, Steve..."
classic.
There are just so many things wrong with AT&T, I don't know where to begin.
If AT&T were a car I would light it on fire and push it off a cliff.
@trainwrecka
I agree 100%!!! I'm in the IT industry and I'm near WiFi all day long. I'd love it if the carriers would allow you elect for no data plans.
@trainwrecka I totally agree with the logic here. Given customer a choice of opting in for data service or not is a great idea. Of course carriers don't like this because they make hand over fist dollars with data.
@trainwrecka It's possible to get a plan without data service, but if you get a subsidized phone they force u to get a data plan as a way of getting back their money. That also kinda shows that their actual cost for provided the data service isn't all that high. I dont mind paying more if I knew they were investing in capacity expansion.
@yulebellow
Yeah, but when LTE shows up, with iPhone-type devices for Verizon, the defectors from AT$T would be legion. 3G crawl-out, embarrassing service, semi-messaging capabilities, and lack of insurance options have taken a toll...
@trainwrecka I whole-heartedly agree (and have been doing this since I joined AT&T...of course I don't have an iPhone...) However, I don't see this as being very likely, considering AT&T *JUST* implemented their policy of forcing ANYONE who buys a "smart"phone from them to also purchase a data plan.
I've had a smartphone with AT&T in some form for three phone generations now, and for over four years. You know how much data (counting text messages, of which I also don't have a plan) I have used since then? I don't keep track, but it has to be somewhere around 5-10MB. (have to text the few people that REFUSE to contact me any other way)
So why should I have to pay for a data plan? I have NO intention of ever using the data, though if I have to get a data plan, that will obviously change...only adding to their current problem. I actually have a big decision to make in a few months when my contract is up. I was happy enough using AT&T for phone services and the phone for non-Internet-related smartphone purposes, but now that there are no major service providers left that will let me forgo a data plan, I'm going to have to decide which one has the best data network.
I don't know which one that is yet...but I'm pretty sure I can tell you which one it ISN'T...
http://operationchokehold.com/
Join the cause!
@yulebellow:
This is Apple's fault, in a way
I'm seeing many comments here of people who don't want data plans at all. This will not happen with the iPhone because of Apple. This was one of their requirements when they gave AT&T exclusivity, they had to require a data plan for all phone contracts. If AT&T had not agreed to force everyone into an unlimited data plan, I'm sure we would see dataplan-less iPhones
@all who replied to me
I am a heavy data user - but I don't want to be. If they are going to make me fork out $30 then I'm going to take full advantage of it. I currently have my data blocked and no data plan, because the price my wife and I pay to check our email in the checkout line is a bit steep (for us, not for everyone). We really enjoy our iPhones for the calendar, camera, iPod and phone rolled into one slick package. None of which require data, but all sync back to our Mac.
@fatslug
sorry to say but you would have a valid point if at least microsoft or the microsoft IE8 homepage passed that test but quite frankly, mozilla.com (PASSED!) and firefox.com (1 error) are much better off on that w3c validator...
@awk Ridiculous tethering fees? WTF are you talking about? At&t doesn't even support tethering on the iPhone yet, never mind charge for it.
@fatslug so basically ATT wants a WIN-WIN on their side: ppl who use only a few MB per month while paying the premium data plan which they cant get out of... well i've got an idea, we, as customers, wants $15 unlimited plans on all phones and we want 3G ALL OVER PLACES WE TRAVEL, and NO ETF. i mean i really dont mind if ATT just put up 3G in my town and charge $30. but they havent yet and all the employees are trained to tell us "oh, ya they are working on 3G as we speak but there is just one part that needs to be order and everything should be up soon probably in 2 weeks or so!*BIG SMILE*" ... FML
@Hexydes
Go with T-mobile. You can get even more plus for cheaper than most other companies and use the money you will save over 2 years to buy an unsubsidized phone. Plus there is no contract.
@fatboy
Don't like it ? Take a hike
@trainwrecka
If people don't need 3G data but are paying for it then they are tilting the scale in Att's favor (i.e. less likely to use it but are paying the same as anyone else).
It's the people that really need 3G data (and thus are more likely to hit the network hard) that are their problem.
Their business model assumes a bunch of people are paying and hardly using it, as all cellular business models do.
@COCOViper
sad and devious. as ridiculous as text message pricing. when I AM paying for the data plan, I am one of those power users (purchasing iTunes songs, browsing YouTube, Facebook photos, Google maps like crazy, emailing photos, video, etc). When my data is blocked - I really don't miss it.
@yulebellow - Or, HOW ABOUT SOME OF THOSE NEW 3G FEMTO CELLS FOR FREE?!
1) It would save the customer money.
2) It would ease the burden on the network.
How about that, "2 Birds, 1 Stone", Now SLAP IT HIGH!! ;^)...
@Gizmodawg Didn't AT&T change their ETF rules to read something like "even if we change something you still have to pay to leave"? Actually, I think the only way you don't have to pay now is if they increase the price or if they decrease a service area.
I'm sure if AT&T makes a change they will try to say it's a "new" plan with an increased price, the old plan still has the same price. Whatever their excuse will be I'm sure they'll get it correct legally, because it's worth millions.
I so hope that government tells these companies they cannot have ETFs anymore.
@fatslug
Run the Acid3 test on your beloved IE8 and get back to me.
http://acid3.acidtests.org/
I hope everyone is ready for the "service outage" on AT&T tomorrow.
@KeatMP Great Post Keat
@All you people saying that you are forced to have a data plan
All you have to do is call them and give them the imei number of a different GSM phone, saying that your iphone got water damage (so they dont try to fix it). Then hang up, call again, cancel your data for your "non-iphone", and voila!
@Brickster how will you know when the service is "bad"?
@ibopm
i think you're missing the point. IE i pretty much the standard when it comes to web browsing, meaning, buy a pc/laptop and guess what browser is loaded on it out of the box, yeah, IE. That is a fact, that is the case, so why not just make it work? This site is also rubbish on IE7, btw.
@yulebellow. trouble is that iphone users can't go anywhere else right now. unless they want to unlock the phone illegally and pray nothing back happens.
my vote is that in areas with such problems they offer a rebate of $5-10 each month to all users whose usage falls under a preset range. something where you could check email a couple of times an hour, perhaps download a song or app a day etc and hit it. but those that are playing online games all the freaking time, or illegally tethering wouldn't.
@yulebellow
You've had a lot of win comments recently... Just bought my Acer an hour ago. I know I had to fight to get rid of my termination fee.
@yulebellow
Totally agree, they should waive the ECF or even better...
Unlock the iPhone from the carrier if they go 2, 3 or 6 months of using less data.
@yulebellow
also i think they need to EXPAND ASAP!
@awk Big red does indeed rock the socks, but they have equally shitty customer service. It's a requirement to be a large telco company to have lousy customer service methinks.
@erik1080
Yes, Just cancel my old iPhone 2yrs sub.
I still can't understand what the heck are these iPhone users downloading in NYC and SF? I mean there's so much in videos and music streaming.
Of course unless they're jailbroken (which is then an Apple problem pushed onto AT&T).
@iroq d mullet
um yes, but, um, NO.
@recharged95 It's not that we're using anymore data than the average iPhone user, it's that there are so many of us packed into 1 small space (ie: NYC/SF). The network just can't handle it. It's actually absurd that I pay for service this appalling.