Already feeling the pinch of a mere 25GB per layer on a Blu-ray disc? Neither are we, but it looks like Sony and Panasonic have been busily working on ways to boost capacity nonetheless, and they've now devised a new method that seems to be on the fast track to becoming a standard. The best news is that it doesn't involve a change in Blu-ray optics, but rather something called the Maximum Likelihood Sequence Estimation evaluation index (or i-MLSE -- the "i' is just for kicks, it seems), which is a new means of estimating the read error rate of discs on the fly that has apparently be made possible thanks to "recent hardware advancements." According to Sony and Panasonic, that should now allow discs to hold up to 33.4 GB per layer, but it's not exactly clear what that means for existing Blu-ray players (a little firmware assistance seems to at least be a conceivable option, though). There's also no timeline for a rollout just yet, but Sony is reportedly now set to propose widespread adoption of i-MLSE to the Blu-ray Disc Association, of which it just so happens to be the leading member.
posted January 2nd 2010 10:27AM
the i stands for Index
This is an incredible development. It means that our PlayStation 3 gaming device would see expanded Blu-ray disk storage increase from 50G to approximately 67 GB. That is a 33.6% increase in storage. I guess we will get longer feature film footage in our games.
@Thinker:
Probably not
Game devs already are pushing their budgets to develop the games that would fill an entire dual layer blu ray.
The increase will affect movies, not games - or at least not this gen.
The great thing about standards is there are so many of them. I'll stick to down-loadable/streaming HD content, thanks.
@Unverified User
Hear, hear
@(Unverified) - Yea, good luck with that future 25gb Uncharted/GOW download. The pipes are too slooooow. Physical media ain't going anywhere anytime soon PERIOD!
@Unverified User
Two channel audio at low bitrates FTL!!
@Frankenstein Black Exactly. IV is a fresh 17GB. Enjoy that wait!
@N900
2.5 hours in my case wouldn't be bad. Although they would have to do pre-downloading like Valve did with HL2 for it to work.
@Frankenstein Black Have you heard of OnLive? Yeah, that doesn't require a large download, and mark my words: OnLive will be huge in a couple of years.
Excellent, now I'll need even fewer disks to store my porn collection on.
@nachotech You beat me to it
i-AGREE
@Chas Percodani
I see what you did, there...
@nachotech Or your porn collection can grow even larger, while occupying the same amount of space physically.
Can you make my 1 Liter coke bottle hold a gallon?
Kidding, I just find it funny how people manage to squeeze extra storage out of the same amount of spece.
@The Shadow
If only I could find a way to fit more data in my brain.
@The Shadow
Talk about memory cards, i remember a few years ago i was celebrating when i got a 512mb memory card for my nokia 6600
now you can get from 2gb-32gb and 64 coming soon too..
@The Shadow, the raw capacity of many media is much higher than the accessible.
IIRC, standard 700MB CD raw capacity is about 1.2GB. IOW 500MB is lost on extra info/dummy tracks/etc required to ensure readability of the useful 700MB after all possible minor problems the physical media might experience in the use. (I found that out after seeing that VideoCD files take ~1GB space on a 700MB CD - VideoCD allows for a higher error rates (broken video frames can be skipped) allowing it to use more of raw CD capacity compared to the normal data CD.)
Something similar I expect of the BD too.
@The Shadow The physical limit of media is often limited by factors other than physical space.
@Daniel Marrero
Fitting the data in may be the easy part. Using the data may prove to be the more difficult part.
Like stated in the article, who needs this much space. 50GB is clearly enough to put any kind of entertainment on at the moment. Games can mostly fit on 1 DVD like multiplats on 360, films really don't even need an SL Blu Ray disc at 25GB....
What's the point?
Tackle this problem when it arrives.
@Alex R
there are other uses to blu ray discs other than media, organizations can use them for archives, back-up and etc..
@Alex R when the problem arrives, people will say "why didnt they fix this years ago? didnt they expect people to eventually need more storage?"
"organizations can use them for archives, back-up and etc.."
Plain HDDs are much cheaper and much faster - especially at recovery.
I was evaluating something for my home back-up needs. I wanted to buy BD burner - before I have seen that 2.5 USB-powered HDD @ 500GB costs ~$80.... That bargain is hard to beat.
@Dummy00001
nothing starts ultra-cheap. eventually BD-Rs will become cheaper than HDDs, like DVD-Rs are now
@Alex R
Actually there a quite a few movies that fill a 2 layer Blu-Ray with the movie and audio and have to provide a second disk just for extras. Likewise there a number of games that fill a 2 layer Blu-Ray. So the time is coming when we'll be disc swapping with Blu-Ray while playing games.
@Alex R I'd like to be able to watch a full season of a show on one blu ray. I just rented Weeds season 3 on blu ray, which was on 2 disks. I have a 2 out at once plan, so if that was all on 1 disk, I could have something else out to watch too. That would pretty much double my money and the amount of time I have a movie vs it being in the mail.
@Dummy00001
1TB (re)drive was $90 at Frys recently.
@Alex R - yea, keep supporting the dumbing down of game titles because devs are forced to gimp em to fit the 8gb dvd media limit. Why do you want physical media? Because you want the game devs vision fully realized and not limited to satisfy an 8gb limit. WE WANT FUTURE KICK ASS GAMES THAT ARE NOT LIMITED BY OLD DVD 8GB MAX OR SLOW ASS DIGITAL DELIVERY PIPES. Physical media aint going away anytime soon!! NOW BRING IT SO IN THE NEAR FUTURE WE CAN WALK INTO GAME STOP WITH GOW3 TO GET A FEW BUCKS KNOCKED OFF OF THE NEWLY RELEASED GOW4 OR UNCHARTED 3 WHICH WILL PROBABLY BE CLOSE TO 30GB...
Until the price per GB ratio gets the same or better than DVD, what's the point anyway. And as for movies distribution, the idea of a particular media format being tight to a particular physical media format is soooo 1990s ...
@eviltwin
well, if you sign up for dvd rental services like lovefilm/blockbuster, blu-rays can be rented for the same price as dvds
@(Unverified)
Well, maybe in the US, but not where I'm from. Most DVD rentals were killed off by streaming during the last 3 years over here (central Europe).
@eviltwin . Not in Germany. Year ago I was looking into it, and most of streaming services were barely usable nor had any selection. I haven't looked into it since then, but the lack of reviews/comparison tells me that no worthy sites appeared in Germany yet.
@eviltwin
Sometimes one file exceedes the limit of a DVD, even with 2 layers.
So these disks will be around 35-40 bucks a pop, over their 20 buck older brothers? Thats mainly whats holding me back from using my blu-ray burner.
No one sane, cares about burnable media anymore. Its a dead market.
Pays off to just have them LIVE, on hd space.
Havent burnt a dvd in 3 years or more. And i have somewhere between 5000 to 10000 units.
They die quicker than hds also. No matter the bull pr spreads. Go check 10 old random cds/dvds from your collection... good luck.
Have around 17 teras and its way way better (and cheaper, and faster, and more confortable and more safe.)
@doutorpiranha I guess everyone who plays a modern video game console is insane then.
@doutorpiranha yea I would like to have a 17TB Server....but right now I'm stuck with my 4TBs and would LOVE to simply back them up on a BD Disc.....I mean you may have had issues with burned CDs and DVDs working years down the road but I still have CDs from '98 that I burned that still work fine and DVDs from '01 when I got my first DVD burner
I don't think it's worth it unless they double it. Don't release anything Sony until you can make 50 GB discs and 100 GB for dual layer Bluray
Does anyone feel that Sony is trying really hard to not lose to digital media? I'm not a huge fan of digital because I like owning the physical copy but I can't see Blu-ray winning this, or any physical media. I haven't bought a Blu-ray player and with the way digital is moving I don't think I will have to. Of all of Sony's mistakes, this one may be the one that takes them out.
@bigd7387
I think we are in agreement that media is better. I don't want compressed downloads - I want 1080p (or higher) and I want lossless audio. I have netflix and I got really irked that one of the movies I wanted was only available for download as I HATE downloaded movies from netflix. I want the MEDIA.
@boe
Hear hear to that! If you truly care about the quality of your image and sound physical media is still the only way to go. Until streaming services can guarantee no difference between the two I'll stick with Blu-Ray.
Also, there's currently no real way to own something digital that's as high quality as a Blu-Ray, not without a monster internet connection at least. Physical media is still the best option if you care about the viewing experience, digital downloads just aren't there yet.
@bigd7387
You do realize Sony does more the blu-ray, right? They aren't going to get taken out.
The price excuse is BS. You can buy blu-ray players for $100 and movies for $10 new.
Physical media will not die, don't you worry.
I saw about 3 quad HD resolution TVs at CES last year. I'd expect to see a lot more by 2015. I'm glad we are starting to think about higher storage capacity now before it becomes necessary as the prices for immediate fixes is often much higher than planned fixes. If the films are recorded in quad HD they will require significantly more storage space.
The only BR discs I'll consider purchasing are recorded AVC or VC-1 with lossless audio and I can't think of a single movie I want that isn't using a 50GB disc vs. a 25 GB disc.
And yes, I'll probably be burning BR discs for data transfers and backups so yes the larger capacity is welcome as I hate shipping hard drives.
Not enough to save the optical disc as a useful media.
Its 2010 Sony, time to wake up.
@rocklobster
Well the problem is optical disc is still the cheapest distribution method if you are trying to transfer large amounts of data and it's ubiquitous in that anyone can receive a disc in the mail.
@(Unverified)
Indeed, specifically as most of the world doesn't have the internet connection or the patients for downloadable media as large as a full 1080p movie with lossless audio.
Also, most of the world doesn't have an extensive download solution. No Netflix's in Europe, all we get is the iTunes store (which needs an Apple TV and only has 720p) and the Zune store on the 360 (which has limited selection and no options to own the media). And some places don't even have that!
The death of optical media may be obvious for some mediums (computer programs spring to mind), but not others as the internet speeds just are not up to delivering the same quality quickly.
@martynmcfarquhar What I fear is the iTunes scenario playing out all over again with our other media. Provide lower quality/compressed files for a smidgen less than it costs as a physical item and people gobble it up in droves.
Call me an old fuddy but I still buy CD's and rip them myself and keep the discs as master copies.
@rocklobster wake up to what?
why Are people so hard up to claim physical media is dead? i don't get it. lets stop and think for a moment rather than spit regurgitated hearsay.
the largest currrently offered ps3 system has a 250GB hdd. now youd be lucky to store 10-15 complete games at that size. and i for one always have more than that for any system. and if your system crashes? 250GB of downloads to fil it again? wow. no thanks.
and video. there is exactly 1 streaming service that supports 1080i streaming. and it looks OK. the video is still highly compressed and you lose much of the detail. so the winner here is again blu-ray. i dont like watching shifting blocks for all you people that like things just "good enough", go for it. but i prefer quality and as was stated before, physical media has the pipe beat hands down.
how many people do you expect to have internet connections to their tv's anyway? you won't see 90% penetration like that for quite a few years. i would say on the order of at least a decade.