MS developer talks tech, Natal 'correctly positions your hand even if it's held behind your back'
By Tim Stevens 
posted January 8th 2010 10:39AM
posted January 8th 2010 10:39AM
We now know that Natal is going to make it out before the end of the year (if all goes well), but the company is still keeping a lot of secrets about the technology and being rather stingy with hands-on time. Natal lead developer Alex Kipman is spilling a few notable beans, however, indicating that the team has gathered terabytes of photos and video of people playing games, amassing a library of data that the system uses to anticipate where you might move next. Because of this the system can predict your hand position, even if it's obscured, based on the location of other parts of your body. He also indicated that the software required for all this will only take up about 50MB on your Xbox's (probably near-full) storage device, and that the algorithms it uses will suck down about 10 to 15 percent of the 360's overall processing power. That's certainly a substantial hit, but this is the price you pay for getting to kick virtual balls with physical feet.
Nice Shirt.
@WestleyP
I want this tee
@WestleyP
Baby Demonoid
@WestleyP
+1
i want to know where to get that shirt..
@wako It's the "Infection" tee by Imperial Junkie.
"It's like a baguette!"
@WestleyP Here's a detailed explanation of how they got this to work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq9yj2pVWk&feature=player_embedded
@WestleyP
frank...from 30 rock?
@WestleyP
Lol, fugly shirt.
Can they guess which hand I'm hiding my wallet in?
@chaos
Right. I'm keeping my wallet in my pants until we get a actual date. Has anyone seen a date for this thing. I'm sick of this end of the year crap or fourth quarter crap. Why can't Microsoft give a date for once? It will be moved again and again like everything they put out.
@Tchaikovsky Your statement makes no sense. Without a date you can't but the damn thing anyway, so what does it matter if you're holding onto your wallet waiting for a release date? You have no choice if you want to buy it, and if you don't then you wouldn't be grabbing it anyway.
@avisgoth Not true. If we had a actual date it would probably be available for preorders. "The end of the year" does not work well for preorders.
Natal = HAL
Be afraid! I knows what your next move will be!
@kjb434 It has always been our dream to use our console without any controller with Natal, this dream could become a reality. Project Natal Dream Details: http://bit.ly/project-natal-will-change-our-world
But am sure, a guessing game isn't of the things enthusiasts are expecting with natal.. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDzXqK4fh-A
Never gets old.
@ChazClout
This is what 360 users can expect from this device.
@ChazClout
So a demo given 1.5 - 2 years before shipping is indicative (I know, big word, you may want to look it up) of the final version.
@NohOne1
It was only a joke you overly defensive XBOX defender. Personal attacks over a game console? How lamentable (I know, big word, you may want to look it up).
@NohOne1
It's a product from Microsoft.
The correct narrative to push is that it's terrible, even though all of the recent demos of the thing has shown it working flawlessly.
I wonder if there is still a contingent of people that still think the whole thing is staged?
@NohOne1
The only time anyone has been allowed to use this is when they are either in jump suits or a clean room. When they demoed this tech it was a huge failure on the stage. It borked. Why did it bork, because no matter how many times he rehearsed that move (which I am sure it was many times) they system still sucks.
@LAY
This isnt MS bashing these are facts. No one has seen this system work correctly in unsanitized conditions.
Why did Fallon have to wear the jumpsuit? So Natal could find him. Because otherwise it would not be able to differentiate between him and the background.
@LAY
I'm NOT a Microsoft hater. Did you look at the Apple avatar and start foaming at the mouth?
@glamajamma
Maybe because unlike in your house.. there where like 300 people behind him...
@ChazClout
I'm NOT a Microsoft hater. Did you look at the Apple avatar and start foaming at the mouth?
Well, I know that. ;)
You are one of the few Apple fans here that actually are rational.
I did respond to NohOne1's post without seeing your's in total context. Very sorry.
@LAY
Did you look at that video? They installed a white paper background behind Ina. Watch the video! They actually installed a temporary backdrop so their product would work. Why? Because picking out subtle human movement in a three dimensional space is incredibly hard, especially when you have thousands of unknowns in each users situation.
Your reply is fail.
@LAY No probs. :P
Happy ending ftw!
I agree with everyone here. Looks like more Microsoft vaporware. From what I've read, there's also a lot of lagg with this tech. And I saw the Half-Life demo and it was odd that Natal wasn't being used in a scene that featured any sort of fighting, just walking around. There wasn't even a crowbar!
I think Sony is going to have a more workable solution.
@ChazClout
First, my comment was more directed towards glammajamma - when you type using the engadget app on the iPhone (which, BTW, does not show images so I did not see your Apple logo) I hit reply on the wrong one.
As for you glamma, yes, they did have a whitebackground. Yes, on Fallon he wore jumpsuits (which he claimed were not necessary). There were also claims that Natal could not see people who were not white. There was a video a few days later showing Sugar Ray Leonard (which, if you do not know, is not white) using the system.
But here is the shocker - it was still a year and a half before it was released. A device shown in the early prototype stage does not have bugs fixed? Should we just assume that any product shown off before the official release is the version that will ship without any fixes? If that is the case, there are a lot of beta products released that are crap (including ones from the all mighty Apple).
And Sean - yep, you are right. It is vaporware and does not exist. Nothing to see here. This holiday season will pass without Natal, and Microsoft will put out a press statement saying "What? You believed us? You damn fool!"
@glamajamma Can I please see these FACTS you speak of. Unless you can provide documented evidence, you can not say FACT. However you can say, "I have made the observation"
@NohOne1
AAh. Apologies then NohOne1. The reply reads @ChazClout but I guess that is some kind of flaw in the Engadget app (I wouldn't know any different as us Android owners are still waiting - HINT ENGADGET PEOPLE).
Thanks for taking the time to clear things up!
@NohOne1
I was over at MS a few weeks ago on a tour, and this happened alot (avatar twisted into a ball). So... don't think they fixed that.
@ChazClout
This --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmtMHgRx9r8
@Sean Parker
Really? As was said before, all those videos with 18 MONTHS before release! A very early build! How many gadgets released howadays do we see working that well a whole year and a half before they are released? Reading all this CES news and hands-on they tell us things didn't quite work right, or was slow, or buggy, but hopefully will be fixed in 3-6 months when it is released. Imagine if they had 18 months to work out all the bugs??
And as far as the jumpsuit/background thing goes, I am sure it wasn't necessary, they were just trying to ensure the demo would go off without a hitch, because if it didn't work in ALL the demos they did just cause there were hundreds of people in the audience or thousands of flashes going off (both situations that are not real-world, in home), there would be no hype or hope and it would be labeled as a failure before it got out the door (much like many of you have labeled it without knowing really anything about the product or having actually played with it yourself)
And if you notice in the picture above, and the video from which it is pulled, he is wearing a WHITE T-shirt, in front of a WHITE background, and ofcourse he is white, all of this still a year(ish) before release date! I am sure it will be an awesome addition to the system!
I'd be interested in knowing what type of approach they are taking to the machine learning.
He looks stoned.
"being rather stingy with hands-on time"
Because outside a clean room or orange jump suits it doesn't work well. If I owned a 360 I would be pissed that MS took this route. This camera system will be the glitchiest piece of crap available.
The problem is they cannot program this system to accomodate the myriad of different situations users will find themselves in, in their living rooms.
@glamajamma
Don't agree. It's gonna be a motion camera combined with infrared camera and a normal camera. All in all it's gonna work better than that ice cone Sony is going to release.
@glamajamma
Oh I didn't know you were part of the Natal development team
@(Unverified)
And you are?
@glamajamma
Ok, you are the one talking with such authority, saying that the thing is so terrible, obviously you have some insider info. Have you used it?
Or are you just talking out of your rear?
@glamajamma
No I'm not, but I'm not the one making accusations that I can't back.
@(Unverified)
Well good for you. Don't believe anything until you see it. You can assume that the sun will rise tomorrow, but you haven't seen it yet, so I would not claim it will.
@glamajamma
That was completely irrelevant to the topic on hand. I don't have to see it to believe it, there are a lot of things I believe that I haven't seen. I know Eiffel exists but I've never seen it. My point was, you're saying a billion dollar company can't do something as if you actually know and understand the technology. Maybe you do, but I would assume not since you have yet to give specific reasons why it wouldn't work.
What is the reason for the pessimism? Why can't you just wait to see if it works when it comes out instead of writing it off as a failure? Do you really think Microsoft would be putting all this work into something so popular knowing it's not going to work?
@glamajamma
"This camera system will be the glitchiest piece of crap available."
In the context of what you're arguing, isn't that the same as saying "The sun will not rise tomorrow."?
@billyfarmer
My point being that we all make predictions everyday in life and from my experience, from what I have seen of this product, what I have seen of 3d camera recognition, I am saying this project will never work correctly.
Am I programmer on the Natal project? Nope.
I am also not a physicist but I will predict the sun is coming up tomorrow, and Natal will fail by December.
@glamajamma
"This camera system will be the glitchiest piece of crap available."
Really? Worse than the EyeToy that released 4+ years ago? You always make random, totally stupid and unfounded comments to start flame wars? See how many times you can get "downranked into oblivion"?
Because I have the camera for the 360, it is definitely not perfect, but is still kinda fun with family/parties doing "You're In The Movies", and it doesn't require special clothing or background, so I really don't get where all this pessimism and "bad press" in the comments section is coming from.
If you look at comments and reactions of ANYBODY who has SEEN it in person, or played it themselves, they have all said it is amazing, unreal, hard to describe, and seems to be promising. (Yes, are some glitches like "BAM!", but they have A YEAR to fix those minor flaws) And all the positive reactions outweigh the negative (with people who have USED or SEEN it) I am guessing 10 to 1.
@glamajamma Will 'never' work correctly huh? Well guys, we may as well just abandon technology all together. Obviously if it doesn't work GREAT the first time it is definitely NOT worth developing! Don't you have a bridge to guard??
@Brokinarrow
I don't know why this is being tagged as flaming or trolling. I just don't think this tech is going to work, and if I owned a 360 I would be pissed this was the avenue MS took.
"Well guys, we may as well just abandon technology all together. Obviously if it doesn't work GREAT the first time it is definitely NOT worth developing!"
Brokinarrow meet slippery slope
@glamajamma Seriously...stop while you're ahead..you're just makingyourself out to be a huge dbag. Go back and read your comments. You contradicted yourself using your madeup on the fly 'logic'.
Seriously...just stop.