@kojo87 i dont get where apple is coming from with the whole damn pad, what is it? why? no one needs a device like this nor wants one. its a huge supped up ipod touch. it lacks even the basic file system and hardware usb ports (like any crappy cheap netbook). so they are using brand image and tricks to appeal to the apple fan boys, i guess ....unfourtunatly for the rest of us that may work
@reader1 Excellent point, Apple is playing politics and fooling the open source rah rah crowd with FUD. Apple won't let Adobe optimize Flash Player 10 for Mac OSX (and hence the Cupterino claims they had to create a separate Safari process for 'plugins' (read Flash) because of crashes. It's astonishing to a technical blog like Engadget to fall for this room temperature IQ games Cupertino is playing. Apple *wants* Hulu to fail (Flash) and programs paid over iTunes as noted, etc.
Flash is not just video and action script is not just advertising. HTML 5 and the H. 264 codec are all about frickin' video. Apple is trying fork the Internet for its walled garden 'we know better than you' business model. (Confession - I am an all Mac/Apogee shop and program in Action Script and developed under Director back in the day).
But there is a reason H .264 *and* Flash run better under Windows - Redmond gives Adobe access to the APIs. (And by the way Masc fanboys, wonder why your pretty new Macs all come with sub par graphics cards? And why you can't just install a better one? Or why even the sub mid range ATI 4850 hasn't *been tested by Adobe on Macs?* Right. Cupertino won't open the kimono.
Adobe is not blameless but Apple is passive aggressive in causing much of the problem then screaming that there is a problem.
Admiring great Apple design is one thing. Marching like lemmings to their equally Redmond-like Borg-esque all blue and grey 1984 business model world is another. Instead of Wintel we now how Appoogle.
Where is Ridley Scott? We need a new commercial Ridley ! Stat !
@cashmonee You are right, it makes sense to sacrafice ACTUAL useability for stability, speed, and battery life. Doing two things at once, pfffft, SO OVER RATED.
@reader1 You obviously think you are much more intelligent than you actually are. We can understand what apple means, most of us just dont agreee with it. The browser is dead? You better put in a call to Google, as they are designing an entire OS around the "dead" browser.
@erik87 Agree the iPhone is the best all round smartphone and is truly revolutionary.
But, the iPhone was a smart phone and was never marketed as a device for the "best Web experience", the iPad is. Almost all games on the web use Flash and many many video sites and RIAs do and they would not load on the iPad. While this is not a deal breaker for the iPhone, it certainly is for a 'Web' device being touted as a netbook killer, but still would not load 75% of the movie sites and 99% of games freely available and ask me to pay for them on iTunes. Talk about totalitarian control! Apple seems to be heading the way of N.Korea.
@AlaskanHandyman So you blame Adobe and Flash for this, unstead of the content providers who push these adds at you. Blaming the tool, thats interesting. Do you also blame the manufacturer of your sound card when those adds start up with the sound on? Do you blame IE, or Crome or FIrefox or Safari when you encounter one of those pop up adds? Do you blame your internet provider, because, after all, they are the ones that deliver the content to your computer?
Blocking Flash is all well and good (not really, but whatever) but all it will really do is force those content providers and ad companies to speed up the development of those very same annoying ads in HTML5, and the dance will begin all over again.
@sfox8 that and all of the other video streaming websites, and fun, and happiness, and freedom.
something like this tried to happen in the bicycle industry...Shimano(probably the industry leader) began to make proprietary components that would only work with other shimano components. As a result the cyclist community said "no!" and the new line pretty much didn't sell, ending in shimano losing a lot of market share to sram and other competitors.
I think Google will be the clear winner here, they are friends with everyone, and a lot of their great stuff is free. Google = Freedom : Apple = Bondage
@xberxinfinity PS3 supports flash but Sony prohibits watching hulu content from a PS3 (the ps3 browser is blocked). This could be easily worked around if you could download a modded browser for the PS3. You can't but you could for Apple app store products.
I don't think it has to do with the AppStore games. There are tons of free games in the AppStore available for download. Also, whilst fun, flash game are still limited to fairly basic stuff so native apps will always be of interest. Check out GTA Chinatown Wars for the iPhone OS. Hardly available in flash.
@vectorbabe That's not flash content you're viewing on the iPod Touch / iPhone. It's actually mp4, and it's standard for the mobile version of youtube. They basically have the same videos in both mp4 and flv format.
@sfox8 Then why don't they forbid free games on the AppStore? 75 to 90 % of AppStore downloads are free, depending on whom you want to believe. Apple said many, many times that the AppStore is not a profit source, but a service to make their hardware more attractive.
The real reason why Flash is blocked by Apple is because it's proprietary and therefore out of Apple's control. Youtube und Vimeo are already offering Flash-free video with HTML5, and in a few years Kongregate and Zynga will come around with their games as well.
@mrkbrtn you don't think it would have made a substantial difference if they would have simply built a USB port in? No need to carry another dongle, and developers could assume it's there?
They included USB on previous models because they had to, it lost out to their license burdened Firewire and the rest is history. No doubt they'd love to get rid of it even though it was part of Mac taking off in the mainstream. Now they've got their dream device, with even their own CPU. Wanting to completely own their channel is in their DNA going back to the Apple II lawsuit days.
I wouldn't be so sour about it if the media didn't suck it up so badly, pretending they invented every category they enter.
@HotFuzz HTML5 may be the greatest thing the universe, but if most people use flash then it's pretty much worthless. IMO Apple not having flash is not going to bring about a new revolution of HTML5. They aren't that good
@grahamj The reason is portability. Flash will work on any platform (well except iPad) no matter what OS you are using. You don't need to have ton of codecs to decode various video formats. I think it's the the main reason behind success of online video.
@kojo87 The real issue is this: What has ADOBE done for Apple lately? Ever since OSX, Adobe has been one of the last vendors to support new versions, in spite of advanced access. Adobe's Mac versions have been slipping feature parity with Windows versions.. worse, they're not really doing new things with the tools OSX has implemented. Adobe has put it's Mac unit into "neutral" mode for quite a while now... they USED to be a premier partner, but they haven't done Apple any favors (or even shipped products in a timely manner) for a long time now. Adobe isn't even doing a good job taking care of their Mac customers like they used to.
What's in it for Apple? Adobe is barely keeping the Windows version out of the gutter between codex changes, cpu usage, and security problems. Their Mac version is even worse, why would Steve put that on something Apple is going to do all the work to push?
@sfox8 What many people fail to realize is that most flash games and video players were designed only with a mouse and keyboard in mind.
Take Hulu for example—Without a mouse, there is no way for flash to know whether you are hovering over over a program so it can show a popup with the program details. Also, the player controls disappear when your mouse is not over the video that is playing. So how would you be able to seek through the program? Even the pull-down menu wouldn’t work, because it requires the mouse to first hover over it.
Games are the most obvious example of why flash would never work on a touch screen device. Most rely on a combination of the mouse and keyboard. How frustrating would it be to have a game load and look totally functional on your iPhone/iPad only to have no way of actually controlling it. It would be extremely aggravating and confusing for most people using a touch screen device, because they would try to control the game by dragging or performing other touch gestures which flash simply would be unable to detect and react to (unless the games were reprogrammed solely for touchscreen controls).
I’m happy Flash is absent on the iPhone/iPad because it means that developers have to design their applications exclusively to use touch controls.
@kojo87 Remember when Adobe would not support Premiere on the mac hence Final Cut Pro, you can be sure that Job remembers. Guess having a gun to your head once is enough for apple.
Great breakdown especially when you highlight the fact that people have been clamoring for a browser on the 360 and MS hasn't budged and probably never will. Why do that when you can make people pay $50 a year to get access to content that some might think should be free.
And although Adobe promotes games on the web as a missing part of Apple's plan there's just no comparison to downloaded games. The majority of Flash games aren't meant for a touchscreen anyway. Most of them require keys for specific actions and/or a spacebar to jump. I get their argument for video and Flash-based sites but citing games is reaching.
Now that we've thrown 'em off the trail, use the form below to get in touch with the people at Engadget. Please fill in all of the required fields because they're required.
@kojo87 i dont get where apple is coming from with the whole damn pad, what is it? why? no one needs a device like this nor wants one. its a huge supped up ipod touch. it lacks even the basic file system and hardware usb ports (like any crappy cheap netbook). so they are using brand image and tricks to appeal to the apple fan boys, i guess ....unfourtunatly for the rest of us that may work
@reader1 Excellent point, Apple is playing politics and fooling the open source rah rah crowd with FUD. Apple won't let Adobe optimize Flash Player 10 for Mac OSX (and hence the Cupterino claims they had to create a separate Safari process for 'plugins' (read Flash) because of crashes. It's astonishing to a technical blog like Engadget to fall for this room temperature IQ games Cupertino is playing. Apple *wants* Hulu to fail (Flash) and programs paid over iTunes as noted, etc.
Flash is not just video and action script is not just advertising. HTML 5 and the H. 264 codec are all about frickin' video. Apple is trying fork the Internet for its walled garden 'we know better than you' business model. (Confession - I am an all Mac/Apogee shop and program in Action Script and developed under Director back in the day).
But there is a reason H .264 *and* Flash run better under Windows - Redmond gives Adobe access to the APIs. (And by the way Masc fanboys, wonder why your pretty new Macs all come with sub par graphics cards? And why you can't just install a better one? Or why even the sub mid range ATI 4850 hasn't *been tested by Adobe on Macs?* Right. Cupertino won't open the kimono.
Adobe is not blameless but Apple is passive aggressive in causing much of the problem then screaming that there is a problem.
Admiring great Apple design is one thing. Marching like lemmings to their equally Redmond-like Borg-esque all blue and grey 1984 business model world is another. Instead of Wintel we now how Appoogle.
Where is Ridley Scott? We need a new commercial Ridley ! Stat !
@kojo87 because, to prevent you from going on sites like hulu instead of buying things from their store
@eyhk Good one!
@cashmonee You are right, it makes sense to sacrafice ACTUAL useability for stability, speed, and battery life. Doing two things at once, pfffft, SO OVER RATED.
@reader1 You obviously think you are much more intelligent than you actually are. We can understand what apple means, most of us just dont agreee with it. The browser is dead? You better put in a call to Google, as they are designing an entire OS around the "dead" browser.
@erik87 Agree the iPhone is the best all round smartphone and is truly revolutionary.
But, the iPhone was a smart phone and was never marketed as a device for the "best Web experience", the iPad is. Almost all games on the web use Flash and many many video sites and RIAs do and they would not load on the iPad. While this is not a deal breaker for the iPhone, it certainly is for a 'Web' device being touted as a netbook killer, but still would not load 75% of the movie sites and 99% of games freely available and ask me to pay for them on iTunes. Talk about totalitarian control! Apple seems to be heading the way of N.Korea.
@AlaskanHandyman So you blame Adobe and Flash for this, unstead of the content providers who push these adds at you. Blaming the tool, thats interesting. Do you also blame the manufacturer of your sound card when those adds start up with the sound on? Do you blame IE, or Crome or FIrefox or Safari when you encounter one of those pop up adds? Do you blame your internet provider, because, after all, they are the ones that deliver the content to your computer?
Blocking Flash is all well and good (not really, but whatever) but all it will really do is force those content providers and ad companies to speed up the development of those very same annoying ads in HTML5, and the dance will begin all over again.
@sfox8 that and all of the other video streaming websites, and fun, and happiness, and freedom.
something like this tried to happen in the bicycle industry...Shimano(probably the industry leader) began to make proprietary components that would only work with other shimano components. As a result the cyclist community said "no!" and the new line pretty much didn't sell, ending in shimano losing a lot of market share to sram and other competitors.
I think Google will be the clear winner here, they are friends with everyone, and a lot of their great stuff is free.
Google = Freedom : Apple = Bondage
@xberxinfinity PS3 supports flash but Sony prohibits watching hulu content from a PS3 (the ps3 browser is blocked). This could be easily worked around if you could download a modded browser for the PS3. You can't but you could for Apple app store products.
@sfox8
I don't think it has to do with the AppStore games. There are tons of free games in the AppStore available for download. Also, whilst fun, flash game are still limited to fairly basic stuff so native apps will always be of interest. Check out GTA Chinatown Wars for the iPhone OS. Hardly available in flash.
@vectorbabe
That's not flash content you're viewing on the iPod Touch / iPhone. It's actually mp4, and it's standard for the mobile version of youtube. They basically have the same videos in both mp4 and flv format.
@kojo87
because it crashes constantly. duh.
Apple's Safari obviously has Flash, and they're actively disabled it because they don't want the iPhone browser crashing every 3 seconds.
@sfox8 Then why don't they forbid free games on the AppStore? 75 to 90 % of AppStore downloads are free, depending on whom you want to believe. Apple said many, many times that the AppStore is not a profit source, but a service to make their hardware more attractive.
The real reason why Flash is blocked by Apple is because it's proprietary and therefore out of Apple's control. Youtube und Vimeo are already offering Flash-free video with HTML5, and in a few years Kongregate and Zynga will come around with their games as well.
@mrkbrtn you don't think it would have made a substantial difference if they would have simply built a USB port in? No need to carry another dongle, and developers could assume it's there?
They included USB on previous models because they had to, it lost out to their license burdened Firewire and the rest is history. No doubt they'd love to get rid of it even though it was part of Mac taking off in the mainstream. Now they've got their dream device, with even their own CPU. Wanting to completely own their channel is in their DNA going back to the Apple II lawsuit days.
I wouldn't be so sour about it if the media didn't suck it up so badly, pretending they invented every category they enter.
@kojo87
HTML5 will eventually make this issue moot.
@HotFuzz
HTML5 may be the greatest thing the universe, but if most people use flash then it's pretty much worthless.
IMO Apple not having flash is not going to bring about a new revolution of HTML5. They aren't that good
@grahamj
The reason is portability. Flash will work on any platform (well except iPad) no matter what OS you are using. You don't need to have ton of codecs to decode various video formats. I think it's the the main reason behind success of online video.
@kojo87 The real issue is this: What has ADOBE done for Apple lately? Ever since OSX, Adobe has been one of the last vendors to support new versions, in spite of advanced access. Adobe's Mac versions have been slipping feature parity with Windows versions.. worse, they're not really doing new things with the tools OSX has implemented. Adobe has put it's Mac unit into "neutral" mode for quite a while now... they USED to be a premier partner, but they haven't done Apple any favors (or even shipped products in a timely manner) for a long time now. Adobe isn't even doing a good job taking care of their Mac customers like they used to.
What's in it for Apple? Adobe is barely keeping the Windows version out of the gutter between codex changes, cpu usage, and security problems. Their Mac version is even worse, why would Steve put that on something Apple is going to do all the work to push?
@sfox8 I feel Adobe's pain, but why bring Farmville as an example?
@sfox8 What many people fail to realize is that most flash games and video players were designed only with a mouse and keyboard in mind.
Take Hulu for example—Without a mouse, there is no way for flash to know whether you are hovering over over a program so it can show a popup with the program details. Also, the player controls disappear when your mouse is not over the video that is playing. So how would you be able to seek through the program? Even the pull-down menu wouldn’t work, because it requires the mouse to first hover over it.
Games are the most obvious example of why flash would never work on a touch screen device. Most rely on a combination of the mouse and keyboard. How frustrating would it be to have a game load and look totally functional on your iPhone/iPad only to have no way of actually controlling it. It would be extremely aggravating and confusing for most people using a touch screen device, because they would try to control the game by dragging or performing other touch gestures which flash simply would be unable to detect and react to (unless the games were reprogrammed solely for touchscreen controls).
I’m happy Flash is absent on the iPhone/iPad because it means that developers have to design their applications exclusively to use touch controls.
@kojo87 Remember when Adobe would not support Premiere on the mac hence Final Cut Pro, you can be sure that Job remembers. Guess having a gun to your head once is enough for apple.
@reader1:
Great breakdown especially when you highlight the fact that people have been clamoring for a browser on the 360 and MS hasn't budged and probably never will. Why do that when you can make people pay $50 a year to get access to content that some might think should be free.
And although Adobe promotes games on the web as a missing part of Apple's plan there's just no comparison to downloaded games. The majority of Flash games aren't meant for a touchscreen anyway. Most of them require keys for specific actions and/or a spacebar to jump. I get their argument for video and Flash-based sites but citing games is reaching.