What the heck, I know i'll get flamed but...the best safety is to live in a country where citizens don't feel the need to carry a deadly weapon to defend themselves from their fellow citizens. Fucked up.
@paul34 Its not that crime doesnt happen anywhere else. Haveing a gun gives an easy advantage to anyone holding one. See I can run faster than a fat man with a baseball bat but hand him a gun hes gonna get stupid. Id top a gun as more deadly than any melee weapon its kinda like cheating, just 2lb of pressure with your index finger and bam ya killed someone its far to easy.
@Rod "Best" is subjective, and many would argue that they prefer living in a country that isn't ruled by big government and fear of your neighbor to the point that even long kitchen knives are banned and every citizen is monitored by government surveillance cameras (UK).
Of course an irresponsible gun owner like this sure doesn't help respect for responsible law abiding citizens.
How the hell did he pass the concealed handgun license class?
Yes, you're right...this is a tech site after all. But, and it is a big but....why is it so hard to understand that a bill introduced in 1791, derived from a 12th century English law to protect it's monarchy in the absence of any army, is still a good idea today in modern America?
I'm not an anti-gun nut, far from, but the 2nd Amendment [i]really[i/] needs to be discussed for the benefit of all future Americans.
@RBRat3 Yes, a gun is a great equalizer and the only match for a gun. Since criminals can and do get guns, regardless of the fact that its not legal for them to carry a gun, and not every law abiding citizen is Chuck Norris that can roundhouse kick bad guys from across the room. ;)
@Rod "why is it so hard to understand that a bill introduced in 1791, derived from a 12th century English law to protect it's monarchy in the absence of any army"
Are you brain damaged? The right of the people to bare arms has nothing to do with protecting a monarchy and was not borrowed from the British. It was in response to government oppression by the hands of the monarchy, and the fact that it was the armed citizenry that was able to overthrow what they viewed as a tyrannical government using force.
This would not have been possible with foul language and middle-fingers, and so when framing the NEW government they did everything possible to ensure that it would not simply become a new form of tyranny on the people, and specifically allowing the people to bare arms and form a militia outside government control is one of the checks and balances to government and form of "power to the people".
@Rod Here in the UK, we need to defend ourselves against an increasingly repressive government and local councils. Don't believe me? Come visit* or check out a few blogs that are tracking all this. The police in some counties will not ENTER your house if you leave a window open over night - to supposedly shock you into closing it next time. And in another county, (and this may go national soon), the authorities can ENTER your house to check the sort of garbage you are discarding - if they suspect you're throwing too much away. Yes, this is really happening, and not something out of a dystopian novel.
*If you're freedom loving, do not even consider living here. Many of us want out, but are only stuck due to family or love of pubs. (What's left of them...) :(
A gun ban would have prevented this man from accidentally shooting a blackberry... yet it wouldn't prevented any of the hundreds of shootings that occurred with ILLEGAL handguns across the country that very same day.
@DC MIKE Assuming this guy was legally carrying the firearm.
Pretty sure accidental discharge in a public place is grounds for termination of his license as well.
In Texas at least, CHLs are treated like pilot's licenses. You are required to show physical and written proficiency in a minimum 10hr course (w/ rather frequently has to be renewed), and just about any infraction will lose you your license (even an unrelated offense like a DUI).
The problem with guns is that it abstracts people from an action leading to death. You know you've got problems if you can beat someone to death with a baseball bat, but anyone can pull the trigger in the heat of the moment without fully understanding the consequences.
Guns allow regular people to kill by taking away the brutality of the process.
No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter since as of the last census.
If concealed handgun permits were causing more "heat of the moment" homicides, it would have shown up in statistics by now. Instead, we have seen the exact opposite.
No-one carries in either Sweden or Switzerland, you moron.
Men, however, do have to do national service in the militia, in Swtizerland. It doesn't really have a standing army in the same way that other nations do. As such, each male househoulder who has completed their national service is required to keep an assault rifle in their abode. However, it's completely locked down and has tamper proof locks placed on it.
Quite a few people hunt in Sweden. Otherwise, that's it.
As far as I know, handgun ownership is practically nil in both.
@Ducman69 yeah right, thats why the criminal f***head bush was thrown over by people power. ridiculous. what a nonsense you wannabe-democratic fool! also, you didnt listen to what Rod said... NO rule made up HUNDREDS of years ago [for very good reasons] will be still make sense and should therefore be valid nowadays. period.
Oflife said "@Rod Here in the UK, we need to defend ourselves against an increasingly repressive government and local councils"
WTF? Let me get this straight - you're advocating the introduction of a right to bear arms in the UK so that you can use a gun to 'defend' yourself from a repressive government and local councils?!! You are 1 sandwich short of a picnic.
@bluefootedboobies Why does Switzerland need assault rifles anyway? They just go with the flow no matter what, and besides, they have swiss army knives. *uses bottle opener to pop open a beer and then files nails*
@Ducman69 You can throw statistics around all you want, a simple chart isn't enough to show the whole story. How many of those cases were fatal? I don't think it is fair to automatically assume that the number of fatalities is average across those groups. A violent crime can be anything from a threat, to a punch in the face, to a shot in the face. If we can make radical assumptions like you have, perhaps we can also conclude that the non CHL holders are being arrested for much more trivial things, where the CHL holders are really getting down to business.
@fuesse "you didnt listen to what Rod said... NO rule made up HUNDREDS of years ago [for very good reasons] will be still make sense and should therefore be valid nowadays. period."
So the entire constitution and bill of rights is antiquated BS in your opinion? Good for you, but the armed forces and private citizenry WITH guns are instructed to use force to protect this country from those that try to take away such freedoms guaranteed to the citizenry.
"I, ___ , do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
@Rod No @Oflife is a sandwich, a cake and a swarm of ants short of a picnic. @Oflife, I believe there are some excellent Pubs in the US so with absolutely no insult intended to the US p.o. over there you grade A nut-bag.
in my book, if you are going to carry a weapon - then you should be sober while doing so.
and if you're not - there should be some pretty stiff consequences.
we don't allow pilots to endanger lives by flying drunk, we don't allow drivers to endanger lives while driving drunk - seems reasonable to not endanger other lives by not carrying when drunk.
Every Conceal Carry Permit has rules, they vary by state, but they all have pretty uniform rules as far as where you can't carry. If it's a church, a paid event (concert, sporting event, etc) Or a place that sells alcohol. You can't carry there.
@paul34 I'm glad there are people carrying around guns in restaurants, you never know when zombies might rise... were they silver bullets in case of werewolves??
but i don't want a guy on a bender carrying in public, either. my safety should never, ever be jeopardized by someone carrying but not in control.
the whole rights vs responsibilities thing.
i mean, if a guy gets drunk and accidentally shoots someone, is it manslaughter because it was an accident? or more, because he knowingly armed himself and knowingly took away his judgment?
it sucks, because we'll probably end up having to find out the hard way.
"this here is the business end, you never ever point this at anything unless you plan on killing it, and this here is your safety, but really this *wiggles index* is your number one safety"
@rickster You are 100% correct, and in the CHL class (which I have to retake... AGAIN... ugh) they explain to you that not only can't you drink while carrying (duh), but the 51% rule (means if more than half of a business revolves around the sale of alcohol, you gotta disarm before entering... thus bars are a no-no).
I have no problem with that, as the same applies to just about everything that requires a license to prove proficiency. =)
@Ridgecity "I'm glad there are people carrying around guns in restaurants, you never know when zombies might rise..."
1) you really want a shotgun for the zombie invasion.
2) That famous Hupp chick advocate had her family shot in front of her at Luby's restaurant. The law at the time required her to keep her gun in her car, so she wasn't able to defend herself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
A freak circumstance, but even more rare are negligent manslaughter cases.
What's really messed up is that we ban many narcotics due to the fact that we think they'll have a bad effect on our society, and totally ignore the fact that something -actually- harmful like guns are allowed. Sure, people still find ways of obtaining illegal drugs, but there are more overdoses caused by things that are LEGAL.
Our government is enforcing standards made up for a time when the average gun could never have fit discreetly in your pocket, nor were they prone to causing easily preventable accidents like this. Pathetic.
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People who can't carry a weapon responsibly should not be carrying. It's too bad this guy didn't shoot himself instead.
@paul34
safety..... always off
@d889
Best safety is common sense and following the four rules... which this guy had none of and did not do.
@paul34
What the heck, I know i'll get flamed but...the best safety is to live in a country where citizens don't feel the need to carry a deadly weapon to defend themselves from their fellow citizens. Fucked up.
@Rod
+1
@Rod
With that, my friend, you have just opened up a can of worms.
At any rate, so you're saying crime never happens in any other country?
Actually, maybe you don't want to answer that. I don't want this comment thread to blow up into a big debate.
@Rod
This is the 21st century. Can't be too careful.
@Rod
In Sweden everyone carries a weapon
Its also one of the least criminally active countries
But don't quote me on that cause idk if it was Sweden or Switzerland...
@paul34
Its not that crime doesnt happen anywhere else. Haveing a gun gives an easy advantage to anyone holding one. See I can run faster than a fat man with a baseball bat but hand him a gun hes gonna get stupid. Id top a gun as more deadly than any melee weapon its kinda like cheating, just 2lb of pressure with your index finger and bam ya killed someone its far to easy.
@RBRat3
What is your point?
@Rod
100%
@Rod "Best" is subjective, and many would argue that they prefer living in a country that isn't ruled by big government and fear of your neighbor to the point that even long kitchen knives are banned and every citizen is monitored by government surveillance cameras (UK).
Of course an irresponsible gun owner like this sure doesn't help respect for responsible law abiding citizens.
How the hell did he pass the concealed handgun license class?
@paul34
Yes, you're right...this is a tech site after all. But, and it is a big but....why is it so hard to understand that a bill introduced in 1791, derived from a 12th century English law to protect it's monarchy in the absence of any army, is still a good idea today in modern America?
I'm not an anti-gun nut, far from, but the 2nd Amendment [i]really[i/] needs to be discussed for the benefit of all future Americans.
Enough said, I'll shut up.
@RBRat3 Yes, a gun is a great equalizer and the only match for a gun. Since criminals can and do get guns, regardless of the fact that its not legal for them to carry a gun, and not every law abiding citizen is Chuck Norris that can roundhouse kick bad guys from across the room. ;)
@Rod "why is it so hard to understand that a bill introduced in 1791, derived from a 12th century English law to protect it's monarchy in the absence of any army"
Are you brain damaged? The right of the people to bare arms has nothing to do with protecting a monarchy and was not borrowed from the British. It was in response to government oppression by the hands of the monarchy, and the fact that it was the armed citizenry that was able to overthrow what they viewed as a tyrannical government using force.
This would not have been possible with foul language and middle-fingers, and so when framing the NEW government they did everything possible to ensure that it would not simply become a new form of tyranny on the people, and specifically allowing the people to bare arms and form a militia outside government control is one of the checks and balances to government and form of "power to the people".
NOOB! :D
@paul34 i agree completely its people like this who give responsible gun owners a bad rap
@Rod Here in the UK, we need to defend ourselves against an increasingly repressive government and local councils. Don't believe me? Come visit* or check out a few blogs that are tracking all this. The police in some counties will not ENTER your house if you leave a window open over night - to supposedly shock you into closing it next time. And in another county, (and this may go national soon), the authorities can ENTER your house to check the sort of garbage you are discarding - if they suspect you're throwing too much away. Yes, this is really happening, and not something out of a dystopian novel.
*If you're freedom loving, do not even consider living here. Many of us want out, but are only stuck due to family or love of pubs. (What's left of them...) :(
@Oflife Correction to my posting! The police WILL enter your house etc...
@paul34
George Washington said it best when he opined that the best way to ensure a safe society, is to ensure everyone can be armed.
@Rod Food for thought.
A gun ban would have prevented this man from accidentally shooting a blackberry... yet it wouldn't prevented any of the hundreds of shootings that occurred with ILLEGAL handguns across the country that very same day.
@DC MIKE Assuming this guy was legally carrying the firearm.
Pretty sure accidental discharge in a public place is grounds for termination of his license as well.
In Texas at least, CHLs are treated like pilot's licenses. You are required to show physical and written proficiency in a minimum 10hr course (w/ rather frequently has to be renewed), and just about any infraction will lose you your license (even an unrelated offense like a DUI).
@paul34 Found an article: http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?section=news/bizarre&id=7275722
They were drunk and he is facing a third degree felony. What a douche.
The problem with guns is that it abstracts people from an action leading to death. You know you've got problems if you can beat someone to death with a baseball bat, but anyone can pull the trigger in the heat of the moment without fully understanding the consequences.
Guns allow regular people to kill by taking away the brutality of the process.
What the hell gun can't pierce a phone?
AND WHAT GOOD IS CARRYING ONE?!?!?
All of my guns go right through a phone! Even my .22LR at 100 yards!
@paul34
In Sean Connery Impression:
"I wonder if she got the message."
@trickards The government collects and publicly displays CHL statistics for all states, and has for decades.
A CHL holder is 7.7 times less likely to be arrested for a violent crime than the average citizen. http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.gif
No male Texas CHL holder was arrested for negligent manslaughter since as of the last census.
If concealed handgun permits were causing more "heat of the moment" homicides, it would have shown up in statistics by now. Instead, we have seen the exact opposite.
@Drybones5
No-one carries in either Sweden or Switzerland, you moron.
Men, however, do have to do national service in the militia, in Swtizerland. It doesn't really have a standing army in the same way that other nations do. As such, each male househoulder who has completed their national service is required to keep an assault rifle in their abode. However, it's completely locked down and has tamper proof locks placed on it.
Quite a few people hunt in Sweden. Otherwise, that's it.
As far as I know, handgun ownership is practically nil in both.
@Ducman69
yeah right, thats why the criminal f***head bush was thrown over by people power. ridiculous. what a nonsense you wannabe-democratic fool!
also, you didnt listen to what Rod said... NO rule made up HUNDREDS of years ago [for very good reasons] will be still make sense and should therefore be valid nowadays. period.
@Oflife
Oflife said "@Rod Here in the UK, we need to defend ourselves against an increasingly repressive government and local councils"
WTF? Let me get this straight - you're advocating the introduction of a right to bear arms in the UK so that you can use a gun to 'defend' yourself from a repressive government and local councils?!! You are 1 sandwich short of a picnic.
@bluefootedboobies Why does Switzerland need assault rifles anyway? They just go with the flow no matter what, and besides, they have swiss army knives. *uses bottle opener to pop open a beer and then files nails*
@Ducman69 You can throw statistics around all you want, a simple chart isn't enough to show the whole story. How many of those cases were fatal? I don't think it is fair to automatically assume that the number of fatalities is average across those groups. A violent crime can be anything from a threat, to a punch in the face, to a shot in the face. If we can make radical assumptions like you have, perhaps we can also conclude that the non CHL holders are being arrested for much more trivial things, where the CHL holders are really getting down to business.
@paul34
people in general should not carry weapons of any kind. Even a normally rational person has a moment of weakness.
@trickards And besides! I wasn't arguing against license holders necessarily, I was talking about guns in general.
@fuesse "you didnt listen to what Rod said... NO rule made up HUNDREDS of years ago [for very good reasons] will be still make sense and should therefore be valid nowadays. period."
So the entire constitution and bill of rights is antiquated BS in your opinion? Good for you, but the armed forces and private citizenry WITH guns are instructed to use force to protect this country from those that try to take away such freedoms guaranteed to the citizenry.
"I, ___ , do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
@trickards The statistics are extremely specific, and break down what type of assault including homicide with ages, race, etc. They are lower for CHL holders than the average citizen: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/demographics.htm
@Rod No @Oflife is a sandwich, a cake and a swarm of ants short of a picnic. @Oflife, I believe there are some excellent Pubs in the US so with absolutely no insult intended to the US p.o. over there you grade A nut-bag.
@Ducman69
i read that article too....
in my book, if you are going to carry a weapon - then you should be sober while doing so.
and if you're not - there should be some pretty stiff consequences.
we don't allow pilots to endanger lives by flying drunk, we don't allow drivers to endanger lives while driving drunk - seems reasonable to not endanger other lives by not carrying when drunk.
@rickster
Every Conceal Carry Permit has rules, they vary by state, but they all have pretty uniform rules as far as where you can't carry. If it's a church, a paid event (concert, sporting event, etc) Or a place that sells alcohol. You can't carry there.
@paul34 I'm glad there are people carrying around guns in restaurants, you never know when zombies might rise... were they silver bullets in case of werewolves??
@Ducman69
omg.
cant argue with you as you are so sharp-witted and intellectual.
@mkfrmn
i'm familiar with those laws...
but i don't want a guy on a bender carrying in public, either. my safety should never, ever be jeopardized by someone carrying but not in control.
the whole rights vs responsibilities thing.
i mean, if a guy gets drunk and accidentally shoots someone, is it manslaughter because it was an accident? or more, because he knowingly armed himself and knowingly took away his judgment?
it sucks, because we'll probably end up having to find out the hard way.
@paul34
"this here is the business end, you never ever point this at anything unless you plan on killing it, and this here is your safety, but really this *wiggles index* is your number one safety"
@rickster You are 100% correct, and in the CHL class (which I have to retake... AGAIN... ugh) they explain to you that not only can't you drink while carrying (duh), but the 51% rule (means if more than half of a business revolves around the sale of alcohol, you gotta disarm before entering... thus bars are a no-no).
I have no problem with that, as the same applies to just about everything that requires a license to prove proficiency. =)
@Ridgecity "I'm glad there are people carrying around guns in restaurants, you never know when zombies might rise..."
1) you really want a shotgun for the zombie invasion.
2) That famous Hupp chick advocate had her family shot in front of her at Luby's restaurant. The law at the time required her to keep her gun in her car, so she wasn't able to defend herself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
A freak circumstance, but even more rare are negligent manslaughter cases.
@paul34
If someone wants to play with weapons, they should join the army.
@Rod Sadly most desirable countries have violence problems of one sort of the other. Sounds like a oxymoron huh?
@Ducman69:
Correlation is not causation :)
@paul34 at least this news yields a good outcome, unlike this macbook which was shoot to death literally: http://bit.ly/macbook-gundown-israel-airport
@Rod
in Italy we use to kill ourselves without weapons...lol
What's really messed up is that we ban many narcotics due to the fact that we think they'll have a bad effect on our society, and totally ignore the fact that something -actually- harmful like guns are allowed. Sure, people still find ways of obtaining illegal drugs, but there are more overdoses caused by things that are LEGAL.
Our government is enforcing standards made up for a time when the average gun could never have fit discreetly in your pocket, nor were they prone to causing easily preventable accidents like this. Pathetic.