@ohanmer For sure.There are many mindless fanboys/fangirls out there who would buy anything apply sells. Until they come to their senses, apple will thrive.
Hey, some people like products that work well, then there are people, like you, that buy things simply because they have more bullet points. You're clearly more impressed with bullet points rather than whether or not any of those features actually WORK.
But hey, if you think only Apple Fans have bought iPhones and iPod Touches, I got news for you.
@magallanes You odviously have not spent much time using a iPhone, everything just plain works, I am not concerned with bells and whistles that other phones have, I just want it to work. Don't try to compare apples to oranges (No Pun Intended)
It's a marketing tactic to only sell using bullet points, and people fall for it because they don't consider how well any of those bullet points will work. Getting everything and shoving it into a cheap case does not make a great product, not by a long shot.
@Mrfox You can talk junk about Apple all you want, I did once upon a time... All that really says to an Apple product owner is that you haven't used their devices... They are more expensive but they just work...
I am a major geek love tinkering but, even I sometimes just want things to just work... Apple gives me that... My iPhone just works... My MacBook Pro just works... and hopefully my iPad will just work...
I have 2 Win7 (HTPC and gaming), 1 WHS, and 2 Ubuntu (development and testing) machines and I can't just relax and enjoy them... I always find and want to change something because they just don't work and feel right. I bought my MacBook Pro 4 years ago and I haven't tried to change one thing on it during that time...
You know why??? Because it just works like it's supposed to work!!!!!
@dxdragon I know what you mean! My ubuntu and win 7 pcs drive me up the wall, im always tinkering with them to get the best performance or ease of use and always just end up mucking them up, on the other hand i have an ipod touch which just works and does everything i want it too!
@Liquidmark yes because it has not been available for mobile products yet but it will soon the those smile will turn into frowns soon enough oh freedom how i adore the
@martynmcfarquhar Yep your right bullet points sell especially hardware bullet points... I started in hardware and I am now in software development and I can honestly tell you that I always thought the bullet points mattered. This is until I noticed that the reality is that the best hardware in the world doesn't matter if the software being used sucks...
People don't see the true value of good software they don't respect it like they do items they can physically hold in their hand and that is part of the problem.
One can only compare specs if the software (starting with OS) is the same so I can compare the specs of an iPhone 3G to an iPhone 3GS. However I can not compare a 3GS to any Android phone using specs...
"the reality is that the best hardware in the world doesn't matter if the software being used sucks..."
That is so amazingly true, yet -somehow- people think it's their job to find the one missing feature in the popular software, and completely forget what it -does- offer. Then they moan their ass off about it when wouldn't buy the product even if it was absolutely perfect in every way (in fact, they would then likely claim 'it's too perfect, and provides an inhuman experience' DX)
The iPhone -used- to be criticized for lacking MMS, a good camera, GPS, Apps, and video recording. As soon as they added everything these people complained about, they just latched onto something else, and do you know why? Because they -never- intend on buying it, and will instead always choose a cheaper option, as long as it has some feature not found on the expensive one. These people care more about being able to argue a point for their cheap purchase than actually owning something that will work, and that's just sad.
You sound exactly like the Palm Pilot fanboys of yore. "Sure, other devices do more, but Palm Pilot just works!" It was exactly what they said. And that did allow Palm Pilot to dominate PDA market for a few years. But eventually its limitations did matter and other devices passed it up and it disappeared from favor. Now we see many devices being introduced that do more than Apple's offerings, and Apple fanboys are reduced to "But Apple's stuff just works!" rhetoric. Eventually that won't be enough. It'll do for a few years though. iPad, lame as it is, will outsell all other slates/pads/tablets combined for a couple of years based on brand name alone. If iPad had been announced by any other company, it would've been dismissed already.
No doubt more than just Apple fanboys bought iPods and iPhones. If one wants to determine if someone is a true Apple fanboy, whether or not he/she bought Apple TV is a much more accurate barometer.
Average Apple fanboy rating of iPod purchasers is around 3. Average Apple fanboy rating of iPhone purchasers is around 4. Average Apple faanboy rating of Apple TV purchasers is 10 (more like 11). Average Apple fanboy rating of iPad purchasers, I speculate will be around 6.5.
But Apple fanboys are much more financially well off than the general population, so Apple can make tons of money just catering to them. Apple doesn't care that a substantial percentage of those that buy its products are fanboys. In fact, they like it.
@MollyC Is the fanboy rating before or after the purchase? The before rating should be lower and the 6 month post purchase should be higher. Most iPhone users were not Apple fanboys before they purchase the iPhone. After the purchase if they use the App Store they rate 6+ on the fanboy scale.
@Mmmm Donuts Hello, I'm an apple fanboy, I have an iPhone, the most expensive one at the time I got it, and I can't stand it, not getting an iPhone next.
@MollyC Let me see, If I owned a android, or a palm, or a winmo, or a nokia, you wouldn't be saying all that, right...right. There's no need to be so narrow minded. If you want a phone that does not work like it should, you have many choices.
@Liquidmark Symbian devices have had Flash enabled browsers since 2007, and they've literally controlled the mobile market by a landslide.
Just a little balance to your silly comment before. Apple does well in markets where mobile tech is still new, and people aren't well versed in smartphoning. Experienced users are expecting Flash support, and if you have a Maemo device, Symbian device, or a WinMo device with Skyfire or another Flash enabled browser, or even one of the few Android devices with Flash, you totally get why Apple will never be the device for the masses. It needs Flash blocked to necessitate app sales. Its just a big cash grab by Apple, taking advantage of the dumb crowd that only cares that "it just works", regardless if it has value, supports a standard, or could be done alot easier for alot less. Passive tech users are a threat to knowlede, prosperity, and universal content access for less affluent people.
Ill take my bullet points please i dont care if my device needs a tiny bit of tweaking if that means i get USB ports and flash at an EPICLY good price (i also hear it has a camera, can this been confirmed or denied?)
My friend owns a HTC hero, ive used it many times (playing games and stuff:P) and it 'just works' yet is actually good on the bullet point side too, i know that from using another of my friends iphones that, ok, they work, but would i side with one over a hero? no freaking way especially not when id have to pay almost double for the same kind of contract
@christexaport Newsflash - geeks such as yourself are not mass market. The average consumer is the mass market, and the average consumer is not a geek.
The 'dumb crowd' as you so eloquently refer to the mass market as, do not care for flash because the majority wont even know what flash is. That's got nothing to do with being 'well versed in smartphoning'
You cite flash as a reason for why Apple will never be 'the device for the masses' when I think what you really mean is Apple will never be the device for you because it doesn't have flash. I'm afraid you're in the minority on that one given that the iPhone is the single most successful smartphone of all time.
@GmanC "@christexaport Newsflash - geeks such as yourself are not mass market. The average consumer is the mass market, and the average consumer is not a geek."
I'm the antithesis of a normob from the mass market. But I think your perception of the mass market is faulty. I'll give you a primer: The mass market prefers Flash in the browser. All of the top OSes support Flash via a plugin or an alternate application. Only Apple does not, and they don't represent the mass market, just the mass US market.
"The 'dumb crowd' as you so eloquently refer to the mass market as, do not care for flash because the majority wont even know what flash is. That's got nothing to do with being 'well versed in smartphoning'"
Here's where you missed it. The "dumb crowd" is not the mass market, but my beloved home market in the US, which is behind the entire industrialized world in smartphone takeup and mobile technology. Despite your claims, most people outside the USA know a Nokia smartphone from 2007 can play embedded videos in the browser, and know an iPhone and most other smartphones can't.
We're getting closer in smartphone knowledge, but think about it. When tech analysts speak of smartphone market growth, they mention Brazil, Russia, India, China, and the US. Of those, the US is the only industrialized country. The rest of the industrialized world is well versed in smartphones and mobile tech.
"You cite flash as a reason for why Apple will never be 'the device for the masses' when I think what you really mean is Apple will never be the device for you because it doesn't have flash. I'm afraid you're in the minority on that one given that the iPhone is the single most successful smartphone of all time. "
No, I mean Apple will be hard pressed selling a media device that blocks 85% of the web's media content to more than 25% of the market in ideal conditions. Especially not when everyone else is adding the functionality to their devices.
Like Macs, the iPhone is for those with money to blow, little tech knowhow, and those looking for a turnkey approach. This is right up nascent US consumers alley today, but a smarter consumer will not prefer paying the most for less after awhile. You hear alot of people talking of upgrading FROM an iPhone, so the message is getting across.
The iPhone isn't the single most successful device (not even a smartphone by the definition most smartphoners subscribe to without multitasking...) of all time. It didn't even outsell the N95! And the iPhone is a platform, not a device. So compare ecosystems, not models. Is the Dell Inspiron the most successful PC, or is the success Microsoft's?
And how am I a minority on not favoring the iPhone? I prefer Maemo for my mobile computing, and Symbian for smartphones, LIKE MOST OF THE REST OF THE MASS MARKET! In fact, 83% DOESN'T prefer an iPhone, and that jumps to that jumps to 92% outside the US. Get your stat studying on, buddy...
@christexaport "Here's where you missed it. The "dumb crowd" is not the mass market, but my beloved home market in the US, which is behind the entire industrialized world in smartphone takeup and mobile technology. Despite your claims, most people outside the USA know a Nokia smartphone from 2007 can play embedded videos in the browser, and know an iPhone and most other smartphones can't."
Hate to break it to you buddy, but there is a world outside of the US and they dig the iPhone too.
Check out some stats from admob, for example. Now, let's just humour you for a second and take your viewpoint that the iPhone is only big in the US because it's dumb citizens don't know any better. We'll look at other areas of the world shall we? How about western Europe? According to AdMob, in 2009 they reported the following.
Q1 - iPhone OS had 57% share of the market Q2- 69% Q3 - 70% Q4 - 78%
Or how about eastern Europe?
Q1 2009 - 37% Q2 - 42% Q3 - 44% Q4 - 51%
In fact symbian is haemorrhaging market share in similar volumes to iPhone OS all over the world. iPhone OS is responsible for 36.3% of all smartphone internet traffic, WORLDWIDE.
Hmm, so if iPhone OS is being used the most to surf the internet, and this trend is increasing, all the while symbian is decreasing, what does that say about the users and how important flash is, given that the N95 and other symbian handsets have had flash all along?
HP has had plenty of time to fine-tune its finger-friendly TouchSmart software, and now, its newest model, the TouchSmart 610, ushers in a fresh design, highlighted by a hinge that allows the display to slide down and lie nearly flat.
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I wonder what would Apple say about this?
@Mrfox
Apple is too busy laughing to say anything
@Liquidmark At least it supports flash. Now, who's laughing!
@goopy
When you buy a Apple product then you are purchasing quality,power and exclusivity. (sarcasm).
@goopy One mere improvement does not topple apple's many.
@ohanmer For sure.There are many mindless fanboys/fangirls out there who would buy anything apply sells. Until they come to their senses, apple will thrive.
@goopy I don't think they will ever come to their senses because Apple brain wash then already :D
@goopy
Apple is still laughing as the lack of flash support has never hurt their sales in the past. lol they don't give a crap about flash
@goopy
Hey, some people like products that work well, then there are people, like you, that buy things simply because they have more bullet points. You're clearly more impressed with bullet points rather than whether or not any of those features actually WORK.
But hey, if you think only Apple Fans have bought iPhones and iPod Touches, I got news for you.
@Liquidmark You're absolutely right! I never knew douches would go that far...
@magallanes You odviously have not spent much time using a iPhone, everything just plain works, I am not concerned with bells and whistles that other phones have, I just want it to work. Don't try to compare apples to oranges (No Pun Intended)
@Liquidmark
+1
It's a marketing tactic to only sell using bullet points, and people fall for it because they don't consider how well any of those bullet points will work. Getting everything and shoving it into a cheap case does not make a great product, not by a long shot.
@Mrfox You can talk junk about Apple all you want, I did once upon a time... All that really says to an Apple product owner is that you haven't used their devices... They are more expensive but they just work...
I am a major geek love tinkering but, even I sometimes just want things to just work... Apple gives me that... My iPhone just works... My MacBook Pro just works... and hopefully my iPad will just work...
I have 2 Win7 (HTPC and gaming), 1 WHS, and 2 Ubuntu (development and testing) machines and I can't just relax and enjoy them... I always find and want to change something because they just don't work and feel right. I bought my MacBook Pro 4 years ago and I haven't tried to change one thing on it during that time...
You know why??? Because it just works like it's supposed to work!!!!!
@dxdragon I know what you mean! My ubuntu and win 7 pcs drive me up the wall, im always tinkering with them to get the best performance or ease of use and always just end up mucking them up, on the other hand i have an ipod touch which just works and does everything i want it too!
A touch with gps would be pretty sick though
@Liquidmark yes because it has not been available for mobile products yet but it will soon the those smile will turn into frowns soon enough
oh freedom how i adore the
@dxdragon
Here here!
@martynmcfarquhar Yep your right bullet points sell especially hardware bullet points... I started in hardware and I am now in software development and I can honestly tell you that I always thought the bullet points mattered. This is until I noticed that the reality is that the best hardware in the world doesn't matter if the software being used sucks...
People don't see the true value of good software they don't respect it like they do items they can physically hold in their hand and that is part of the problem.
One can only compare specs if the software (starting with OS) is the same so I can compare the specs of an iPhone 3G to an iPhone 3GS. However I can not compare a 3GS to any Android phone using specs...
@dxdragon
Precisely
@Atlantian
Flash is on Windows Mobile. Has been for quite some time. Oh look! WinMO hasn't taken over the Mobile OS Market... I wonder WHY?
@dxdragon
"the reality is that the best hardware in the world doesn't matter if the software being used sucks..."
That is so amazingly true, yet -somehow- people think it's their job to find the one missing feature in the popular software, and completely forget what it -does- offer. Then they moan their ass off about it when wouldn't buy the product even if it was absolutely perfect in every way (in fact, they would then likely claim 'it's too perfect, and provides an inhuman experience' DX)
The iPhone -used- to be criticized for lacking MMS, a good camera, GPS, Apps, and video recording. As soon as they added everything these people complained about, they just latched onto something else, and do you know why? Because they -never- intend on buying it, and will instead always choose a cheaper option, as long as it has some feature not found on the expensive one. These people care more about being able to argue a point for their cheap purchase than actually owning something that will work, and that's just sad.
@dxdragon "I can't just relax and enjoy them..."
You're doing it wrong.
@Mikeserena
You sound exactly like the Palm Pilot fanboys of yore. "Sure, other devices do more, but Palm Pilot just works!" It was exactly what they said. And that did allow Palm Pilot to dominate PDA market for a few years. But eventually its limitations did matter and other devices passed it up and it disappeared from favor. Now we see many devices being introduced that do more than Apple's offerings, and Apple fanboys are reduced to "But Apple's stuff just works!" rhetoric. Eventually that won't be enough. It'll do for a few years though. iPad, lame as it is, will outsell all other slates/pads/tablets combined for a couple of years based on brand name alone. If iPad had been announced by any other company, it would've been dismissed already.
@Liquidmark
No doubt more than just Apple fanboys bought iPods and iPhones.
If one wants to determine if someone is a true Apple fanboy, whether or not he/she bought Apple TV is a much more accurate barometer.
Average Apple fanboy rating of iPod purchasers is around 3.
Average Apple fanboy rating of iPhone purchasers is around 4.
Average Apple faanboy rating of Apple TV purchasers is 10 (more like 11).
Average Apple fanboy rating of iPad purchasers, I speculate will be around 6.5.
But Apple fanboys are much more financially well off than the general population, so Apple can make tons of money just catering to them. Apple doesn't care that a substantial percentage of those that buy its products are fanboys. In fact, they like it.
@MollyC Is the fanboy rating before or after the purchase? The before rating should be lower and the 6 month post purchase should be higher. Most iPhone users were not Apple fanboys before they purchase the iPhone. After the purchase if they use the App Store they rate 6+ on the fanboy scale.
@Mmmm Donuts Hello, I'm an apple fanboy, I have an iPhone, the most expensive one at the time I got it, and I can't stand it, not getting an iPhone next.
@MollyC Let me see, If I owned a android, or a palm, or a winmo, or a nokia, you wouldn't be saying all that, right...right. There's no need to be so narrow minded. If you want a phone that does not work like it should, you have many choices.
@Liquidmark
Symbian devices have had Flash enabled browsers since 2007, and they've literally controlled the mobile market by a landslide.
Just a little balance to your silly comment before. Apple does well in markets where mobile tech is still new, and people aren't well versed in smartphoning. Experienced users are expecting Flash support, and if you have a Maemo device, Symbian device, or a WinMo device with Skyfire or another Flash enabled browser, or even one of the few Android devices with Flash, you totally get why Apple will never be the device for the masses. It needs Flash blocked to necessitate app sales. Its just a big cash grab by Apple, taking advantage of the dumb crowd that only cares that "it just works", regardless if it has value, supports a standard, or could be done alot easier for alot less. Passive tech users are a threat to knowlede, prosperity, and universal content access for less affluent people.
@christexaport
So true
Ill take my bullet points please i dont care if my device needs a tiny bit of tweaking if that means i get USB ports and flash at an EPICLY good price (i also hear it has a camera, can this been confirmed or denied?)
My friend owns a HTC hero, ive used it many times (playing games and stuff:P) and it 'just works' yet is actually good on the bullet point side too, i know that from using another of my friends iphones that, ok, they work, but would i side with one over a hero?
no freaking way
especially not when id have to pay almost double for the same kind of contract
@christexaport
Newsflash - geeks such as yourself are not mass market. The average consumer is the mass market, and the average consumer is not a geek.
The 'dumb crowd' as you so eloquently refer to the mass market as, do not care for flash because the majority wont even know what flash is. That's got nothing to do with being 'well versed in smartphoning'
You cite flash as a reason for why Apple will never be 'the device for the masses' when I think what you really mean is Apple will never be the device for you because it doesn't have flash. I'm afraid you're in the minority on that one given that the iPhone is the single most successful smartphone of all time.
@GmanC
"@christexaport
Newsflash - geeks such as yourself are not mass market. The average consumer is the mass market, and the average consumer is not a geek."
I'm the antithesis of a normob from the mass market. But I think your perception of the mass market is faulty. I'll give you a primer: The mass market prefers Flash in the browser. All of the top OSes support Flash via a plugin or an alternate application. Only Apple does not, and they don't represent the mass market, just the mass US market.
"The 'dumb crowd' as you so eloquently refer to the mass market as, do not care for flash because the majority wont even know what flash is. That's got nothing to do with being 'well versed in smartphoning'"
Here's where you missed it. The "dumb crowd" is not the mass market, but my beloved home market in the US, which is behind the entire industrialized world in smartphone takeup and mobile technology. Despite your claims, most people outside the USA know a Nokia smartphone from 2007 can play embedded videos in the browser, and know an iPhone and most other smartphones can't.
We're getting closer in smartphone knowledge, but think about it. When tech analysts speak of smartphone market growth, they mention Brazil, Russia, India, China, and the US. Of those, the US is the only industrialized country. The rest of the industrialized world is well versed in smartphones and mobile tech.
"You cite flash as a reason for why Apple will never be 'the device for the masses' when I think what you really mean is Apple will never be the device for you because it doesn't have flash. I'm afraid you're in the minority on that one given that the iPhone is the single most successful smartphone of all time. "
No, I mean Apple will be hard pressed selling a media device that blocks 85% of the web's media content to more than 25% of the market in ideal conditions. Especially not when everyone else is adding the functionality to their devices.
Like Macs, the iPhone is for those with money to blow, little tech knowhow, and those looking for a turnkey approach. This is right up nascent US consumers alley today, but a smarter consumer will not prefer paying the most for less after awhile. You hear alot of people talking of upgrading FROM an iPhone, so the message is getting across.
The iPhone isn't the single most successful device (not even a smartphone by the definition most smartphoners subscribe to without multitasking...) of all time. It didn't even outsell the N95! And the iPhone is a platform, not a device. So compare ecosystems, not models. Is the Dell Inspiron the most successful PC, or is the success Microsoft's?
And how am I a minority on not favoring the iPhone? I prefer Maemo for my mobile computing, and Symbian for smartphones, LIKE MOST OF THE REST OF THE MASS MARKET! In fact, 83% DOESN'T prefer an iPhone, and that jumps to that jumps to 92% outside the US. Get your stat studying on, buddy...
@christexaport
"Here's where you missed it. The "dumb crowd" is not the mass market, but my beloved home market in the US, which is behind the entire industrialized world in smartphone takeup and mobile technology. Despite your claims, most people outside the USA know a Nokia smartphone from 2007 can play embedded videos in the browser, and know an iPhone and most other smartphones can't."
Hate to break it to you buddy, but there is a world outside of the US and they dig the iPhone too.
Check out some stats from admob, for example. Now, let's just humour you for a second and take your viewpoint that the iPhone is only big in the US because it's dumb citizens don't know any better. We'll look at other areas of the world shall we? How about western Europe? According to AdMob, in 2009 they reported the following.
source: http://metrics.admob.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/AdMob-Mobile-Metrics-Dec-09.pdf
Q1 - iPhone OS had 57% share of the market
Q2- 69%
Q3 - 70%
Q4 - 78%
Or how about eastern Europe?
Q1 2009 - 37%
Q2 - 42%
Q3 - 44%
Q4 - 51%
In fact symbian is haemorrhaging market share in similar volumes to iPhone OS all over the world. iPhone OS is responsible for 36.3% of all smartphone internet traffic, WORLDWIDE.
Hmm, so if iPhone OS is being used the most to surf the internet, and this trend is increasing, all the while symbian is decreasing, what does that say about the users and how important flash is, given that the N95 and other symbian handsets have had flash all along?
@MollyC
Well said!
@dxdragon But sometimes, 'just' ain't enough.