And we care why? Optical media had its day in the sun and now its in the twilight of its life. Expanding storage and options on these discs only increases the price of these discs and doesn't increase the usability, performance, or usefulness of the format. SSD are increasing in size and decreasing in cost, and bus speeds have increased to fare exceed the abilities of any optical media out there. Its not a matter of time before digital storage exceeds optical, because it already has, its just how long does it take for the solid state and digital storage medias to come down in price to make it possible for the optical technology to be retired completely.
@3dpenguin Yeah, I've ripped any data stored on optical discs to hard drives, and have taken out my laptop's DVD drive to save weight. In 8 months, I've still not had the need to put it back.
@3dpenguin so when your hard drive crashes when you watch a movie your screwed. Most people still prefer to have something to touch. only reason mps took off is there so small and quick to download. Also a lot people are trash and steal the music.
And a disc media brakes too, you're point is moot. Only persons who make the claims about disc media going no where because of "hard drive" problems are people who feel they've invested too much money in a particular format (Blu-ray) and are scared that they might have to start over. While the realists and pragmatists know the truth, optical formats are dying because of several reasons. First, their usefulness is limited, second, their competition is growing quicker than they can keep up, and third, its the way the industry is going. All the same reasons why Tape media has pretty much died.
No it's because people like to have something physical for their money. Streaming, HD, Flash - they have their strong points, but they pale in comparisson to optical media. If I'm going to spend $20 dollars on a movie, I want optical media that I can play anywhere that I so choose. Sure I'm still paying for the license to use it, but it can't be revoked or limited in any way. I don't want some file that I have to download, store, and worry about being able to use in the near future or where I want to use it.
I don't want my HD to crash and have to download all the terabytes of videos again.
I don't want a studio to decide they no longer want to allow people to watch a certain film and revoke the license because they hold the right to. My digital file will then not play, but they can't revoke the license on that optical disc.
@3dpenguin Ripping/Copying all your media into a HDD is like putting all your eggs into one basket. Sure, its nice for convenience's sake, but if/when that drive fails, you have to rip/copy/download it all over again, which is a monster pain. Streaming and downloads just can't match the raw bit rate and capacity of physical media like Blu Ray. And with ISPs being as stingy as they are with bandwidth, its going to be a long time before streaming or legit downloads can surpass physical media. And now, that goal is another step further.
And you're response doesn't make the position that Hard Drives fail any more valid in this situation, discs brake too, and more often than Hard Drives. Hard Drives and SSD have come a long way, Optical media is still less than 1/8" think and brakes in half at the touch of a child.
DVD Forum stated they saw the potential death of all Optical media by 2020 and a decline by 2015, they expected DVD not to last much past 2015 but thanks to another optical media being forced onto the consumers which supports DVD technology it will probably be around till Digital Solid State storage takes over.
"And with ISPs being as stingy as they are with bandwidth, its going to be a long time before streaming or legit downloads can surpass physical media. And now, that goal is another step further"
You are right with streaming but are completely and utterly wrong about downloads. 2k/4k theatres use content that has been downloaded onto high speed hard drives, not optical media. The bit rate is determined by maximum transfer rates, with a dedicated USB 2.0 bus it is possible to far exceed Blu-ray's maximum potential bit rate, even with a none dedicated bus with proper system set up you can exceed the bit rates offered by Blu-ray, yes it would take a long time using conventional distribution methods to transfer these movies, but with new technologies such as USB 3.0 and higher speed higher density USB devices that will change with the implementation of new distribution methods.
Check check the technology BDA uses. They use DRM on their discs and machines which through Firmware updates to your system can lock down the use of specific DVD and Blu-ray discs, they've been there for years. Also, I guess you've never used a media storage device for movie play back, they aren't that hard to move around, and they don't ear mark themselves to one system or TV, this is just the blu kool-aid Blu-ray supports have drank, and the great thing about a media storage device is I can carry 100s if not 1000s of movies around with me to play back where ever I like, while you and your 50GB or 100GB Blu-ray movies are stuck at places that have compatable players, so much for freedom of playback.
@3dpenguin Most theaters with digital projection get their movies shipped to them on (encrypted) hard drives; they don't download them.
Some do, but it's not commonplace yet. I only know of one in the Chicago area that downloads most (possibly all) of their movies, and it specializes in Bollywood movies.
Not everyone wants to take a thousand movies everywhere they go. Some of us have home theaters and are very happy with a Blu-ray disc sitting on our shelves that will not erase or become defective like all hard drives will eventually do. I had 100 or so movies on a Dish Network external drive that failed, and that was it. They don't allow for a backup. Most download services now in business will not let you transfer movies more than once. If your drive fails, you have to purchase the movie again (at least all of the sites I have seen deal that way). 24-hour rental periods, on-demand, so where are you going to get these thousand movies to keep transferring to different storage devices and what happens when your drive with the thousand movies fails?
For those who watch movies on the go, I am completely for movies on drives, but I guess I am happy with my Blu-rays at home in my home theater 150" screen, with the extras and the lossless audio on my 7.1 channel sound system, the only place I watch movies.
@3dpenguin Who cares what some high end theater is doing? Just because they have some insane fiber connect to get their content, doesn't mean a regular person does or will.
Learn what the term download means before spouting off things... Download is another term for transfer, the hard drives are cloned from a source copy, thus I am right they are downloaded. Yes, the drives are encrypted and shipped and cannot be used outside of a specific play back system protocol.
Blu-tards defend the format with the "hard drive failure" define, similar to the "Chewbacca Defense" only not as funny. Optical media has an optimal life span, less than 50% of optical media (CD/DVD) is expected to survive more than 15 years, and a percentage doesn't even last 2 years, Blu-ray follows the same rules as CD and DVD media so without testing, which BDA will not allow to be released if it has been done, its hard to say but those movies aren't going to last forever. Hard drives don't fail as often as the Blu-ray supporters may think they do, I work with computers and out of the 100s of computers I've worked with I've only witnessed a hand full of hard drive failures in 10 years. Hard drive failures often happen because of an ID10T error, people don't know how to handle them and then they screw something up, like plugging them into an unprotected power source. And as for your love of having those movies at hand on Blu-ray, you do know that it is expected that Blu-ray will only reach 50%-60% of the population, in comparison to DVD which reached nearly 80%-90% of the population. Thus fewer movies will be released over the life of Blu-ray. Blu-ray is not a cheap media, and the format doesn't offer any performance value for the cost, same went for HD DVD, the HD media isn't destine to replace DVD, its destine to be the last mass produced optical media though.
And yet you support a media primarly created by the Godfather of all DRM manufactures, Sony.
All digital has DRM and all DRM works exactly the same, it prevents systems which don't meet spacific requirements from playing it, it can be as simple as specialized formatting to a complicated series of routines which requires authorization to play back. Blu-ray's DRM is 10x worse than any DRM being tested to protect digital downloads. Blu-ray contains multiple DRMs several which are REQUIRED by BDA.
And yet, I've never had a problem, nor have I ever witnessed anybody having a problem, playing a blu-ray disc on any player capable of performing firmware updates. Playing digitally distributed content however has proven to be a nightmare for many. You buy and download the video and you're all of a sudden locked into playing it on that device. Want to watch it somewhere else? Guess what, you get to buy it again.
Don't want blu-ray? Rip them. Make your own files and store them all on a media server. Play them anywhere. You still own that original blu-ray should you ever need or want it and you can play it on any perfectly equipped blu-ray player.
"Optical media has an optimal life span, less than 50% of optical media (CD/DVD) is expected to survive more than 15 years, and a percentage doesn't even last 2 years"
Where you get that fact, I have no idea - as it's completely false.
What you forgot to mention is that 15 years is the low end of the spectrum for optical media. The lifespan expectancy is 15-200 years. That's a fairly huge gap, which also tells us, nobody really knows how long it will last. Find anybody with a CD collection dating back to when CDs first came into existence. If stored correctly in a case, those CDs are still working perfectly fine. That's well over 15 years by the way.
Where did I get that fact? From archives.gov. Direct from that source:
"These factors that relate to physical stability have been derived from accelerated aging experiments in which data are read/written to and from storage media under various environmental conditions. Useful media life is determined by measuring the number of errors (also known as "block error rates" or BLERs) for a particular medium over time, below a maximum acceptable level of read/write errors. On the basis of these types of experiments, manufacturers have claimed that the lifespan of optical media ranges from 15 to 200 years."
Yes and if you read on it stated that only 46% of the optical media tested met the 15 years or longer life span while a percentage only lasted 1.9 years under testing. So the common average life span of optical media would be between 2 years and 15 years according to the tests, these tests only tested stress related life span, the more you move the disc the more damage it takes, if the disc gets exposed to certain chemicals or even water... damage... children... damage... face it the optical media vs hard disc defence doesn't hold water and it never has. Keep your discs I don't really care, I'm not the one who's going to be rebuying them again in 5 or 10 years time after they ware out and the media has been replaced. And you have no clue as to what you're talking about with downloaded media, because right now there is no downloadable content player out there besides music players... and those are DRM ridden to prevent rampant sharing.
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And we care why? Optical media had its day in the sun and now its in the twilight of its life. Expanding storage and options on these discs only increases the price of these discs and doesn't increase the usability, performance, or usefulness of the format. SSD are increasing in size and decreasing in cost, and bus speeds have increased to fare exceed the abilities of any optical media out there. Its not a matter of time before digital storage exceeds optical, because it already has, its just how long does it take for the solid state and digital storage medias to come down in price to make it possible for the optical technology to be retired completely.
@3dpenguin Yeah, I've ripped any data stored on optical discs to hard drives, and have taken out my laptop's DVD drive to save weight. In 8 months, I've still not had the need to put it back.
@3dpenguin so when your hard drive crashes when you watch a movie your screwed. Most people still prefer to have something to touch. only reason mps took off is there so small and quick to download. Also a lot people are trash and steal the music.
@danhawk911
And a disc media brakes too, you're point is moot. Only persons who make the claims about disc media going no where because of "hard drive" problems are people who feel they've invested too much money in a particular format (Blu-ray) and are scared that they might have to start over. While the realists and pragmatists know the truth, optical formats are dying because of several reasons. First, their usefulness is limited, second, their competition is growing quicker than they can keep up, and third, its the way the industry is going. All the same reasons why Tape media has pretty much died.
@danhawk911
Easy have 2 hard drive
1 main hard drive and 1 back up hard drive, when 1 fails you got another hard drive with the same content
@3dpenguin "And a disc media brakes too, you're point is moot"
This is the worst English sentence I've seen in a while.
@3dpenguin:
No it's because people like to have something physical for their money. Streaming, HD, Flash - they have their strong points, but they pale in comparisson to optical media. If I'm going to spend $20 dollars on a movie, I want optical media that I can play anywhere that I so choose. Sure I'm still paying for the license to use it, but it can't be revoked or limited in any way. I don't want some file that I have to download, store, and worry about being able to use in the near future or where I want to use it.
I don't want my HD to crash and have to download all the terabytes of videos again.
I don't want a studio to decide they no longer want to allow people to watch a certain film and revoke the license because they hold the right to. My digital file will then not play, but they can't revoke the license on that optical disc.
Long live optical media.
@3dpenguin
Optical media is dying. Just not as fast as you think it is.
@3dpenguin Ripping/Copying all your media into a HDD is like putting all your eggs into one basket. Sure, its nice for convenience's sake, but if/when that drive fails, you have to rip/copy/download it all over again, which is a monster pain. Streaming and downloads just can't match the raw bit rate and capacity of physical media like Blu Ray. And with ISPs being as stingy as they are with bandwidth, its going to be a long time before streaming or legit downloads can surpass physical media. And now, that goal is another step further.
@SikSlayer
err, it's called a backup hdd
@psychoticgrape
And you're response doesn't make the position that Hard Drives fail any more valid in this situation, discs brake too, and more often than Hard Drives. Hard Drives and SSD have come a long way, Optical media is still less than 1/8" think and brakes in half at the touch of a child.
@cwalters74
Take out the already Blu-ray drive and replace it with the faster SSD.
@feepness
DVD Forum stated they saw the potential death of all Optical media by 2020 and a decline by 2015, they expected DVD not to last much past 2015 but thanks to another optical media being forced onto the consumers which supports DVD technology it will probably be around till Digital Solid State storage takes over.
@SikSlayer
"And with ISPs being as stingy as they are with bandwidth, its going to be a long time before streaming or legit downloads can surpass physical media. And now, that goal is another step further"
You are right with streaming but are completely and utterly wrong about downloads. 2k/4k theatres use content that has been downloaded onto high speed hard drives, not optical media. The bit rate is determined by maximum transfer rates, with a dedicated USB 2.0 bus it is possible to far exceed Blu-ray's maximum potential bit rate, even with a none dedicated bus with proper system set up you can exceed the bit rates offered by Blu-ray, yes it would take a long time using conventional distribution methods to transfer these movies, but with new technologies such as USB 3.0 and higher speed higher density USB devices that will change with the implementation of new distribution methods.
@Jordan
Check check the technology BDA uses. They use DRM on their discs and machines which through Firmware updates to your system can lock down the use of specific DVD and Blu-ray discs, they've been there for years. Also, I guess you've never used a media storage device for movie play back, they aren't that hard to move around, and they don't ear mark themselves to one system or TV, this is just the blu kool-aid Blu-ray supports have drank, and the great thing about a media storage device is I can carry 100s if not 1000s of movies around with me to play back where ever I like, while you and your 50GB or 100GB Blu-ray movies are stuck at places that have compatable players, so much for freedom of playback.
@3dpenguin Most theaters with digital projection get their movies shipped to them on (encrypted) hard drives; they don't download them.
Some do, but it's not commonplace yet. I only know of one in the Chicago area that downloads most (possibly all) of their movies, and it specializes in Bollywood movies.
@3dpenguin
Not everyone wants to take a thousand movies everywhere they go. Some of us have home theaters and are very happy with a Blu-ray disc sitting on our shelves that will not erase or become defective like all hard drives will eventually do. I had 100 or so movies on a Dish Network external drive that failed, and that was it. They don't allow for a backup. Most download services now in business will not let you transfer movies more than once. If your drive fails, you have to purchase the movie again (at least all of the sites I have seen deal that way). 24-hour rental periods, on-demand, so where are you going to get these thousand movies to keep transferring to different storage devices and what happens when your drive with the thousand movies fails?
For those who watch movies on the go, I am completely for movies on drives, but I guess I am happy with my Blu-rays at home in my home theater 150" screen, with the extras and the lossless audio on my 7.1 channel sound system, the only place I watch movies.
@3dpenguin Who cares what some high end theater is doing? Just because they have some insane fiber connect to get their content, doesn't mean a regular person does or will.
@3dpenguin:
I'm well aware that the BDA uses DRM on their discs.
But the DRM they use is a hell of a lot better than the DRM digitally distrbuted content uses.
@Gordon
Learn what the term download means before spouting off things... Download is another term for transfer, the hard drives are cloned from a source copy, thus I am right they are downloaded. Yes, the drives are encrypted and shipped and cannot be used outside of a specific play back system protocol.
@twister
Blu-tards defend the format with the "hard drive failure" define, similar to the "Chewbacca Defense" only not as funny. Optical media has an optimal life span, less than 50% of optical media (CD/DVD) is expected to survive more than 15 years, and a percentage doesn't even last 2 years, Blu-ray follows the same rules as CD and DVD media so without testing, which BDA will not allow to be released if it has been done, its hard to say but those movies aren't going to last forever. Hard drives don't fail as often as the Blu-ray supporters may think they do, I work with computers and out of the 100s of computers I've worked with I've only witnessed a hand full of hard drive failures in 10 years. Hard drive failures often happen because of an ID10T error, people don't know how to handle them and then they screw something up, like plugging them into an unprotected power source. And as for your love of having those movies at hand on Blu-ray, you do know that it is expected that Blu-ray will only reach 50%-60% of the population, in comparison to DVD which reached nearly 80%-90% of the population. Thus fewer movies will be released over the life of Blu-ray. Blu-ray is not a cheap media, and the format doesn't offer any performance value for the cost, same went for HD DVD, the HD media isn't destine to replace DVD, its destine to be the last mass produced optical media though.
@SikSlayer
No body has a high end connection fast enough to download 2TB+ of data in a timely matter.
Download means to transfer from one computer to another, it doesn't specify any method involved.
@Jordan
And yet you support a media primarly created by the Godfather of all DRM manufactures, Sony.
All digital has DRM and all DRM works exactly the same, it prevents systems which don't meet spacific requirements from playing it, it can be as simple as specialized formatting to a complicated series of routines which requires authorization to play back. Blu-ray's DRM is 10x worse than any DRM being tested to protect digital downloads. Blu-ray contains multiple DRMs several which are REQUIRED by BDA.
@3dpenguin:
And yet, I've never had a problem, nor have I ever witnessed anybody having a problem, playing a blu-ray disc on any player capable of performing firmware updates. Playing digitally distributed content however has proven to be a nightmare for many. You buy and download the video and you're all of a sudden locked into playing it on that device. Want to watch it somewhere else? Guess what, you get to buy it again.
Don't want blu-ray? Rip them. Make your own files and store them all on a media server. Play them anywhere. You still own that original blu-ray should you ever need or want it and you can play it on any perfectly equipped blu-ray player.
"Optical media has an optimal life span, less than 50% of optical media (CD/DVD) is expected to survive more than 15 years, and a percentage doesn't even last 2 years"
Where you get that fact, I have no idea - as it's completely false.
What you forgot to mention is that 15 years is the low end of the spectrum for optical media. The lifespan expectancy is 15-200 years. That's a fairly huge gap, which also tells us, nobody really knows how long it will last. Find anybody with a CD collection dating back to when CDs first came into existence. If stored correctly in a case, those CDs are still working perfectly fine. That's well over 15 years by the way.
Where did I get that fact? From archives.gov. Direct from that source:
"These factors that relate to physical stability have been derived from accelerated aging experiments in which data are read/written to and from storage media under various environmental conditions. Useful media life is determined by measuring the number of errors (also known as "block error rates" or BLERs) for a particular medium over time, below a maximum acceptable level of read/write errors. On the basis of these types of experiments, manufacturers have claimed that the lifespan of optical media ranges from 15 to 200 years."
@Jordan
Yes and if you read on it stated that only 46% of the optical media tested met the 15 years or longer life span while a percentage only lasted 1.9 years under testing. So the common average life span of optical media would be between 2 years and 15 years according to the tests, these tests only tested stress related life span, the more you move the disc the more damage it takes, if the disc gets exposed to certain chemicals or even water... damage... children... damage... face it the optical media vs hard disc defence doesn't hold water and it never has. Keep your discs I don't really care, I'm not the one who's going to be rebuying them again in 5 or 10 years time after they ware out and the media has been replaced. And you have no clue as to what you're talking about with downloaded media, because right now there is no downloadable content player out there besides music players... and those are DRM ridden to prevent rampant sharing.
@3dpenguin:
Once again, I don't know where you got that. I just went back and looked and nowhere did it state that.
Tell me, with all the optical discs in the world, how many of them fail after 2 years? Yeah....looks like it's a huge problem.