Editorial: Engadget on Microsoft Kin

If you've been following our reports, you know that Microsoft's Kin aren't your average smartphones. They don't have a big, bright screen, a particularly fast processor or a robust app store filled with thousands of third-party programs. They're just a pair of interestingly-designed phones with high-res cameras, running a MOTOBLUR-like OS that aggregates your social networks into a neat stream, while smartly documenting every picture, video and status update in cloud storage for future reference. What does that juxtaposition mean for the cellphone market? Honestly, we can't quite agree -- so we're going to let the roving, mobile minds at Engadget HQ speak for themselves.

Josh:

The Kin is perplexing to me, and doubly so due to Microsoft's recent announcement of Windows Phone 7 at Mobile World Congress (with a follow-up showing at MIX10). It was literally one month ago that the company was extolling the possibilities and benefits of its completely rethought OS, a ground-up, reboot effort from the Windows Mobile team. An OS which taps into the Zune ecosystem, plays Xbox Live games, is built around the concept of social networking integration (sound familiar?), will have rich apps and great options for developers, and is built for state-of-the-art hardware. So, how does the company move from its halo mobile devices to the Kin and have it make any kind of sense? From high-end, iPhone-stomping phones, to two devices which are seriously under-spec'd (4GB, really guys?), severely lacking in services (no apps? no calendar?), and questionably designed (uh, the Turtle). How does this make sense for Microsoft, and more importantly, the consumer? Is the Kin customer the people featured in the brand's advertising -- scruffy, savvy, urban twenty-somethings who love technology but don't want technology to get in the way of having a good time -- or is it for someone else entirely? And is that the point?

"There is a market out there for them, not nascent but actual, where apps and email and calendars sound like a hassle, not a feature."

Now, I don't identify with the folks in the ads, in fact, I'm not sure that anyone really does. They're like a faker version of Urban Outfitters hipsters, some copy of a copy based on an idea that never really meant anything to start with. And Microsoft doesn't just use The Hipster to sell phones -- they go one step further and cast actors as hipsters selling phones. That's the thing, though: we're not supposed to identify with them. But kids weaned on Gossip Girl and Jersey Shore? Kids who won't see through the marketing? As our friend Michael Gartenberg suggested to me on a phone call, "it's aspirational." Yes, aspirational, but not for us, and not for people who actually stay out late, drink, and burn their lover's old photos on a desolate beach. No, not for them or us -- the iPhone and BlackBerry users of the world. The people that actually need a phone to do real things. I think the mistake for us is in thinking that that's what Microsoft has in mind. I think they're aiming for a very different market, one that the editors of Engadget (and the majority of its readership) don't truly understand. Are they tweens? Teens? Probably both. And probably -- likely -- you have no idea what tweens and teens want in a phone. There is a market out there for them, not nascent but actual, a market where apps and email and calendars sound like a hassle, not a feature. A market where connecting via text and Facebook is the main course, not the side dish. A market that actually can't afford a $30 data plan and apps, even if they're cheap. A market made up of talking, texting, socially -- not networked, but connected -- kids out there that want something like the Kin in their life. And hey, when they grow up, after the gateway drug of Kin, they'll be ready for Windows Phone... at least that's probably what Microsoft is hoping.

The flip side? It's everything I see on the surface; misguided, underwhelming, way too short on features, and likely scrapped when (or if) Windows Phone 7 takes a foothold. Young consumers -- the spendiest of the spendy -- will cast their vote in cold, hard cash soon enough.

Paul:

So, the biggest question that comes to mind with Kin is "why?" It's not that Microsoft isn't doing anything interesting, it's just that they're giving out what basically amounts to a subset of what's going to be in Windows Phone 7. Why not just try to get Windows Phone 7 on as many screens as possible? Why fragment your development effort? Don't ask me. Still, taken on its own I think Kin offers some valuable, interesting approaches to the problem of social networking on a handset -- even if they're minimal and potentially half-baked. Basically, the idea of keeping in contact via email / SMS / status updates shouldn't be consigned to applications, instead they should be the essence of a modern phone (I'm hardly the young and hip target market here, but even I don't care much for actual phone calls). Microsoft seems to know this, though why they decided a phone should or could be only this is troubling. Oh, and the addition of Kin Studio for managing everything that's happening on your phone from your computer is just gravy.

The other thing I find really interesting here is that Microsoft is selling hardware. It's not in such a way to compete with their flagship third party handset builders (and again, I'm pretty sure that's a problem they should be facing now, not deferring), but it's phone hardware nonetheless. That puts these Kin handsets in the small realm of non-peripheral Microsoft devices that include the Xbox (great product, big win) and Zune (great product, big loss). Where it will fall is anybody's guess, but my money is on something much closer to Zune than Xbox. No matter how cool some of Kin's ideas are, the phones will still be too expensive (in either handset or service cost) to compete with dumbphones, and too feature-limited to compete with the iPhone.

Sean H.:

I've never owned a phone that wasn't "smart," and the moment I set eyes on the Kin I knew it wasn't the phone for me. Smartphones these days are customizable affairs where you can build a library of programs that assist you with every informational aspect of your life, when you have only to generate a use case and find there's already "an app for that," but the Kin doesn't have an app store. That said, the Kin One is the sexiest, most comfortable pocket camcorder I've seen in some time, with a fantastic little keyboard for captioning photos and sending status updates. If the powers that be intervened and let me use it on my existing unlimited data plan instead of having to purchase a new one (as Kin buyers surely will), I could see myself dropping a Kin One in my pocket just for personal lifestreaming purposes.

As for Kin's actual target demographic -- former Sidekick fans -- I think it all depends on price. If Microsoft and partner carriers can make Kin significantly more affordable than the iPhone, enough to tempt parents to pick them up instead, they just might have a winner on their hands.

Ross:

I've been doing everything I can to put myself in the place of Microsoft's target demographic when I think about Kin, because frankly speaking, it ain't me. I'll do what I can to ignore the press conference, but sitting in the audience waiting for more Savage Garden references, I felt like Microsoft missed a point. The company shouldn't be only be catering to the needs of the target demographic; it should, in fact, do all that and try to teach an audience new ways of using the phone -- as Apple has shown, people love the bells and whistles. How about some simplified augmented reality along the lines of Layar, something not too terribly taxing on the bandwidth... which brings me back to the crux of Kin, and a sentiment I expect will be repeated quite often.

"Great hardware, ever-expanding cloud-based storage... but really, its fate hinges on the upfront costs and the data plan."

Microsoft is going after the featurephone market with a device that requires you to upload every single video and photo, and barring some magic, those 5 and 8 megapixel party shots won't be making carriers too happy. If the upfront cost, or even worse the monthly data plan, is anywhere in the vicinity of smartphones, the much-beleaguered Palm Pre is gonna start looking much nicer -- say what you will about an uncertain future, at least it has games and an app catalog. Kin as a platform has a lot of great ideas -- ever-expanding cloud-based storage and a well-implemented gesture system, to name a couple -- and the hardware is absolutely gorgeous, but really, its fate hinges on the upfront costs and the data plan.

Tim:

I realize I'm in the minority here, but I kinda like the idea of the Kin. Sure, Microsoft's forced marketing angle just feels a bit weird, and it's easy to look down on a gussied up dumbphone that exists largely for the sake of making the process of menial tweeting that much easier. But, honestly, I think the idea for the Kin is a good one and that most of those who aren't getting it aren't supposed to get it. This is a phone largely intended for teens, and few outside of that demographic are really going to see any appeal here.

That said, the Kin Two is a little odd: too big for skinny jeans, and landscape sliders are a pain for firing off nine-char "C U there" texts. But, the Kin One has a fun looking design with cool functionality and the Kin experience as a whole looks really seamless. I think with some subtler marketing Kin could be a success, but the big problem isn't really about the hardware or software. Many of Microsoft's "Generation Upload" already have an iPhone, and are they likely to give it up for this? To find success Microsoft is going to have to make this thing cheap, like free with contract cheap, and that seems a little unlikely to me.

Chris:

It's easy to write off Kin as a failure -- it doesn't game, it doesn't let users (supposedly socially-connected ones) instant message, and it dares to argue that something as basic as a calendar isn't a critical app. As with everything, though, it's all about perspective. Despite what you may have heard, there's absolutely a market segment that Kin is capable of owning and turning on its end -- but in order to see that potential and to understand it, you've got to block everything you know about modern smartphones from your mind.

"The days when smartphones were geeky tools relegated to high-tech road warriors are long gone, and they aren't coming back."

The days when smartphones were geeky tools relegated to high-tech road warriors are long gone, and they aren't coming back. Devices like the iPhone, the Pre, and the upcoming flood of Windows Phone 7 hardware all squarely target the average aspirational consumer; these are phones we want to own not just because they're powerful, but because they're beautiful and trendy. That's a huge threat to the Kin's philosophy and raison d'être, because Microsoft is banking on the fact that kids -- perhaps the trendiest humans on the face of the planet -- don't have their eyes on an iPhone. They're assuming that the hundreds of thousands of teens with text-centric dumbphones (a category so big that AT&T has given it a catchy name, "quick messaging devices") will continue to buy and ask their parents for those same text-centric dumbphones.

That's a risky bet, no doubt about it, but it's winnable. The bottom line is that I think Kin's success or failure hinges on two things. Most importantly, Microsoft needs to be extraordinarily careful about how it positions and markets the product; it isn't complementary to Windows Phone 7, nor does it compete with any mobile product Microsoft has sought to compete with in the past (actually, I think that the company has already misstepped a bit here by attaching the "Windows Phone" name to it -- it should've been a total clean-slate campaign devoid of anything related to Microsoft or its other products). Tied into this is the fact that, of course, the pricing needs to be right. Kids and parents both need to be able to afford the product and its plans, which will need to run significantly less than what you'd pay per month for a full-fledged smartphone.

Secondly -- and this is more of a "big picture" thing -- Microsoft needs a story for keeping users in the ecosystem. Kin is an exceptionally tightly-focused product that will be very, very easy for users to outgrow, and right now, there's not much of a migration path between it and Windows Phone 7. Basically, it feels like Kin would serve Microsoft much more effectively in the long run as a "flavored" version of Windows Phone 7 rather than an architecturally unique platform -- but they're not there today, and in the meantime, the company risks seeing ex-Kin users move on to iPhones, BlackBerrys, and Android-based devices unless the pull of Zune Pass alone is enough to keep them put (we doubt it).

Will I be buying a Kin? No, and odds are good you won't be, either -- but to write it off as a product without a market is a bit premature. At this point, the ball is entirely in the courts of Microsoft's and Verizon's marketing teams to make sure we know exactly who these phones are for.

Darren:

It's kind of strange to think that Microsoft revealed an overhauled OS and two new phones just moments (it seems, anyway) after Windows Phone 7 wowed us all. Frankly, it feels a little bit like the Kin duo has been in the oven for a long, long time, and four years ago tweens were crazy about texting and little else. A lot has changed in the mobile world since; every teen I know wants either a BlackBerry, an iPhone or if they're really wild, an Android handset. No one I know wants a half-baked "texting machine." But in reality, smartphones aren't for everyone, and Microsoft is apparently aiming to satisfy those who aren't willing to shell out or put up with everything that comes with smartphone ownership.

The problem? A data plan is a data plan (today, anyway), and $30 per month is $30 per month. It's simple, really -- would you get more value from a $30 data plan on an iPhone, or a $30 data plan on a Nokia Surge? Which is really more capable of using data and data-intensive services? I'm honestly hoping that the Kin launch leads to a lower tier of data service -- something that was everywhere even when the original iPhone launched (remember that?). For an extra $5 or $10 per month for unlimited data, I could see a few teens picking up a Kin One or Kin Two for free (or close to free) on contract, but make no mistake -- Microsoft and Verizon are going to have price this right in order make waves. Demand $99 on contract for the phone(s) and $30 for a limitless data plan and you can go ahead and pack it up. There's just far too much competition, and far too much demand for smartphones, to play that card and hope for the best.

Thomas:

Let's get this out of the way: I'm not a fan of products targeting specific demographics. Pink for girls, blue for boys; Pixies for frazzled moms, and Droids for truck drivin' dads. And listening to Microsoft pitch the "upload generation" on Kin was like watching a floppy-skinned Larry King "chill" with his "home-boy" Snoop Dog -- awkward, painful, nauseating.

"If the Spot, Loop, and Studio elements are so spectacular, why not integrate into a variant of Microsoft's premier mobile OS, Windows Phone 7?"

Having said that, I'm a sucker for a slick user interface and novel but purposeful user experience. From what I've seen (not yet experienced first hand, mind you), the Zune Pass, Twitter, Facebook, and camera integration seem well conceived as does the web-based Kin Studio timeline. But why did Microsoft stop there? No 3D games to snack on, no app store of any kind? Did we slip into a celestial time suck and emerge back in 2007? And if the Kin Spot, Loop, and Studio elements are so spectacular, why weren't they integrated into a variant of Microsoft's premier mobile operating system, Windows Phone 7 OS? It's not like WinPho 7 has any legacy code to contend with for chrissake. Other than internal corporate politics and fiefdoms, I can see no other reason for Microsoft to purposely fragment its own user base. In what bizarre corporate strategy does it make sense to follow three parallel mobile OS development paths -- yes, 3, remember, Microsoft will keep Windows Mobile 6.x alive for corporate enterprises into the foreseeable future. Oh right, the Nokia model lazily fueled by MS Office and Windows riches. I'll be recommending WinPho7 when cruising the high schools come May.

Laura:

As a 30-ish year old woman, I'll admit that Microsoft is probably not targeting me with the Kin -- they're going for a hipper, more Urban Outfittered, less boyish looking version of me, say, 7-10 years ago. I'll also admit that there's something about featurephones that even to this day are attractive to me -- call it my hankering for the olden days, you know, when things were simpler and if you wanted to get an album you had to go somewhere, talk to a person in a store, pay for it with money, etc. So the fact that the Kin is not by any means a smartphone does not immediately make me chortle with disdain. There are a few things that I find intriguing here -- mostly the Kin Studio and Loop functions, which I think could be legitimate selling points to the phone. Design-wise, however -- well -- the fact that it reminds me of the LeapFrog Text and Learn probably isn't a good thing: the Kin just looks a little too much like a toy, and neither iteration is very attractive, in my opinion. That's probably going to hurt it. And then there is the marketing... which for me is just a bit... creepy. Not Palm lady creepy, but creepy in that the images we're presented with are of people whose "originals" I've yet to see walking the streets anywhere. Like they are merely someone's idea of youth and young people, rather than that reality itself. Now, I don't really expect realistic portrayals in marketing, but something about these "young people" seems to me, at least, to ring really false -- in a way that I think will also ring false to Microsoft's intended demographic. But hey, I'm old. What do I know?

Joanna:

My twenty-one year old sister is exactly who Microsoft has in mind to buy the Kin One and Two. Yep, she's a member of "generation upload" and is constantly (and I mean constantly) sharing what she's up to with her friends via Facebook, BBM, text messages and her IM status. Here's the thing though, her and all of her friends have smartphones.

"My twenty-one year old sister is exactly who Microsoft has in mind to buy the Kin One and Two. Yep, she's a member of 'generation upload'."

Surprisingly, most of them own BlackBerrys -- not iPhones for some reason -- and communicate all day long through BBM (BlackBerry Messenger for those that aren't familiar with the proprietary instant message software) and upload pictures to Facebook through the app. My young and beautiful sister also uses those inherent "smartphone" features, like the calendar to keep track of her classes and e-mail to communicate with our parents. And that's just it -- people in this age group haven't only grabbed a hold of smartphones, they swear up and down by them. I'm intrigued by the Kin and its flowy interface, but I'd bet you that my sister and her friends would be a lot more interested in a full fledged Windows 7 smartphone if forced to choose amongst Microsoft's newest mobile offerings. My guess is that for Kin or these "smart-dumb phones" to really take hold, the value has to be incredibly obvious to Gen Uploaders that want to save some cash for beer or clothes. And that's ultimately what Verizon and Microsoft have to do -- create an enticing balance of price and features -- to win over my smartphone-loving sister.

Sam (our intern):

Microsoft never ceases to amaze me. Immediately after the launch of Windows Phone 7 comes its Kin (yes, pun intended). As a proud former owner of a Sidekick LX, I'll gladly raise a glass of champagne to Danger, but the news of the Kin kind of makes me want to stop drinking altogether. The Kin One and Kin Two (whose names make me think of a death in the family) don't seem to be anything more than toys with a 5MP and 8MP camera strapped on. Sure, they keep you connected to all your social networks at once, but honestly, who really needs this? I've asked many friends my age (nineteen), and just like me, they get their Facebook and Twitter fixes with their laptops and current smartphones. My younger brothers (a freshman and junior in high school, respectively) both think the Kin is "overkill," and while it might be an ideal phone for people who want to be connected all time, the amount of people that would actually want that in a phone is probably somewhat limited. I think the straightjacketing and limitations that come with Kin devices are huge drawbacks -- but what offends me the most is the way the demographic targeted by Microsoft was portrayed at the Kin event. Microsoft made it seem that a majority of social network users are teenage or twenty-something hipsters who think that "Facebook is a second job" and enjoy "hanging out watching fat people eat burritos." Um... what? The way that Kin portrayed my age group yesterday made me feel ashamed to be a part of, well... my age group. I get my social networking done via my laptop and my iPhone, and I don't need my phone to document my night -- sometimes you just want actual memories.

[Apple Fan Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:06PM]

This phone is an embarrasmnt to Microsoft's image... It might have been cool 3 years ago.

[argenys Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:13PM]

@Apple Fan Dude, it's a feature phone not a smart phone.

[Archon Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:13PM]

@Apple Fan
I think your name says why you can't have an open mind to it.

[emopoops Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:15PM]

@Apple Fan oh well. this phone was bound to come out sometime. i mean its about as an embarassment as any other cellphone anyone has made! get over yourself!

[scottkrk Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:30PM]

Even if they gave this away on pre-paid, a classic case of 'too little to late.

It will be painful/embarrassing to watch another one of Microsoft's astro-turfing/viral campaigns to push this to the kids.

In 12 months time they will 'roll the features' into WP7

Imagine the money burnt on this project, it would make Palm look thrifty!

[tonyprince Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:31PM]

@Apple Fan lol idiot. The OS is microsoft, hardware is Sharp if im not mistaken. There have been a lot of shitty hardware made by companies who have used Windows Mobile OS from the beginning, so this is not the first time. You act like this is MIcrosofts entry to Mobile market. They have been around for a long time way before your iphone got its spotlight.

[ddicted Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:39PM]

I don't see why this devise is confusing so many people.

One, it is NOT a smart phone as referred to many times in the article.

This phone is for teenagers, plain and simple. I have a 14 yr old daughter and I bet she would love this thing. She couldn't care less about a damn calendar. Did you when you were in high school?

[GeorgeRobo Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:51PM]

@ddicted Well I'm 15 and love apps for the iPhone. Alright so I don't really use calendars or stocks but it's nice to have them just in case.

[robertvega81 Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:09PM]

@argenys its more like a phone that went to community college and got an associates degree 8)

[TheRogueFFAngel Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:10PM]

@Apple Fan

I love how people are trying to justify this disaster of a product.

Sorry but there's no child on the planet that would buy this phone. Unless MS is gonna be handing them out for free why the heck would ANYONE buy this shit?

When there are pres, pixis, backflips, moments, exclaims, lg envys, iPhones, hell even all those shitty android phones.

WHY?

[tekdemon Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:33PM]

@argenys I don't understand why people find this so hard to understand...it's for the exact same people who own sidekicks now even though plenty of smartphones exist...there is no change in the target audience so why so many bloggers are perplexed is beyond me.

[ddicted Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:33PM]

@GeorgeRobo
I'm sure you do, but as a parent I am not getting my 14 yr old a $200 phone.

[alexlipford Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:36PM]

@TheRogueFFAngel Let me guess...there is a smartphone sitting either in your pocket or on your desk right now?!? How about you pull your head out of your @$$ and look around next time you go out. Most of the cell phones you see people using are NOT smartphones. They are messaging/multimedia oriented phones such as the enV3, enV Touch, Rouge, and Chocolate Touch from Verizon's lineup, i.e. the phone the Kins will compete against. Truthfully, these phones are going into a MUCH bigger market than the smartphone market. These phones were not meant to be smartphones, or even compete against the smartphones.
With Verizon, these phones will require at $10/month data plan along with cell service. Now compare this to the $30/month data plan for smartphones. That is a savings of $480 over the lifetime of the contract.
Additionally, if you look at the people who use messaging/multimedia phones, i.e. the majority of the population, you will notice that these people DON'T USE CALENDARS OR APPS!! How can these be such a failure due to there lack of apps and, useless for the market segment, calendars when that is how all the phones in the market are....not to mention that if they did have these, then they would thus be classified as "smartphones" thereby negating the money saved and the luxury of being in the largest phone market segment in the world!
Think about the normal population and not the nerdy/geek population who wants nothing less than a smartphone and you will see what i am talking about!

[Veon Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:37PM]

Seems Microsoft's strategy for the lower end is to dumb down smartphones. It's pretty much the opposite of what Nokia, Samsung, Motorola, etc. are doing, which is to aggressively push their smartphone OSs to the low-end, smartening up what used to be feature phone territory.

I don't know which strategy will win, but personally I like it more when progress is done by adding features, not removing them...

[bjsguess Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:37PM]

@ddicted

You are right on. I sent out the UI videos to friends and family and asked for their input. All of them use dumbphones (with the exception of a few BB users) now. All of them are social networking freaks. They are single and a mixture of recently married with small kids. Without exception ALL of them were intrigued by the possibilities. They want an easy way to text, take pictures/videos, and upload. Say what you want about the iPhone, Pre, BB, etc - NONE of them can do these simple tasks as well as the Kin.

The Kin isn't for me but I think people are placing way too much emphasis on features and apps. Reality will kick in when two friends snap a photo of the same thing. One on a Kin and one on an iPhone. The Kin will have their picture floating on the major social networks in seconds while the iPhone user hunts and pecks through their apps. If you are the kind of person that does that kind of thing, your iPhone will stop looking so hot.

I think it's pretty simple - if your primary purpose is texting/emailing/pictures/videos and social networks there isn't a device that can hold a candle to this. If you are into other activities then yes, the Kin is not for you. MS needs to price it right ($99 or less) and Verizon needs to throttle their data charges (+$10/month).

[PastorTom Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:39PM]

@TheRogueFFAngel

I would never buy this, but I hardly see this as a "disaster of a product." Sure, it's only good for a couple of things, but so was the original iPhone, a phone that I loved. While I do believe it's a mistake to be targeting such a narrow market, IF this product can reach a few teenie boppers, this phone could do fairly well, which is probably all that MSFT is hoping for.

But I will say this; these phones have no shot if they continue to put twenty somethings in their ads.

Show some 12 year olds at a Justin Bieber or Myley (sp?) Cyrus concert, tweeting about what a great time their having, and I think they'll reach their target demographic much more effectively.

[BearCobra Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:47PM]

@TheRogueFFAngel
Heres the thing I don't think most people are seeing. Verizon already has millions of customers who own phones like the enV touch paying $30 a month for unlimited data. I know a ton of people, from 13 year olds to soccer moms who own that phone and pay for that just because they check out enough ringtones to go over the 25 MB limit on the $10 option. And I'm be willing to put money down that if you showed them an enV and a Kin 70% would take the Kin. Kin isn't meant to compete against the phones your talking about, because it can't. But if Microsoft is able to get its hooks into people, get them using Zune, before you know if you have a great feeder market for WP7.

[TheLukeSkywalker Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:49PM]

@Apple Fan :
Microsoft may not have been 3 years late.
But this is not a geek phone. [As long as it makes calls], I know a whole lot of people that just don't care about us geek's, geekerical stuff. But, with the 'upload generation', as Microsoft has labeled [can't stand], are all aspiring, or have, an iPhone. This is a cross road, and it's hard to see who really wants this phone.
Either way, Microsoft ad campaign scares me. It's WORSE, than Palm's creepy ads. Microsoft: Teens, and your upload generation don't run around stealing pizza [as disturbingly noted in the 'Studio' ad]. And encouraging people to break up and burn anything reminding them of the person they broke up with, and SAVORING the moment on your phone, is labeled evil. And that sort of thing is a sad moment, not a "doin' da supavillain laugh" moment. I can see a lot of parents that just don't want to give their kids a phone with an ad campaign that encourages stealing and breaking up. Sorry Microsoft. Hire ad companies like Apple's. Even if you hate Apple, their ads are magical. I watched the Macbook Pro BATTERY video, and I freaking wanted a unibody MBP.

[juanvaldez Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:51PM]

@ddicted No, I actually hated the ideas of calendars, they went in the way of chaos that was life and brought it into order with things like school days. However, I'm young enough to still remember those days, and phones targeted at teens are more likely to appeal to tweens. Teens want to have mature technology, whether or not they want to be mature themselves.

"I think the idea for the Kin is a good one and that most of those who aren't getting it aren't /supposed/ to get it. This is a phone largely intended for teens, and few outside of that demographic are really going to see any appeal here." - I think this comment is exactly the misunderstanding you are going to have if you are outside this demographic, it's a sexy device, but it wont wow anyone. So, you might be able to get the cast-offs and the cant-bes, the question is how large a segment is that actually. And if that is a large segment, is that why you felt you could omit games, one of the things children enjoy and have more time for than adults? Come'on, even though every teen doesn't like games, this will be a deal breaker for sooo many, you should've at least come up with an advanced hardware version that could've done something, maybe be app compatible with the zune but only buy games or something dumb. Perhaps more cleaver than I think in that maybe they can make this appeal but then when in the store convince their parents to get the one that plays their xbox live, I dunno.

[TSSaloic Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:52PM]

@scottkrk If this were a free phone (Or a $20-50 on Virgin) I would jump on it, it's the best feature phone yet. It's not a smartphone it lacks most of the niceties of modern smartphones. Yet it has Zune, and does some data (Not enough to be great, but enough to be adequate). In the end if you want something great or read Engadget you know Windows Phone 7 launches in the Fall/Winter and the Evo comes out this June.

[Dig Deep Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:58PM]

@Apple Fan

If the carrier requires a 30 or heck even a 20 dollar data plan these will fail miserably. The data plan is what keeps people from using the iPhone's, HD2's, Nexus One's and Pre's of the world. Not the phone price. They're practically free now.

I have a feeling these will fail.

[Wildman Posted Apr 13th 2010 9:05PM]

@ddicted
it's not a smartphone, but verizon is requiring a data plan on all its featurephones. in that sense, it's almost better compared to a smartphone (because you can get those for 100 bucks, which is where everyone is thinking these will be launched at). reread darren's two cents...

[Celz Posted Apr 13th 2010 9:20PM]

@Apple Fan

Hey Intern Sam.. If your 19 you shouldn't be drinking champagne or anything else.. Weed is cool but cristal and clicqout are no nos...

[loismustdie Posted Apr 13th 2010 9:22PM]

@ddicted You can get a good smartphone (Palm Pixi Plus) for $30 on AT&T and Verizon (I'm assuming you have one of these networks).
If on T-Mobile get a blackberry for $30.

If a smartphone costs $200, that means it's a super-phone, and those are for nerds and CEO's

[abedinthehouse Posted Apr 13th 2010 9:30PM]

@Apple Fan
For being a dumb-phone this is pretty damn smart if you ask me.

[torch29 Posted Apr 13th 2010 9:34PM]

@ddicted I agree.

Also I don't believe all that many teens have Iphones. I general most people I know dont't have Iphones and I'm 31. Most people I know have dumb phones. For those people like my who don't care about app this great.

Secondly, I help out at a community center and none of those kids have iphones. Only a couple have had ipod touches (both those kids broke them and wont be get another) and they didn't have that many apps. Another couple kids have actual Apple branded ipods. Every else something IDen, generic, or dumb(phone).

This is a great device if the upfront and monthly cost are low enough. My only thing is the hardware could look a little better.

Finally I really wish the Kin loop/studio stuff would integrated into WP7 because i like it. It would also help the path from the Kin to WP7 be clearer.

[Fruzion Posted Apr 13th 2010 9:39PM]

@Apple Fan

I just don't understand how so many companies don't see it. Apple sees it (or at least use too, pre iPad), Toshiba sees it (in the toughbook category at least), Sony sees it, and even HTC sees it.

If you make a good product you won't have to concentrate to a "niche" market. The tweens (what an awful term)/business men/fathers/ will come if you just do what they want *correctly* and *well*. It just seems stupid to me to create a product that specifically caters to an exact and extremely specific demographic. If you fail in that demographic you fail completely. It would just seem better, If I were microsoft, to throw the KIN team onto creating an amazing user experience and fantastic integration with social media on WinPhone7. They do that and the draw for "tweens" is already there. If they want something inexpensive for the "tween" (still hate that term) pocket, partner up with a handset manufacturer and slap slightly dumbed down WinPhone7 Social Media Edition (or just regular WinPhone7 with pre-installed social media apps) on a cheap phone.

This fragmentation of a risky product aimed at such a niche segment (a segment which Microsoft is clearly out of touch with, and if you ask me is not exactly the cool brand among their target) just doesn't make good business since at all.

Apple did it perfectly with the iPhone (at least once they got exchange support). They made a device which could appeal to all segments of their market at once. If you are a "tween" you have arguably the best Facebook/twitter/social media mobile apps out there (not to mention the all important iTunes/iPod integration). If you want calendars and email, great. They are there and easy to use. If you are a road warrior/business man you have an easy to set up and use email/calendar/roledex swiss army knife of business POWAH. Not to mention thousands of business specific apps. If you want the social media side, great. It's there too. My point is the iPhone can essentially (for the normal day to day consumer here) do everything, but is easily made to do what you need. If you can accomplish something like that you have cornered every niche market out there, without specifically targeting them with fake ads or even specific products.

Long story short: KIN doesn't make sense any way you look at it.

[Trashbat Posted Apr 13th 2010 10:43PM]

@bjsguess
wait until an embarrasing photo or drunken photo gets taken and watch them peck around for 20 mins trying to get photos removed from all social networking sites, then see which type of phone seems more appealing!!!

[techtheupdate Posted Apr 13th 2010 10:55PM]

@Apple Fan dude, you make dumbphones look smart...

[ddicted Posted Apr 13th 2010 11:06PM]

@Wildman

obviously cost is going to be the deciding factor as to whether this makes sense or not. If they can get the upfront and plan cost down to a point significantly below say an iPhone I think it can do well otherwise I can agree, what's the point. Still though, teens love that facebook shit, this seems to do that better than any phone out there, smart or not.

[Cy Starkman Posted Apr 13th 2010 11:18PM]

@Veon

Yeah sure but if progress is adding features in the end you will have so many features the spec sheet would be a book. Each feature also adds complexity, fragments dev funds, increases the chance of code errors and makes for more help desk.

What IT lovers seems to fail in recognising is that the sign of success for a tool is that it doesn't really change, it just is what it is.

Companies that make hammers and drills aren't going broke because next years hammer still works the same and offers the same features as this years hammer. This isn't even an analogy, its simply tools.

I'm sure some century or two ago the hammer was in flux as a design but that's long finished. Thing is, you buy a tool and use it, then it maybe breaks, wears out, you lose it or need more than one maybe because of a new employee.

That the IT industry is still based on adding features just indicates that it's a kiddy as a tool for humans, it's not actually right yet, still in beta.

Can you seriously imagine any actual tool we use as a society radically changing how you interface with it every two years. It's freaking stupid.

XP vs Win7. Do you actually do anything new (not different) with Win7 (not your better graphics card unrelated to Win7), unlikely. The only thing you had to do was relearn where everything was. This is not progress, it's a waste of time.

Time for IT to grow the hell up so we can get on working with stable tools as opposed to spending most of our time re-figuring out how to work it.

To relate back into the article, the Kin, well it's simple, does its various jobs and that's it. I wouldn't have one but I reckon it's a good thing. To really get everyone fired up, I actually look forward to desktop OS's becoming more like iPhone and Kin it is actually the way forward and it's not a dumbing down, it's a freeing up of our time to get on with using the tools.

Shuffling 20 application windows around on a desktop because I am multitasking is slow and just bloody stupid. The amount of time wasted just moving the colour of pixels around so you can see other coloured pixels is primitive.

Whew, that rant feels finished enough for the time being.

[kspraydad Posted Apr 14th 2010 12:03AM]

@ddicted Helped me keep track of the rhythm method.

[ProjectXero Posted Apr 14th 2010 12:49AM]

@Apple Fan Nice troll'n ;)

[kylemullaney Posted Apr 14th 2010 1:03AM]

@ddicted SO your daughter would not ever want to make a note about when she is going the movies with friends or make make a date when there is a dance or other date specific event? Seriously! She may not notice it is missing it may not be a reason to not buy they phone but there are cases when she would use it. It is a basic feature on most dumb phones!
I get it there is a market that can not afford data plans and may not want apps and a robust OS like Android, iPhone, or Phone 7 but these just seem a little too slim with no option for an IM client, do they have a wifi receiver? If they do and they had a universal IM client I could see it then. It would much easier to sit on the couch or lay in bed and IM via the phone than a computer. I think they missed a critical piece of the social puzzle for teens, then again I live in a place where you cannot get an unlimited texting plan for any price no matter how high, so maybe an IM client is not so important but it is easier than text messages! I think it is a feature this supposed market will not think to ask about and regret not having.

[JayTBennett Posted Apr 14th 2010 5:35AM]

@Veon Interesting analysis of the two strategies (+1), from my perspective, as a Nokia user, when a company tries to smarten up "dumbphones", they often end up making things run slow and buggy, which will in turn lead to people throwing their purchase away in frustration.

The concept of dumbing down Smartphones is quite a good idea provided that it means the OS and experience is fluid and reliable. The people microsoft are pitching the Kin at will not want to be wrestling endlessly with problems, so provided the OS matches the demographic MS might well be on to a winner here...

[stoney1973 Posted Apr 14th 2010 6:26AM]

@TheRogueFFAngel


yes, the shitty android phones that have standard features that Mr Jobs hasnt had time to erm, make perfect yet?

go hide behind your imac, whilst the desire owners laugh at you!!!!!

[HoldenMccrotch Posted Apr 14th 2010 8:54AM]

@TheRogueFFAngel
maybe because people dont want to spend like $400 on a piece of crap iphone?
these should be cheap compared to that, and are exactly what a teenager wants

[VinceInSeattle Posted Apr 14th 2010 9:34AM]

@scottkrk Exactly, the question isn't so much "Why Kin?" but "Why Microsoft?" They could sell a million of the damn things and still not make any money after Verizon and Sharp get paid and MS subtracts the development and marketing costs. Meanwhile WP7 is far in the future while the venerable Pocket PC/Windows Mobile franchise was allowed to die. What a failure WinMo 6.5 has been.

[DocWllk Posted Apr 14th 2010 9:49AM]

@scottkrk. I think it is late but not too late. The problem is the carrier. Releasing these phones a couple years ago on a low cost, no contract carrier like Cricket or Boost mobile or even Sprint with their cheap data plans would have made more sense.

[roflcopter Posted Apr 14th 2010 10:01AM]

@Cy Starkman

you had to "relearn everything" for windows 7? Do you have some kind of mental disability?

[sys3175 Posted Apr 14th 2010 10:41AM]

@ddicted When I was in high school, cellphones were about 5lbs, had a 20min talk time and you were lucky if they made a phone call.. I also think most of them didn't even have a phone list in them, you had to carry this little book you wrote numbers down in :). I think this will appeal to parents of kids in high school... it is a way of keeping track of them without it appearing as such :) And most parents look at all the iphone or the likes can do and say "I don't want my kid doing that"

[FrancisL4D Posted Apr 14th 2010 1:04PM]

@Apple Fan: You're an idiot. :)

But seriously, out of all the editor POVs in this article, Joanna's hits the nail on the head. The rest were too focused on the iPhone, which Kin isn't about at all. My nieces and nephews (15-20yr old) ALL have Blackberrys. Only one nephew has a passing interest in the iPhone (but he prefers his BB and DSi). It's all about the keyboard and BBM.

RIM's market share has been growing while iPhone's has stagnated, probably in large part due to the number of teen-early 20's people who want precisely these types of features, especially if the camera/video and cloud storage features work as advertised.

If MS markets this right, it's going to be a hit with that crowd.

[kadajawi Posted Apr 15th 2010 9:38AM]

@ddicted To be honest when I was in school I used a Psion Series 5, and I used it's calendar for the timetable. Couldn't be bothered to use a paper timetable or even remember when I'm supposed to be in what class. It's also useful if you do a lot of things with friends and want to remember when to meet up. I really don't see why MS would leave of this feature... those who do not want to use it don't have to, but I'm sure there are teens who want to.

Furthermore, at least in Germany kids load up their dumbphones with ringtones, stupid Java games/apps etc. Not having apps at all...

(And my "unlimited" data plan is 8,50 € a month, including VoIP.)

[Widgetech Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:09PM]

Consolidate your social networks? In addition to BLUR, wasn't that Palm's Synergy thing?

[emopoops Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:16PM]

@Widgetech no.

[CRA1G Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:28PM]

@Widgetech Synergy is a consolidator of social media PIM (personal information management), not of social media content (messages, etc.). If you've never used it, it may be a hard concept to grasp, but it's genius.

[weg Posted Apr 13th 2010 7:49PM]

@Widgetech I think the INQ1 started it..

[alexlipford Posted Apr 13th 2010 8:04PM]

@Widgetech Um you idiot! How many times am I going to have to see people comparing these phones to SMARTphones??? The whole idea behind this platform is to create multimedia phones that ARE NOT SMARTPHONES! If you look at Verizon's multimedia phone lineup, which you probably have no idea about b/c you're too caught up with the smartphones, you will notice that the best selling phones are the enV3, enV Touch, Rouge, and maybe the Chocolate Touch. These phone are messaging centered and are cheap. That is the idea behind the Kin....messaging/multimedia centered...but still cheap! Verizon's multimedia phones only require a $10/month data plan....a savings of $480 over the duration of the phone's contract when compared to the $30/month charge for smartphones, which these would have fallen into had apps and ,useless for non-smartphone owners, calendars. Take a little time and look at the sales numbers for those multimedia phones and you'll see what Microsoft can expect with the Kin.....hint much more than if these were smartphones!

[John D Posted Apr 14th 2010 11:08AM]

@weg This is exactly what's happening - the evolution of the dumbphone. Sure, no email or calendar, but who cares? Kids don't communicate through email, they do it through texting, IM & Facebook - they sure as hell don't call anymore either. It sounds like Microsoft has done their research - this will be the kind of thing, if priced right, that kids will love. Their older siblings and parents won't understand, and eventually, they'll grow out of it - but there's something refreshing about the simplicity.

[Widgetech Posted Apr 17th 2010 11:39AM]

@alexlipford

Okay, so basically the Kin is a POS that I don't want. Got it.