Sony to release 'affordable' 35mm digital cinema camera to fend off RED and Panasonic
By Paul Miller 
posted April 13th 2010 8:05PM
posted April 13th 2010 8:05PM
posted April 13th 2010 8:05PM
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Too bad dynamic range stinks on what we've seen so far.
@JS
Why would I pay so much money for a one or two stop improvement over what I can get for $800? I would definitely front $15K if these things actually have 16 to 20 bits of dynamic range.
I'd take a resolution hit for a three stop dynamic range improvement over what we currently get on these "high end" pro cameras.
@JS I can't really see what you would need more than 12 bits of color depth considering these cameras are probably aimed at broadcast. Quite a lot of headroom for manipulation of color balance etc.
@JS btw three stops equals three bits.
@JS Because for $800 you get a camera that you have to fight against to get something shot properly. The last thing you need on set is having to change the window blinds because the aliasing/line skipping is killing you (been there), the codec falling apart in grading (been there), the camera shutting off due to overheating (been there), not being able to move the camera fast enough because of the skew (been there) etc...
I'm pretty sure that camera will probably be in the $6000-$8000 range, will record to some compressed codec and won't compete with Sony's own $100K+ F35 and F23 cameras. BTW, the lens on that photo is a $20K lens and great cine glass will always be expensive.
RED's Scarlet line still has the greatest specs with 13.5 stops of DR, a great RAW codec, Choice of sensor sizes from 2/3" to Full frame 35mm and sub $10K pricing it does compete directly with Sony's $100K+ offerings.
@JS
Huh?!
They have shown NO FOOTAGE from this camera. They don't even have a name, much less any information to judge dynamic-range. Where are you pulling this crap out of?
Also, are we really debating the difference between a real camera with the proper codecs and output versus a video from a $800 dSLR?
Sony has already announced they are putting the $150-250k F35/Genesis sensor into their SRW-line. And the F35 is a sensor with a global-shutter (zero-skew).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_%28camera%29
The fact that this is a PL-mount, which judging by the video seem to have an ARRI lens, means that this has a super-35mm sensor. Looks to be a real competitor to the Red One, if they could get the pricing right (below $20k) with a global-shutter this could be killer.
@Temple RED & F35 are in direct competition. If this camera has anything less than 4:4:4 signal and a 100 Mbps+ codec (forget about it) it's not competing in the same league. The S35mm RED Scarlet is level with the RED one from an imaging standpoint so this camera would not even be in the same league unless it had specs that made it compete agains Sony's own high end cinema style cameras.
@JS way better than spending $10 to 20K on a Lieca which doesn't even do film.
@mosley
The new SRW with the F35 sensor adds 4:4:4 color-space via module. Granted its much more expensive, but not as much as it used to be. But its a global shutter, and uses the same F35 sensor that's been proven in the Panovision Genesis.
As it stands, the Panasonic AF100 is a mere $6,000, and that's close to a S35 sensor in terms of size. The Scarlet as it stands will cost well over $10k+ for a S35 version, and the comparably price Scarlet will be a 2/3" sensor which is comparatively puny.
Moreover, Scarlet is just vaporware at this point. Its been over two-years already since it was announced, maybe Bush-era a 2/3" sensor was considered big for video, but it isn't now.
Also, who the hell knows when the S35 Scarlet is going to be released (obviously after the 2/3" scarlet which we don't even know the release date on). Much less all those other, silly fantasy modules like the "617" brain...
@JS "to fend off RED and Panasonic" If it fends off RED, then surely it will fend off Panasonic.
@Temple I was stating that this newly announced camera does not compete in the same level as the RED, the SRW-9000 (? I think that's the model number) does compete on the same level but is $100K
The S35mm Scarlet will be $10K indeed but in terms of imaging characteristics it'll be more in line with The F35 since it will capture 13.5 stops (as the current Mysterium-X in my RED one does) 5K RAW data with a great compression scheme. The Sony camera just announced is 1) not RAW. 2)Will have to record at 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 if they get dare. 3)Have to highly compress the data. 4) will probably output 1080P. So no, not direct competition to the Scarlet or RED one.
In regards to an entry level Scarlet... Compared to 35mm yes, a 2/3" sensor puny but still very capable, let's not forget that the past 2 Academy Awards handed out for cinematography were for material shot on 2/3" chips.
Scarlet Vaporware? Not only did they say they were going to wait till the economy improved to push it but that's what people said years ago when I put a deposit down for a RED one. A couple of years later they had to wait a year in line to get one while renting it from me for what I admit was a ridiculously high rate. RED leads a relatively open development, different from other companies, announcing products and refining them pretty much in public. Development cycles for Sony or Panasonic are just as long but they don't tell you what they are going to release until they're ready to start mass production.
BTW, Epic, Scarlet's bigger brother is already in the hands of a few people for the testing phase. It will be out in a few months and Scarlet shortly after that. But you're probably right about the 617... I wouldn't expect to see it for a couple of years.
@JS
Sony is playing catchup with RED here and their not quite there yet.
@mosley Red has so far only produced one product since its inception, the Red One. And when they first released it, it was in pre-alpha stage.
The Scarlet was announced when Bush was president, and nobody ever heard of video of dSLRs. 2/3" sensors were considered massive. In what world is 3 years product launch not considered vaporware?
Epic too has been shown for over a year, and knowing Red, when its released it'll be full of bugs and in beta stage of development. How many years did it take for the Red One to be acceptable?
Also, the RedOne is no way comparable to the SRW-6000PL. First, and foremost, the SRW has a global-shutter and the F35 sensor, which means no rolling-shutter.
Even the $6k, Panasonic AF100 has uncompressed HD-SDI output, which means that you can capture is 260Mbs on nanoflash.
The S35 Scarlet is only joke, we've seen only pre-renderings of it, they have to get the 2/3rds Scarlet out first before, and how many years do we have to wait for the S35 Scarlet which will likely cost well over $10,000+?
The 2/3" Scarlet is already outdated before its been released.
@Saad the other one I want to see you do street life photography (without people noticing) with this Sony.
Different needs, different tools.
@kadajawi
I wouldn't buy either. But I would rather be the guy shelping this thing down the street (which is at least priced fairly) than you who spent the same amount on your Leica.
lens is not included.
I'll take 5!
Sony ≠ Affordable
Luke ≠ Jedi
Vader ≠ Father
@Jedi Luke Skywalker +1 lol
You guys are dorks but I totally LOL'd. :-D
is it every manufacturer's intention to make a war about everything these days? i miss the good old days when wars were few and far between, and the odd "vhs vs betamax" would be over in a few months. but not these days... in my days... *rant rant rant*
@Wiggy Fuzz
?
You don't realize what a war in electronics is do you? It's called competition and it's what makes capitalism work.
@FNG
it's not what makes capitalism works, it's what capitalism creates.
@Wiggy Fuzz
+1
@Wiggy Fuzz
It is competition that brings benefits to customers. If you do not like the war (and it makes you stressed), just do not follow the news.
However do a very good research when you want to buy something and select the best option.
I hate to say it, but this is a little late to the game, seeing what RED has with the Epic.
@tayklor
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Red will be working on the next generation past epic by the time Sony's camera comes out, and you know Sony's will be even more expensive and probably not as compatible with accessories.
@tayklor RED has an announcement and that is all (Dec. 2008). In no way do I want to discredit RED but unless RED (any Sony etc.) actually have shipping products all this "RED owns teh industry with EPIC/Scarlet"-talk seems beyond silly.
PS yes I know RED is shipping the RED ONE but I'm refering to EPIC/Scarlet etc.
Errr.. Sony and Affordable don't exactly go together.
"This just in, Sony's 'affordable' 35mm digital cinema camera has started losing features via forced updates."
It's only a matter of time.
@Niazac
Hah, you had to say it...
these are good times
That guy needs to curb his enthusiasm. Post haste.
So this camera is trying to fill the apparent gap of filmmakers who think the RED is too expensive and the video DSLRs aren't good enough... isn't that a very niche market?
Where is nikon?!
Nikon?
They kinda fell away after their first attempt at making a DSLR with video and it would cook the camera.
Nikon doesn't really have a history of making video or film cameras.
Whereas Sony and Canon do. The rest of the names obviously do
@goff
Nikon uses Sony sensors, they are planning to update their alpha700 line with a focus on HD video, so expect a Nikon D400 with vastly superior video capabilities.
As far as Nikon making a video camera, don't count on it any time soon.
@Temple
Yeah i guess you are right about their past. Nikon's glass in my opinion is the best in the world. I would love to pair it with their own video camera. You could call me a nikon fan boy. Even just doing video as well as canon DSLR's would be okay with me. Manual control of ISO and shutter speed would be great. Maybe throw in some 1080p. and auto focus. possibly an easier way to zoom. longer recording times. Damn i guess there is a lot wrong with them. Ill just stick to still life.
>>Sony showing off at NAB today one of its upcoming 35mm (full frame) digital cinema cameras after ARRI hogged the spotlight last week.
The ARRI Alexa, and this camera, are not full-frame 35mm. They are super-35mm. Huge difference.
Super-35mm is closer to APS-C in terms of size, full-frame 35mm for cameras (FF35) is significantly larger any neither this Sony, RED, nor ARRI currently use an FF35 sensor. Its also a 3:2 sensor. The 5D MarkII and Nikon D3s is the only camera right now that does FF35 video (the D3s only does 720p)
Will Sony be offering an alternate OS such as Yellow Dog Linux?
Maybe some USB ports?
I imagine the film in regular cinema cameras can cost about $10K for a full length movie.
Of course I don't know that much about movies.
Hey Engadget, fix your DVinfo link as it keeps coming back to the Engadget front page.
pfff... still a whole year off, that means it will have to have some real good extra functions compared to the current RED's or any other..
What I still miss about a lot of the 'cheaper' camera's (and propably on this one), is complete variable framerate, so you can undercrank/overcrank it and do good slowmotions or speedups (yeah speedups are quite easily done in post, but slowmotions aren't).
Now, where are the 70mm versions ;)
It's about the skill of the operator not the equipment. I've seen plenty of talented filmmakers using DVX-100s produce work that rivals big budget studio's rubbish. The other thing people forget when talking about price is how empowering a second camera is during a production. You can get 3 5D mkII rigs for one RED. Also, for HD broadcast work, I've seen several projects shot on RED with a 5D as a second.
The internet surely makes RED seem much bigger in the movie industry than they really are that's for sure. Talking like these guys have major market share, get real, digital cinematography dominance is still up for grabs.