Microsoft weighs in: 'the future of the web is HTML5'
By Vlad Savov 
posted April 30th 2010 4:05AM
posted April 30th 2010 4:05AM
This is where it gets good, because he literally repeats one of Jobs' six pillars of Flash hate: "reliability, security, and performance" are not as good as Microsoft would like them. Where Hachamovitch diverges from Apple's messiah, however, is in describing Flash as an important part of "a good consumer experience on today's web," primarily because it's difficult for the typical consumer to access Flash-free content. Still, it's got to be depressing for Adobe's crew when the best thing either of the two biggest players in tech has to say about your wares is that they're ubiquitous. Wonder how Shantanu Narayen is gonna try and spin this one.
P.S. : it's notable that in multiple paragraphs of discussing "the future," Microsoft's IE general fails to once mention the fabled Silverlight, itself a rich media browser plug-in. Given Silverlight's featured role in the Windows Phone 7 infrastructure and other things like Netflix, we doubt it's on the outs, but there are sure to be some sour faces greeting Hachamovitch this morning.
[Thanks, KnifeX4]
@wraith404 Sure, choice is good, but that's not what I was talking about. Also the communism bit is taking it a bit too far, don't you think? Fortunately, you have the choice to buy into another, more open platform.
@rik66 I know it's a Utopian dream, but that's they way I'd like to see it work. Of course, we live in this world, and as such, things rarely happen as they should. It's hard to not be cynical when only 2 or 3 big corporations have any say in which direction the web moves.
I really don't see how Flash technology is even defensible at this point.
This whole debate exists entirely because Adobe has no viable Flash solution for any mobile device at present, and Mobile devices make up a massive share of web browsers. So.. as goes mobile, so goes the rest of the web.
Basically, Adobe screwed the pooch and the market moved on.
It would be interesting to see if this can be corrected by Adobe actually releasing a Flash player for a mobile device. Flash for some Android devices is supposed arrive in June.. but will it be too little too late? I'm guessing yes.
@nothingreal I'm guessing you don't have a clue and feed from the Jobso rss feed of fail.
Sooo according to you haters Adobe should remove Photoshop etc from Mac and Windows too? Hahaha where will they go now I wonder.
I am very suprised nobody called for Adobe to remove all Adobe products from Windows....
Keep using Linux haters....
Flash, Silverlight, HTML5... whatnot....
I can't stop reading this MS guy's name as Dean Whatchamacalllit.
...and now I'm hungry too.
99% of the people that I see comment on HTML 5 and it's future as the replacement of Flash have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. To start with the very basics, HTML stands for Hyper-text markup language. Again, it is a MARKUP LANGUAGE. That means that it is simply a set of tags that are used to describe HOW A PAGE IS LAID OUT. A markup language is completely different from a programming language. The difference is that a programming language can contain functions and logic. To simplify, a markup language can't do anything on it's own. A programming language can. In order to make HTML 5 dynamic on the client side, you have to use something to modify the DOM...enter javascript. What is HTML 5 without JS? Static pages, that's what.
So the fantasy that HTML 5 is going to replace Flash on it's own is one based in pure ignorance. It's literally impossible. Adding Javascript to the mix, HTML 5 + JS will be able to do some of the things that Flash can, but not even CLOSE to all of what Flash can do. If you think otherwise, you should educate yourself on the topic you're attempting to spout off about.
@OverDriven
True but JS performance is much better than flash. So HTML5+JS beats flash
@OverDriven
I agree. HTML5 Flash
As one who has developed interactive Flash applications for web sites, the ability to program is a must. People think Flash is just for video deliver and banner ads. Visit any of the major automobile manufactures sites and look at the interactive pages for selecting colors, options, etc. HTML5 alone ain't gonna do that.
@OverDriven
Yes, the basic facts are true as far as that goes, but it still doesn't mean HTML5 can't replace flash. It can. You have to be a little more open minded. Just because HTML5 isn't a programming language doesn't mean it's not capable of creating an environment in which you could play simple games, like you do in flash:
http://www.kesiev.com/akihabara/
See what I mean? HTML5 doesn't NEED to be exactly like flash to replace it. And in fact it's a good thing that it isn't. Thinking that HTML5 can't replace flash just because it's not a programming language is myopic and short sighted.
@OverDriven
So true.
People are getting confused because all they care about are youtube and hulu...and jump straight to HTML5 can run video without a plugin.
Silverlight is a GUI people....you write code on the backend that tells the GUI controls what to do when users interact with them (ie. web app). Adobe's competing product is actually FLEX! These are used for RIAs... rich internet applications.
Flash is nothing more than an outdated answer to make the web more interactive.
RIAs (rich internet applications) are the future of the web; so we're really talking GUI based web apps....like Hulu Desktop app, etc. Google, Microsoft, and Apple are all pushing towards web apps to control the web. Google wants to use open standard for RIA, Microsoft and Apple use closed standards, in order to keep their OS' relevant.
As far as web design is concerned sure HTML5. There will always be a need for both. But please don't get the two confused.
@OverDriven You are missing a) JavaScript, b) AJAX, c) HTML DOM, d) CSS Animations / Transitions, e) Audio/Video Tags, f) things to come. That's what "HTML5" stands for.
Samples:
http://www.chromeexperiments.com/
http://webkit.org/blog-files/3d-transforms/morphing-cubes.html
http://web.me.com/pzich/3DImageFly/
just google css3 samples / html5 samples
@off2bali2
Strange, we are working with the Google Web Toolkit. Compiles Java Code into HTML/JavaScript and runs on every browser. All using really open web standards.
I think people misused browsers as a platform for applications that should have been written as native application. Write once, run everywhere: Write an web app. Want something cool: Write it for .Net, Cocoa or whatever the platform is.
Hard time for Designers that though by using flash they are real programmers.
Another problem is very apparent now ,the W3C consists of member-organisations and all normally adher to the unwritten "golden rule " of that body: keep discussions inside the WC3. Apple - and now Microsoft as well- have blatantly disregarded that rule . In order to fully grasp what this means one needs only to take a look at the membership list :
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
The group for HTML 5 approval has Adobe,Apple and Microsoft-amongst countless others- as members and these folks will eventually have to agree on a standard . By attacking Adobe - in the open- like this we can pretty much assume Adobe will now be less inclined to agree with any proposal made by either Apple or Microsoft in the short term making the approval of a standard far less likely .
The very thing Apple and MS are saying they want is now further away than before Job's press release.
Where Steve Jobs leads, Microsoft follows....sooo true!!!!
@ddddd
What a deluded soul. Apple could buy Adobe in a snap and shut them down.
@ddddd
What exactly is Apple afraid of? Making even more money? Have you looked at their quarterly reports for the last couple of years? Don't be stupid.
@ddddd
Since you never provide any context for whatever the hell you're talking about, nobody ever knows what the hell you're talking about.
What is an iPhone 4G? Has Apple announced an iPhone 4G? Has anybody, ever, at any point, said that there will be an "iPhone 4G" in an official statement?
Don't be stupid.
Ouch. Darwinism. I like Adobe's art software, but their arguments against Apple on Flash haven't made much sense to me. Still a fan of many of their products though.
I believe they are tentpoles of flash hate.
The only time my Chrome crashes is when the Flash plugin dies.
In the long term, I think silverlight will become some sort of Microsoft's Java applet. They will put the run time on other platforms, but probably not as a browser plug-in.
Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but HTML5 is YEARS away from even competing with Flash on the internet, and when it does get to the point where it's noticeable on the web it still won't actually replace Flash because their are many things HTML5 simply cannot do. Ever since the launch of the Flash-less iPad, Steve jobs trying to make it seem as if HTML5 is here already and that's simply not the case.
Couple of points:
1. Apple and Microsoft both hate Flash for one reason only - it has more penetration on the web than anything either of them have developed. Any product that is as ubiquitous as Flash (98% install rate) is going to become the target of other companies who want in on that action.
2. Apple and Microsoft talking about Flash security is a JOKE. If you go read the Symantec Security Report Steve Jobs cited in his "open letter," you will see that it clearly shows:
- IE and Safari have the most security holes/exploits of all browsers
- Safari has the slowest respond time in getting patches out to customers (slower by a factor of 2) when exploits are discovered
- Quicktime has 46% more security holes than Flash
- Internet Explorer accounts for 40% or more of all security threats online, whereas Flash accounts for a measly 3%
- That 3% number that Flash gets above is actually quite impressive when you consider it has 2X the number of installs as IE and probably 100X the number of installs as Safari. It is by far the most ubiquitous platform on the internet, which makes it the most obvious, likely and frequently targeted exploit by hackers. That it accounts for such a small number of exploits is something Adobe should be PROUD of. Apple and MS are relying on the fact that people will simply nod in agreement when they LIE on stage.
Go read the F'in report yourself if you don't believe my numbers above.
@beenyweenies
Actually it's because flash is completely proprietary and is dependent on the user installing it.
HTML5 doesn't need anything additional to be installed. And when you say "flash has more penetration" what are you comparing it to? HTML? I'd say HTML has more penetration on the web than flash does, but that's just me.
And I'd certainly hope that HTML5 becomes the target of people who want in on that action. The more people using it, the better.
@beenyweenies
Finally someone makes a decent and CORRECT argument.. this is about money, nothing else. Flash is a threat to apple's app and content pipeline on mobile devices, and it's a threat to increased Silverlight adoption.
@Jack I feel like I'm going to regret this, knowing that you tend to read whatever you want into posts, while ignoring any form of respect you may have been taught as a child (or maybe you are a child?), but here goes:
Flash Player and the Flash development environment are proprietary. The SWF file format specification, on the other hand, is completely open source. This means that anyone can write their own SWF player/interpreter and write some ActionScript on his or her favorite text editor and make awesome stuff. It's true that nobody does this, mainly because there's already an SWF player with a 98% adoption rate. You might have heard of it.
Secondly, while the FlexBuilder development environment is proprietary, the Flex SDK is also completely open source and you can use it to create rich internet applications in your text editor of choice without paying a cent for ANY Adobe product.
Thirdly, @beenyweenies made absolutely no argument against HTML5, yet you're still ready to fire that gun. His point was about Steve Job's and now Microsoft's argument for security. The numbers don't lie, and it's clear that these security holes are mere disinformation spread throughout the Internet to defame the technology.
I have nothing against HTML5. It may indeed be the savior of all things web-related. However, that's not happening any time soon. The standard won't be finalized until 2016. It's clear that many aspects of HTML5 are available right now, but what's available of it right now doesn't even come close to the things external APIs can do (with much less effort). Not by a ridiculous longshot.
I'm not a Flash or Flex developer, but I know these things because I actually have a degree in Computer Science and make a living writing code (Java, Obj-C, C#, Ruby, HTML, JS and XML in case you're curious).
I'm excited to see how you spin all I said into your own point of view while making all kinds of assumptions of what I know and don't know, and throwing a few "your an idiot harrr harr" comments on the way.
@saposmak
I could not have said it better myself. Awesome job!
@saposmak
Comment of the Year. +1 to you sir.
I'll keep my comments on journalistic quality to myself...this is a tech blog after all.
But he merely stated the obvious. It isn't that he is following Jobs.
Obviously the future of the web is HTML5...there isn't even really a choice in the matter, as that is the next iteration of the underlying framework that makes all this work. And yes, it has some great advancements in the way content can be presented. It has the potential to be faster, safer, and simpler than Flash.
People have been saying this and singing HTML5's praises well before Stevie-poo weighed in.
On that point, sure HTML5 is the future but it's a blatantly obvious fact that Flash is important NOW. Not supporting it cuts your users off from a significant portion of the web experience they've come to know and love/hate. Nobody wins with Apple's little beef with Adobe...the end result is a bunch of Apple users once again sitting around waiting for features that everyone else has considered standard for a while.
@Robo Agreed that HTML5 is the future of the web. But I think if you look at Apple's track record for leading technological change you'll see that when they say something's dead, it's usually true. Just look at floppy drives for example. Many people thought they were nuts for selling a computer without one when the iMac came out. Now floppy drives are history. Now Apple is telling the world it's time to move on. 90% of the flash content that on the web is video, and most of that is on youtube which is already available to users in non-flash form. Other than video, you have a lot of websites built in flash that would be better served being rebuilt as html. Most flash sites I've come across (and I've built many flash sites myself) include a lot of animated nonsense that adds nothing if value. Other sites are even worse, they seems as if they were built in flash because the designer didn't know another way to do it. As for gamers… I think any real gamers are going to buy and download native apps from the app store and be fine with it.
@snebold Gee golly gosh, if Apple tells me I need to move on, I'll get right on that train.
Google needs Flash for feeding Ads
Microsoft can hardly discredit flash and tout silverlight in the same sentence since any critic against flash is equally true of silverlight with the exception of silverlight being even less mature, less stable, and not even having the pretense of cross-platform support.
Strategy is to discredit flash in the open, while continue pushing silverlight to clueless content providers in silence.
You have to get rid of IE6 first you dumb ass MS fools.
"reliability, security, and performance"
And what exactly would Microsoft know about these things hmm?
So uh, how many other people here thought the picture was actually an embedded video and tried to click the play button?
YAY! Mr. Narayen: Thank you - come again.
Flash must die.
Followers follow the leader. Apple leads, Microsoft follows. This is good because IE is known for proprietary stuff, not open standard. Back in the day, web pages had to be coded for open standard browsers like Firefox, etc. and IE. It's good to see that Microsoft is changing IE to be more web standard compliant ala Acid3.
http://www.w3schools.com/html5/tag_embed.asp
HTML5 definition for the embed tag
"The embed tag defines embedded content, such as a plug-in."
So all this talk about plug-in=bad and html5=good kind of feel moronic when you understand what a mark up language is and what actionscript flash and javascript are. But please continue the pointless discussion. In case someone wants a lesson in true open systems, browse with the new flash embeded chrome browser and pay no attention to the turtle necked one and this mouth piece from MS. Because you know, safari doesn't even support html5 properly on a pc and the MS browser is just a POS. Nice to see how Flash reunited apple and ms in a circle jerk of iAds and Silverlight fail. Got to love this crowd.
@fast
Yeh don't you get it... billion dollar companies like Microsoft want to keep making money. Who cares if you want open standards; Apple has already proven that closing standards can not only make them money but improve the user's experience.
As for MS IE... IE9 has HTML5 and will be the most standards compatible IE released by far. The reason is that Microsoft's direction to control the web is no longer through the browser its through the content (ie. RIA framework... .NET Silverlight); which is just taking a page out of Apple's book.
You can complain about it, but the end-user will actually love the end result. But go ahead and continue to hate just for the sake of hating.
@off2bali2 Your obviously just a force fed consumer, so the statement that "Apple has already proven that closing standards can not only make them money but improve the user's experience." just sets this force fed line of reasoning where there is no need for competition when the product is already so good, through propaganda and killing options. We all know what company monopolies did to contemporary society, turned it perfect...oh wait...no they didn't.
Still you should at least know that consumer perceived quality and quality are not the same sort of indexes, to not want to raise the bar and go along with the bandwagon on proprietary material is just a way to let something degrade fast. That's a really desperate try at self validation and never works, you just end having companies abusing comsumers.
Thanks to Jobs the embed tag that allows Flash to persist through the years is in HTML5, he wanted it inserted so that his great proprietary Quicktime plug-in had a chance...it was a flop and now he just wants to squash competition. FLV won the ad space on the web so he can't stand Adobe. Thanks to Adobe and Google, he can't do nothing about it. But enjoy your iAds that will be made through the tools provided by Adobes Suite, in HTML5. You will not be able to turn those off. That's the problem of having the canvas element in the mark up language, again your force fed. Hey but you like it like that.
MS IE is a poor excuse of a browser, MS doesn't have enough penetration with the RIA they developed. Developers just don't want to use the dev tools they have for the web. They are cumborsome and the only way they have to try and kill competition is to gang up. Failing to the finish line as always they will have silverlight on the WPS7 and call it a win ... and that's it. Until they kill it themselves on the desktop after some years of zombie existence.
I am debating and informing, not complaining about it, just consider that the end user doesn't decide a thing about standarts (like you state) if they can't choose and your generic projections are just that. Mute wishful thinking to conjure a group that supports your position, but that is way see through. Only a small part of users really give 2 cents over what Jobs wants and he is simply applying pressure outside the W3C because he can't win inside, Google and Adobe won't let him. Some browser developers won't pay the H264 price. If he pushes even more he will make them brake away and he can't have google on his ass, he really has been playing the little coward with them through sideways dealing. That's the type you follow, someone that aim's at the lowest common denominator and pushes phones to people without a sence of kitsch. Tragic but very funny.
Your last line is really a poor ad hominem attempt: "But go ahead and continue to hate just for the sake of hating." You obviously have nothing other then your own emotions to add to the subject and I don't really talk about technology on the level of 14 year old with a passion for rap and little knowledge of music. "Stop hatin Bro!" Priceless.
like apple like microsoft
@ddddd It's not the question about what is better. It's a question about standards. Every native application even some pseudo native ones written in Java or Flash offer more flexibility than HTML5 and JavaScript. It's about to bring back the internet / the browsers back where they should have stayed: using public standards. In former times, every computer had it own character set encoding. Every Windows code pages, MacRoman, etc. so you couldn't even exchange plain text without a converter. Something as important as the internet cannot be dependent on a single Company (Adobe).
Strange: You go for Android voting for open standards and still vote for flash!?
Internet should be based on open standards that are not guarded by a single company. It's just too important in our live. Would be like producing newspapers, radio and TV content is only possible by tools, technology and blessing by a single company.
May be a step back since HTML5 (and it's accompanying technologies like JavaScript, CSS, AJAX, SVG, etc.) and the available tools are not mature yet, people lack the experience and as always some people are against change. And maybe some things that could be done with flash are now longer possible.
Adobe was dominating the print world with Postscript (after Apple put it in the first laser printer), charged ridicules amount of money for fonts for it until Microsoft and Apple stemmed it. Then came PDF. Then Adobe bought Flash. Adobe wants to make money by dominating the content production and delivery.
There are plenty of things I don't like about Microsoft and Apple. But this time their battle - well decision (battle is over with their decision) - is good for us.
HTML5 should mean a much more apples-to-apples comparison for Curl (the web content language from MIT, not cURL from haxx.se)
Curl has had many of the HTML5 features for years.
The Curl runtime tends to be used only by large corporations such a clients of Reuters' Paisley division and Japanese clients of Sumisho.
There are some examples at developers.curl.com and some linked to my eclectic-pencil or to aule-browser
Paul Rubins describes exactly what he was doing the night he was arrested in an adult movie theater.