Engadget Podcast 195 - 05.07.2010
By Trent Wolbe 
posted May 7th 2010 3:22PM
posted May 7th 2010 3:22PM
NOTE: We had a few recording issues, please bear with us. They won't kill you. But if they do, don't say we didn't warn you.
Hosts: Joshua Topolsky, Nilay Patel
Special guest: Michael Gartenberg
Producer: Trent Wolbe
Music: Rock And Roll All Night
Hear the podcast
00:01:30 - Microsoft Kin One and Two review
00:05:00 - Kin available online starting tomorrow, in Verizon stores on May 13
00:30:00 - Survey says: most teens don't have a data plan, almost all send texts
00:40:00 - Confirmed: BlackBerry two-way sync for Gmail is now live
00:48:05 - Intel's Atom Z6xx series isn't targeting Windows Phone 7, but 'full Windows experience' still an Atom priority
00:53:00 - Intel reaches for the 'smartphone zone' with Moorestown-based Atom Z6, comes up shorthanded
00:58:25 - Apple under preliminary antitrust investigation over iPhone, triggered by complaint from Adobe
01:15:40 - Engadget wins the People's Voice Webby in Consumer Electronics, and you can win a Droid Incredible!
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Twitter: @joshuatopolsky @futurepaul @reckless @engadget
Did I miss the Ustream? I looked for it from 5 to 7 and was little disappointed when it never surfaced.
The chat is one of the best parts of the live podcasts!
@ju12zo
They didn't stream it live this time.
@ju12zo
It wasn't live.
http://twitter.com/reckless/status/13508336543
Also this phone sucks, I might not be the average 17 year old but I rather stick with my iPhone and Nexus One than get a Kin.
I'm about to graduate from High school, and as the "tech guy" I have to agree with Michael. I would never consider a Kin for my personal use but here's the thing: kids are stupid. No one ever considers the monthly charges or the OS. High school kids shop for phones like clothes: they walk into the store and buy it. Very few people use their phones for twitter or face-book. As long as it has a QWERTY keyboard their set.
@tazdar Yes. Josh is just Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too jaded to ever review a lesser device. He even mentions being a complete taskmaster and perfectionist when it came to the design and layout placement of the engadget phone apps. One infinitesimal sliver of a color out of line and down comes the Topolsky WHIP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Devices like the kin have a chance precisely because people DON'T know there are better options for the same money. And that is especially true for the interface. Many kids come from basic phones, their comparison is not the building sized sampling of scores upon scores of different handsets and interfaces.
It does not have to be best in class, it simply needs to be better than something they had before, or, better than nothing (which all people start from at some early point).
This perspective is lost on Josh, he is too jaded to see this clearly. Now if the kin really is that terrible to use it may fall under the bus, but lets not mistake the bar of failure of one Taskmaster Topolsky for the typical kid who never had a phone before to begin with.
Nilay the EnV requires at least a $10 data plan for 25 MB. The unlimited plan is $30
@BearCobra yeah, i just totally repeated this. I should read more thoroughly. Listen to this person.
I really didn't agree with ANYTHING Michael said. I am glad Josh and Nilay called him on all of it. I feel like consumers aren't as dumb as Michael thinks, and will make reasonable value judgements.
Keep it up guys, I love these podcasts.
@python2121
I have been with my graduating class for the last 4 years, and they are dumb as Michael thinks.
@python2121 No they totally are "dumb". And I was one of them. About 2-3 years ago, I didn't know the difference between any of the phones and wanted to buy a Samsung Blackjack because it was only $50 and looked neat but I had no idea about the data plans. I also didn't know the difference smartphones and featurephones and didn't know what features the phone included. I was a total computer geek and knew those inside and out but had no idea about phones and I certainly wasn't "dumb". It wasn't even up until maybe 6 months ago that I started to follow phones more closely.
Now I do understand phones and I do want the higher end smartphones but it is a terrible assumption to make that everyone else knows what features are available on EVERY phone and actually care about and want all of these features.
@trong I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought everyone is an expert, just not dumb. For example, dumb customer sees an iPhone and it's smooth as butter and then a kin, extremely choppy scrolling. And the iPhone is cheaper. Even someone uninterested is going to choose the iPhone.
Well you can actually buy books on the Stanza App
gmail for symbian... has everything archiving, deleting, labling,., you guys are totally forgetting symbian. :P
Seems like Josh is confusing the smart phone market with the phone market. The phone market is absolutely mature even if the smart phone market is not.
The Kin, as a phone, may serve as the bridge for feature phone users into Windows Phone 7. It surely lies somewhere between feature phones and smart phones
Just a note about last week's episode:
Paul: Learn to buy things from the internet. You work for a. *Gadget. Website.* Come on man!
No offense, I found that to be a little ridiculous and feel it should be addressed. Josh, make him buy something online for god's sake.
Michael is 100% wrong, the kin is a junky little phone with no good features. Sorry Michael but your crazy if you offered a kid a iPhone or a kin NO kid would chose the kin, gotta call bs on ya.
your argument is Complexity? Kids would choose something that is easy to use and less complex? I know lots of children and NONE of them go for ease of use its all about cool stuff it can do.
@theinternetstom and there we have it. had to shut the podcast off, Michael's baseless arguments and echo filled Mic is just to annoying to listen to. Please, please don't have him back.
@theinternetstom while I didn't agree with a lot of the arguments from either side, I thought it was refreshing to see someone else on the podcast, with different opinions/ideas..
If you think about it, Josh/Nilay/Paul all (from the pictures i've seen here) use MacBooks, and while I've never encountered Flash on a MacBook (i've got a ThinkPad), apparently they all have encountered Flash problems on OS X. While it may be true that Flash is buggy on OS X, it's still just one side of the argument.. i've never had any (ANY) problems with Flash running on Vista and 7.
What I wanted to say with this is just that it's good to hear more opinions! Great podcast!!
@gargle
I feel the need to echo that I don't have problems running flash on Windows.
@gargle im all for different opinions but it sounded to me like he was shilling, Every point josh hit him with, the kin's price its features all he had to say was " ooh but my kids love it and he's a tech blogger" yea no thanks.
I run flash on windows and I too have NO problems with it at all. But I was not really commenting on flash, just the Kin conversation.
Aargh, please stop inviting Gartenberg to the podcasts. His voice is incredibly annoying and his silly anecdotal stories are even worse. You guys need Paul and the Ustream chat to help you get to the meat.
I am a iPhone user and will be for a while. Now that said I would not want my 11 year old son to have use of it for one main reason "Porn". On the Kin he will still be able to use his facebook without easy access to porn. I think that is a MAJOR selling point to parents.
@Baron Ren You really need to teach your kids better then.
That is a general comment about keeping kids away from porn. Not a specific detail. Pay attention
I would just like you to know, I am FOURTEEN and have a ZUNE HD. I wanted one, too. There is about three kids in my grade who willingly have a Zune HD. You would be surprised how people see a product that is actually good, and want it, regardless of brand. When I would show of Courier videos (sniff) people would think that it is amazing. It was. Also, I know people who don't like iPhones. So, your argument is invalid. People do not want iPhones and want Zunes. I also know people who want KINs. Crazy, but they do.
@HowardtheDuck
Now, would those parents (including yours) be willing to pay $30 extra on top of $20 for text and $40 for voice for a Kin?
@HowardtheDuck do they not sell iPod Touch and iPhones at your place?
@CTTHosting
Yeah, they actually would. But thinking about it now, the school I go to is in a unique position, gadget wise, being a private school that caters to upper class in L.A. A couple of the kids have parents who are in charge of product placement in T.V, so they know tech things because of their parents. And being in the class, most parents (mine included) would not mind paying the extra money for data plans. And almost every kid in my school has a smart phone.
@HowardtheDuck
That makes more sense, most parents wouldn't pay for it. I live in New York and almost everyone in my school has a BlackBerry or iPhone (with data)
I say this phone will not tend to to other regular teens across the country. (With this economy that is)
@HowardtheDuck
I also am a willing Zune owner (Zune 80, thinking of moving to the HD). I understand that I'm a minority, but I'd appreciate some recognition as a person, Gartenberg.
Great podcast.....Can't believe Michael called apple junkies HAHAHAHA
Engadget editors, please stop projecting your paradigm regarding gadgets upon everyone else. Watch some Big Bang Theory :) You live in a different world than most people.
I think Gartenberg's stance on the Kin phones felt a little forced. His points didn't seem the strongest.
@PaulSaade
I think michael is still on the Microsoft payroll...
From wikipedia
Gartenberg was hired by Microsoft from February to March 2007 with the job title "Enthusiast Evangelist" to publicize Windows Vista [4][5][6]. Gartenberg stated:
Why Microsoft? There’s a revolution going on. A battle for the hearts and minds of consumers in terms of their digital lives. I firmly believe that Microsoft is the only company that will enable the seamless transition for users to move in and out of the different aspects of their lives. In short, no one else comes close to presenting a complete, unified and integrated view of the digital home of the 21st century.[4]
More recently, in Oct 2007, regarding a potential Microsoft Windows competitor, Linux, he wrote:
Linux Still Doesn't Make it On Desktop. ... For now and the foreseeable future, it's going to remain a Microsoft world. Linux still isn't the answer.[7]
Gartenberg repeated the claim in an opinion piece published in March 2010[8], wherein he denied that use of a free operating system significantly reduces cost of computer ownership. In July 2009, Google announced the development of an operating system for netbooks, Chrome OS, due for release in late 2010. Gartenberg opined:
Chrome OS is not a threat to Windows ... By creating of lot of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt this morning... they hope to take the attention and luster off of [Microsoft] Windows 7[9] ... history doesn't run in favour of Chrome OS's principles[10]
@busdriver71 This explains a lot. I actually HOPE he's on the take for Microsoft because if he was serious, he's no tech analyst. (And I'm not preaching doom and gloom on these phones. I just think he had arguments that were so weak they forced me to stop the podcast and replay it again to make sure I heard him correctly.
Google filed patents related to gmail in 2005. I guess that's why no other thread and label email client.
Michael Gartenberg is so out of touch it's not funny. He's here projecting that these phones might do well on the strength of his kids spending a couple of days with the devices?!! (Kids who, might I add, probably get all sorts of gadgets dropped in their lap.) None of his arguments made ANY sense. He thinks the price is a *little* obstacle? Come on, man. I mean, I haven't held one of these things myself and I'm not here preaching doom and gloom on them. They may actually do well. But his reasons are ridiculous. Kids actually are more concerned about preventative data loss via the automated backup than they are gaming?? And does he really think that in a world of $99 iPhones and Blackberries with BBM that THIS phone is the likely successor to their Sidekick? I know Josh had to be kind to keep the relationship going, but if those weak arguments were coming out of anyone else's mouth, they'd be laughed off of their Skype connection. Next time get "the Seans" to come on. For awhile I felt a bit bad at all of the Gartenberg bashing I saw in the comments. Then I heard this episode and I see where folks are coming from.
Josh - take him up on that bet. Go with your gut. Pick a hard number (say, 100K phones sold by August 2010) and take some of his trust fund. Then YOU can be an investor in gdgt too.
Did he just say that the initial 2007 iPhone experience wasn't compelling because he couldn't use Exchange?? 10-to-1 that the phone he has ringing in the back is a POTS line. Out. of. touch.
I'm 17, and I guarantee at least half of the people at my school would go for the Kin, the same ones with the old feature phones and the things like the enV type phones and flip phones. I currently have a flip phone, but I hope to get an Incredible when I get my upgrade. About half the people with phones at my school have feature phones, the other half have Blackberries, iPhones, or Droids. Most would be perfectly happy with the Kin. I am seriously considering the Zune HD as my next media player, but I may not bother. I'm sure that I'm not really the type of person who the Kin is aimed at(I like tech news and am a lot nerdier than most of my peers), but I think a lot of teens are. Many of the people I go to school with can't figure out basic english(one student got a response from our english teacher to refrain from using the numeral 2 for every instance of the word to or too in his essays), and they primarily text people, not talking or using email, so this might be perfect for them.
Josh and Michael should have made a bet on how long it would take to sell 1 million Kins.
My prediction is they won't ever get to this number, and any Kin functionality worth keeping (such as studio) will be rolled into WP7 within 18 months.
All phones on Verizon have an unlimited data plan option of $29.99. Feature phones require a $9.99 25MB data plan now (its actually EVDO phones). But you can get a $29.99 unlimited plan on feature phones, actually its the only other option you have.
@godofcookery i went into a verizon store this week to help my mom upgrade her phone, she wants a dumbphone with a qwerty, they only had 2 choices and the manager told me, quite confidently, that by the end of the year, maybe even by fall they will only have 2 types of phones, dumbphones with ONLY alphanumeric keypads OR phones that ALL require $30 data plans, he was pretty specific that in the future anything with a qwerty will require data. again this is just a store manager, but it makes sense, it's a sneaky way to get everyone into a data plan.
Thanks for another great podcast.
On the comments on the iPad. While it does a lot that the iphone does, the iPad is sooooo much more than an iPhone. This IS the mobile device of the future. Reading on the iPad is a DREAM. Webpages are beautiful. Honestly, the display is nicer in some cases than my 17" laptop and 24" inch Desktop monitor. I'm no longer tethered to my PC. I'm FREE....
The iPad can go with me anywhere!
I'm pretty sure advanced gmail features aren't enabled in other devices is because of the way they are executed. They are part of googles own private web api's, and aren't just part of standard protocols that google allows everyone access too.
Apps can manipulate these features but they must do it by first requesting security tokens and cookies using WWW protocols, and RIM probably does that on the back end of their servers.
Palm Pre's lost Google Voice Apps once those security tokens were enabled in GV. Pre apps, which run in webkit actually can't store data like Web Tokens and Cookies!! Probably similar with the Iphone and the APIs available.
You guys are missing the key point to the AntiTrust issues at apple. If they block 3rd party tools from creating iphone apps, tools who's entire purpose and basis is to make an app once and then push in onto 90% of the smartphone market. If people cant get that capability then they are going to only develop for the biggest market, and it will slowly create a monopoly. Palm basically got apps by making their dev platform import iphone apps!
I think the funniest part of the podcast when one of the speakers said "everyone uses Mac OS X" this is funny because MAC OS X only has like 4% of the market..so unless I missed something, 4% is not everyone... It's the same way the editors think Everyone uses Gmail, when the fact is more people use WIndows Live Mail, something to the order of 400 million people per day use Windows Live Mail.
I think that Michael's point when he says that "If you have stuff elsewhere it's not our problem..." Is that Microsoft's mentality with the mobile market because this is a easy way to get rejected from the market. If you can't populate people's information from multiple sources like Gmail, Yahoo, POP3/IMAP, and other places that people have their data.
I am listening to the podcast right now and Josh COMPLETELY missed the point of the kin ... it wasn't designed FOR him.
Michael and his kids get it ... everything Josh is complaining shows he is totally out of touch with people under 20.