Mitsubishi and Tokyo Institute of Tech pair up to stop wasteful late-night windmills
By Tim Stevens 
posted May 10th 2010 3:16PM
posted May 10th 2010 3:16PM
posted May 10th 2010 3:16PM
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Hey Tim! Great post!
Just to bring to your notice... I think the right term would be wind turbine.
@who said what Yeah, but "wasteful wind turbines" doesn't flow as well.
@who said what
Just to be sure I checked with someone who works to fund and research public alternate energy projects and the like (and who happens to be my wife) about "windmill" vs. "wind turbine." She says "it can be argued either way, depending on which dictionary you read" about whether the terms are interchangeable, but agrees that "wind turbine" is the more common term for non-mechanical bladed spinning dealies. So, I think we're both okay here.
@TimStevens
Thanks for following up.
I'm no expert, but I've known the difference for a while. And for the lack of a more "authoritative/expert" source... I cite a .gov site:
http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter16.html
"Blowing wind spins the blades on a wind turbine -- just like a large toy pinwheel. This device is called a wind turbine and not a windmill. A windmill grinds or mills grain, or is used to pump water."
And our ever-loved wikipedia: (first few lines)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine
I'm not being picky here... but I just think a lot of people (including me a while back) are confused about the difference.
@who said what Yes, I know that "wind turbine" is the generally acceptable public term for a windmill that generates electricity, as I said initially. But informally they are interchangeable, and when an author wants to get his assonance on I think it's an acceptable liberty to take.
And my "source" works for the government as well.
@who said what
A message from Morbo:
http://morbo.ytmnd.com/
@who said what
Hey; leave it as windmills, I like to experience Danish culture.
@Professor Hubert J Farnsworth
I did! Not that I could edit it, anyway! :)
"Ever see a windmill spinning at night? Probably not, since it's usually quite dark"
Omg that made me lol hard for some reason.
@coolblue830 Me too... I never realized you need sunshine to make a windmill/turbine spin....LOL
Screw the environment
@Stevenk gtfo of earth
@Stevenk
Print screen, print it out, frame it and show your children's children in 50 years.
@nigra Ha ha! You're earths bitch.
@p0p0 you are my bitch which means you are earth's bitch as well
So, they are saying its not financially worthwhile at night for electric companies to purchase/use wind power. Then they say they are making a system to "route" power for electric vehicles. Ummm, why would any company do this? They already said it doesn't make "cents" to use that power. Just because you can in theory focus it to a particular outlet doesn't change the financial implications.
Next, in theory if there ARE a bunch of electric cars, then demand will go up, and IF it makes financial sense then the companies would begin using both traditional sources AND the wind sources without the need for this system. What's the point?
@smithme08
Here in Germany utility companies are bound by law to purchase the electricity from wind turbines and all other renewable sources for that matter. They are forced to reduce the power output of their conventional power plants or sell it abroad.
@SeeKo Ok, so they are already buying and using wind power among other sources...so STILL no need for this system :)
@smithme08
After reading the post, I was wondering the same thing. I don't see how this helps anything. Unless the hippies don't want to feel guilty about charging their cars from the grid powered by coal. Seems like a lot of infrastructure just for that.
@smithme08 I think what they are saying is that due to low usage at night most electric companies have sufficient power generation capabilities that wind-power isn't particularly cost effective.
You could look at this another way and that is when those petroleum-based generation facilities either become too expensive to operate or obsolete then perhaps wind or other alternative fuels will make sense.
In my mind, I am wondering why they can't store that energy in such as way as to be able to use it when they need it?
How is this worthwhile? The conventional powerplants are already idling, unless this prevents them from going above idle then it doesn't save any fuel or energy.
So why wouldn't we leave them running and sell the juice to China, where it's daytime? It could be sold dirt cheap - the wind is blowing anyway.
@Prostate of Grace
The technology for the transmission of power over vast distances like this is still in the early stages. Give it a few more years, then this might be possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
It actually already exists as a potential battery rather than a chemical battery. It works pretty good until the reservoir breaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk_Hydroelectric_Power_Station
@Octantis is fool. Sorry posted on wrong text chain.
What really should be done is investiture in battery banks (Like Molten Salt, for instance), which can store the power generated when load is low, and provide it when load is high. For instance, filling the batteries overnight with the "Excess" wind power generated, and draining the batteries to provide cheap power during the day, thus being able to keep the dirty "Traditional" facilities at a lower output level.
You know, like using a capacitor to smooth out power spikes, but at a grid-level.
Though this could also come as a new company, that buys the "ultra-cheap excess power" generated at low demand, and selling it straight back to the utility company for peak rates at high load times. In fact... Anyone care to invest in a green power startup I've just thought of?
@Anaerin
Trust me if it was economically feasible the energy companies would be doing it.
@Anaerin
It actually already exists as a potential battery rather than a chemical battery. It works pretty good until the reservoir breaches.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taum_Sauk_Hydroelectric_Power_Station
Engadget your RSS feed is broken. All I get is TV Squad. Been like this for the last two weeks. I have dumped my cache several times and this still persists.
@dooquie Anybody else seeing this? This is the first complaint I've heard.
@TimStevens
Nope, but TUAW was having the same problem earlier (see link)
http://www.tuaw.com/2010/05/06/dear-aunt-tuaw-why-are-there-tv-squad-posts-in-your-rss-feeds/
@TimStevens
A few days back, I typed in engadget.com and it kept taking me to TV squad. Got fixed by itself after a while.
@TimStevens, @dooquie
You're not alone. It's been broken for about two weeks for me as well.
@dooquie
happened to me for a bit, cleared my settings and all worked as it should, not sure what happened
Remember the T-zero from acpropulsion? (It was a tech-demo electric sports car that led the way for the tesla...) acpropulsion's "real work" was V2G "Vehicle-2-Grid" architecture work - ie. using idle electric cars to load-level the solar/wind-fed grid. They were doing this around 10 years ago - so it's sad to see that it's *still* "a few years away"...
What year is this, 1605? Wind turbine please, not windmill.
One of the major points of building wind turbines is because the sun does not shine at night. However, since the wind does not always blow, there needs to be a mix of methods of generating energy so that there is supply to meet demand.
Energy storage can take the many forms not the least of which is batteries. We are actually researching ways to port the energy to uses that have value and which might otherwise not occur or the occurrence of generates a useful "byproduct" no matter how much you create. Remember: Not everyone lives where there is an abundance of spare energy.
Just light up everything at night like a prison yard and you'll have a use for that excess juice. The astronomers will scream, but police and the security-at-all-costs crowd will rejoice. Now wasn't that easy?
The problem of excessive nighttime generation capacity will eventually be solved by real-time pricing for electrical power and an increased number of electric cars. Power companies will lower their prices at night and consumers will recharge their cars when rates are lowest, pushing nighttime demand (and prices) closer to daytime levels and to a point where there will be demand for wind turbine energy around the clock.
Tokyo Institute of Technology... You'll never be able to abbreviate that in publications, like you'd do with MIT.
@saposmak you made me laugh out loud at work!
@saposmak Just like Springfield Heights Insitute of Technology ... what a shame.
Give it 10 years and people will be charging their electric cars at night and this will be pointless. Also if its renewable then its not wasted?.?.? Am I right? Wind blows for free!
How about using the excess power to run electrolysis facilities producing hydrogen? The hydrogen could then be used for hydrogen powered cars or for hydrogen fuel cells.
@AbeFroman That's actually a pretty decent idea (i'm a big fan of hydrogen car tech). The main downside is that it would only be able to be run at night and the cost of setting up all the equipment for a few hydrogen plants which only run at night would probably be too high, so you'd probably have a hard time breaking even let alone paying back the initial equipment cost.
Still with some government grants it could be possible.
Well that's just stupid.
They can supply nighttime demands by idling current methods.
But what about STORING the nighttime wind turbine energy for day time use?
Seriously, no one thought of that?
Electric cars are not remotely competitive in today's market - so there's no reason to suspect they will make a significant difference anytime soon. (remember that the Prius took 10 years to sell a million vehicles, and it only had a price premium of ~5000-8000 over comparable vehicles. EV's and PHEV's have a 20,000+ price premium, and EV's have range restrictions.)
A better solution for off peak wind power would be to use that energy to produce fuel.
Doty energy has developed a novel process to use electricity to recycle CO2 and water back into gasoline, jet fuel, diesel, and other hydrocarbons.
www.WindFuels.com
That makes more sense than trying to force someone to buy a $40,000+ car that performs like a 20,000 car.