@cdf74dc9 It's the only reason why I havent updated my iPhone 3G to an android handset but that will change soon once we all demand for equal upgrade date for all android handset (sure they have some difference due to individual manufactures customization and what not but they can make it all the same for all handsets and still retain their customizations)
"sure they have some difference due to individual manufactures customization and what not but they can make it all the same for all handsets and still retain their customizations"
And therein lies the problem. I must ask, do you develop software? You've made quite the assertion there as if you have a deep knowledge of the code Motorola, HTC and other are deploying. It never crossed your mind that it's probably NOT as simple as you think it is? I know for instance that HTC's Sense UI already added features to 2.1 that are built into 2.2 (USB/Bluetooth tethering, enabling the FM radio, etc...) so your assumption it's just some skin atop the stock OS is wrong. This is what the manufacturers have to deal with. Most users are not aware of what goes into the OS they have but insist their demands are reasonable, all without knowing if that is correct or not.
@Tes So why make it all complicated if you are all going to use the same OS? Care to explain? And I know the differences but they still shouldn't make things so complicated, if they want android to really get up there then they better wake up and cater to the people the right way. No one wants to wai for 6 months to get an update that another person had for it for a month or 2.
That's no reason not to get an Android handset and stick with an iPhone 3G. Just because you can stay current with iPhone versions doesn't mean you are current with Android (or even achieve what Android has). Get a 2.1 or 2.2 Android phone and forget about it. Any update is a bonus. What kind of bonus are you gettting in on your 3G when it upgrades? Same ol' piddly updates for the past 3 years.
It is rather easy to make a unified update even tough the manufacturers ahve their own skin on it. All you need to have is a unified "Theme" code. In reality its not harder than telling the system to keep the old wallpaper and so forth. The problem lies just as you wrote in the "additional" functions. The manufacturers have to remove those functions (if they have been added by google). This could however be done quite easy if google only developed in their SDK an easy "add function" catagory instead of that the developers need to enter the base code and edit.
"So why make it all complicated if you are all going to use the same OS?"
Did you read the part about ADDING in the features that the stock OS left out?! That seems trivial to you? Then I'm afraid the conversation will go nowhere because you don't seem to understand or appreciate software development. In your mind, as a user, you want it to do X and you want a dev to just "make it so" as if there was zero barriers to development at all.
The reality is people on tech blogs, people like yourself and I are spoilt whiny little brats when we feel like it. We have NO right to an update. No phone manufacturer has to offer anything barring bug fixes of the current OS.
Let me ask you this. When you bought the phone did you buy it for "future" updates or for what it did for you at the time? Does it still fulfil it's function, that which made you purchase it in the first place? If so, why all the whining? It's a bonus! You're mad because they are not giving you a bonus they have no obligation to give you in the first place? You paid for the phone...you paid for a warranty that ensured your phone worked as it should for a reasonable time-frame. you DIDN'T pay for further update and you certainly didn't compensate Motorola or HTC or Apple or Samsung or Nokia or any other company that makes phones for future development.
As a person who works in software development I'm alarmed at this notion the work I do is pretty much worthless...unless I'm NOT doing it, then there's moaning about my previously worthless output not being high enough.
It is NOT a trivial couple of lines of code to implement core features into an OS that doesn't have then to begin with and it's not trivial to port that code sans some changes you made to a new underlying OS without severely breaking things (see the poor Motorola Milestone user I chat with below) I'm sure if he could have the situation back again he'd rather Motorola took an extra couple of months doing some QA on their code before releasing it all broken to the masses.
A phone buyer is not entitled to future OS upgrades? That's crazy, and completely contrary to users' reasonable expectations.
If someone tried to use an excuse like that for something Apple did, the Android crowd would shred him.
I use an iPhone, but am sick to death of the Jobs nazi and would switch to Android in a heartbeat if it wasn't for this unreliable OS upgrades issue. It's been said before, but this software fragmentation is THE big problem with the Android platform. Android apologists have lots of excuses, but the fact is that this needs to be fixed. I'm not going to buy an inferior Nexus One rather than a great HTC phone just to ensure that I get updates. So, for now, I'm not going to buy ANY Android device. And I'm sure I'm not alone.
"A phone buyer is not entitled to future OS upgrades? That's crazy, and completely contrary to users' reasonable expectations"
Wait..what?!? Think back...what was the first phone you had a software update for? I'm not talking bug fixes (I received several for my Nokia smartphone) I'm talking full blown architecture changes that take the software to a completely new OS number.
This is a very recent thing that phone manufacturers are doing and it's NOT a major expectation of most people. Apple handles it by springing the update on people who use iTunes frequently. My brother didn't even KNOW his iPhone could update to new firmware or what firmware was! I colleague who just left this job used to have a Nokia N95 and was not aware she could update it. Firmware/OS update are not announced on the evening news...they are announced on blogs like this, on the company website...on the manufacturers Twitter feed...these are things the average user NEVER looks at. I know countless people with Sony Ericsson phones who have never installed the software that came with the phone on a CD...so they have NEVER been prompted to update their firmware.
This isn't Android or Apple apologetics...this is a software dev tired of peoples ridiculous expectations. Can you code? If not, please don't tell developers that it's "easy" to implement some feature you'd like. If it's that easy, YOU do it. I wouldn't go to my dentist and insists this root canal lark is well easy. I'd expect him to hand me the implements and smugly step back with his arms folded.
@Tes Actually, I paid for all of that. Future update, reliability and I pauid way more than it costs to make an iPhone. So your argument there is void.We all have things that we look for when we buy a phone and when I stepped up to the smart phone arena, apple had what I was looking for. Sure there were some blackberries and what not but I chose apple. Did I get updates? Yes I did. How many people bough the iPhone 3G (I don't know the number but I'm sure that alll the money we paid for it is more than enough to warranty some updates now and then to make the phone better and is more than enough to cover any costs of paying the people behind the codes and what not).
Trust me we value your work but don't come here saying that it seems like we don't appreciate it or we think it's trivial. We demand something that is important and if I'm to switch to android with all these new versions springing up all the time then I'll want to be able to update my phone to the current OS without an issue. So if there are any kinks, then those are due to manufacturers wanting to be unique and what not. We want a platform that will be user friendly and offer updates to all handsets available at the same time and not this 6 months wait bs. Google made this OS open but it doesn't mean that you all have to create extra kinks just to distinguish yourself from other manufacture.
We pay for the devices and so we deserve updates. If you don't want people complaining then stop releasing updates and make sure that every single OS that comes out is only compatible with the phones that comes with it otherwise you got to live up to the expectations.
that's a freaking awesome idea!! money motivates people to do things faster. If Froyo comes faster on your EVO, droid, desire etc, would you pay for it if the price was reasonable? (somehow people will say yes, because the custom UI still adds features on top of stock android and this kinda balances out)
LOL...I was going to reply to him, but I literally would not have known where to start! People's understanding of software is so basic they think each bit can exist on it's own, with no integration or dependency and you can take modules away and put them back willy nilly as you pleased. They also think if that isn't the way it is it's some trivial weekend work to make it that way.
It beggers belief. And then if you point that out you're suddenly an Apple/Android/MS fanboy.
@Tes Your brother, that's his problem and if people were made aware of updates then I'm sure every single one of them would do it. And then they would find out that since your phone is HTC and not Motorola, then you got to wait for this time period ranging from 1 mnth to 6+ to get the update. So why offer it if you can't deliver to the masses at the same time regardless of handset manufacturer? This is why people loved Windos Mo 6 because they had it all. The only downside was trhe quality of some phones that didn't leave up to the statue of the OS. But google can make it mandatory that manufacturers should meet a certain standard and that they can all have one place where people, regardless of you handset, can go and update their phones when an update is out. Yes you are going to talk about differences, but why make them in first place?
@Tes I appreciate your knowledge and I appreciate what you do for the mobile community but I would also like you to understand the need for having updates when they come out. So if they can sort out their differences on how they make their handsets and all that then we'll all have timely updates and we'll be very happy.
"We pay for the devices and so we deserve updates"
Please name me another section of consumer electronics or indeed ANY products on Earth where this is true. Please. It seems mobile phone are unique.
do you expect Windows 7 free for buying XP? Do you expect your car manufacturer to give you the 2010 model of your car for buying the 2008 model? Does your TV manufacturer now have to upgrade you to a brand new 3D tv seeing as you bought an older model? Do the studios have to replace all your DVDs with Blu-Ray disks? Please, tell me what makes mobile phone different from EVERY other product you own, I'm intrigued where you got this rubbish from.
You pay for a product. Every product on this green Earth is intended to make the manufacturer a profit. Everything you own, if bought new, costs more to you than it cost to make. Don't be daft and think that then entitles you to more than is written on the box or the warranty inside the box. When you buy any item your rights and entitlements are spelled out right there...even on a box of cereal. Kellogs don't have to upgrade your Corn Flakes to Frosted Flakes because they dared to make a profit.
you are entitled to support, for a set period. you are entitled to your device working as it should...for a period dictated by local laws. that is ALL you are entitled to. To keep good will companies will release updates, but don't get it twisted. they're not your friend. they don't like you. They were ALREADY developing these updates...you and your old phone are guinea pigs for newer devices. You are glorified beta testers. That is all.
@etwashoo2 Actually I had battery issues and some apps were crashing and my updates fixed that. None of those things are happening. It also used to freeze and the latest update fixed that too. So actually the updates do matter a lot. Have you noticed the difference between Froyo and 2.1 on all those N1 posts. It shows that an update actually makes differences in many sectors, whether it be a smooth vdieo playback, better layout, better battery life or whatever it is, it's still a difference and it matters.
I'm most likely to get the N8 if not the next android or iPhone 4G. I'm just waiting til mid June early July to make the move.
@Tes You made me laugh.So if we are not entitled to updates then what's the point of making them? All I'm saying is that, if they are going to offer updated then please make them available to all handsets at the same time. You say the issue lies with the way handsets are made and the codes that are manufacturer exclusive. Then I say unify because if people can have the same OS at the same time just different hardware then they'll appreciate it more and manufacturers will be bound to make more money because every handset that is new will be worth it. Just saying dude, it should be made simpler and better for the people.I'm sure you fit the same description of beta tester.
@hero785 What Tes is saying: Updates are a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. If something is broken, as in, it doesn't work in the way it was intended at release or when it was SOLD (read: crashes and bugs), then you are entitled to a fix. Expecting anything more is expecting too much. Where's my S^3 update for my Nokia E71? What? I don't get it? PREPOSTEROUS!
Be glad that they're updating their phones AT ALL, rather than complaining about them not doing it faster. You ARE NOT "entitled" to an update at all, and you're NOT "entitled" to an update RIGHT NOW. Be patient. The developers aren't kicking their feet up and relaxing while you wait, they are WORKING.
@hero785 And for goodness sake, it's not as simple as writing a few lines of code and hitting a button. They have to take Google's code, integrate their own code, check for bugs, find out where the bugs are (which is HARD), patch them, test the patches, make sure it works with the hardware, re-implement or patch things if it doesn't, THEN test that the update happens smoothly and everything works (which it WON'T), when they find something that doesn't work they then have to find out why, patch it, re-test the patches, find everything else that doesn't work and patch the issues, test again, and then AND ONLY THEN can they push the upgrade.
You'd be the first to complain if something didn't work after the upgrade, or if the upgrade bricks your phone. If you want a good-quality, stable and smooth software upgrade, then wait!
OK, this "better for the people" thing you're talking about exposes your naivety. You actually think any company isn't thinking of their bottom line first and foremost? What do you do for a living? Would you do it for free if it "helped the people"? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. you seem to believe you're the only one entitled to make money. HTC is making money, Motorola is making money, Apple and Nokia...all making money. All mostly profitable. Spending large amounts on RD to ship out FREE updates to you is not in their best interests. In fact it guys like you who INSIST they MUST have the latest and greatest even though the "obsolete" model is serving your needs perfectly adequately, that drives them to do the things they do. You have shown them that getting an update is more important to you than stability, maturity and quality. Hence the buggy 2.1 update some Milestone users have received.
I ask again, is your phone now obsolete? Apple will update...as they always do, and large swathes of their users will be lulled into this false sense of an update...despite missing out on key, and sometimes seemingly arbitrary features.
Android is made by Google. Google has updated it. They have released the code and they have updated the one phone that was their responsibility. you keep saying "they" as if there is this single Android council pronouncing update schedules like gods. "They" is a disparate selection of companies providing phones, mids, netbooks and eBook readers. They have different needs and business practices. They cannot all release the same code for different purposes. Stop being so naive and come join th rest of us grown ups in the real world.
No, but I expect to receive Windows 7 updates as soon as they are rolled out, just like every other customer who has paid for Windows 7. Thankfully, this is how it works in the world of desktop OS's.
The problem is that handset manufacturers are obsessing over software customization, rather than focusing on hardware. They need to let go. IMO, "features" such as Sense or Blur are garbage and should be eliminated. If all of these phones were running a plain vanilla version of Android (like the N1), the work of updating the OS across multiple platforms would be significantly reduced.
@Tes I get your points. But just think of it when they (G and all other players) actually do things for consumer realizing that they won't have to worry about filing for bankruptcy someday simply because they cater to us the right way.
Sure they are money hungry and this will never happen, unless the earth turns upside down but you got to have hope and also know that we the mass control everything. But again, it's true that most people would simply stay just that "beta testers" and I hate to be one of them and reason why I demand the updates. But when it's all said and done, I think we can all agree that for once we want things to go smooth and get what we pay for. I'd be happy if my handset never gets updated but don't toy with my emotions when I know I can do it but I have to wait 6 months and there are actually benefits to it. Sure it's not a right, it's a privilege but why offer it if you ain't gonna implent it to all parties at the same time?
This is one thing I will not let go until something is done by Google and partners. I'm sure they can come up with something. Hopefully.
@ebgolfin Those ARE rolled out, and pretty quickly to boot - but 2.1 to 2.2 is more than just a service pack, it's like the difference between Vista and 7.
"No, but I expect to receive Windows 7 updates as soon as they are rolled out"
But you're not comparing like for like. On the FIRST day I received my HTC Desire I received and immediate update to 2.1. It was still 2.1 but an updated version of the SAME OS...that is what you're asking for, that is what you get. You're comparing patches to Windows 7 to a FULL OS upgrade! That makes no sense.
Have you used Android? Stock AND customised? HTCs Sense basically makes 2.1 into 2.2 lite. If Sense is crap then 2.2 it crap. 2.2 adds USB tethering...HTC sense added that from version 1.6! 2.2 adds cut and paste to all apps, HTC Sense already had that working. HTC Sense was the first to bring multi-touch where the stock Android had it missing. That "crap" brings features you're noe moaning you want from the update...BEFORE the update!
If you had used it you would know that. That is why this update, although big, is not the biggest deal to those who already had the HTC phones. We had some of the new features already...and some of the others are not yet fully implemented so don't really matter (i.e. you can't install apps to SD until the developer updates his app to do so, the improved app store that allows over the air installs in not yet up and running.)
If these phones are largely just screens with an OS on them, do you really expect all the companies that use it to leave it stock and basically say "there is zero value in choosing my handset over my rivals"
Yes because Google charges for everything.....(end sarcasm). Companies are in business to make money. So, yes they do what they have to, but are you really saying Google needs to worry about bankruptcy because they don't cater to us???? Because they don't listen to us???
I have used Sense on a Droid Eris, and Blur on a Droid Devour. I realize that these phones are quite humble compared to higher end models, but saying I was less than impressed with their software would be an understatement.
@hero785 you make it sound like it is easy. There are new phones coming out every couple of months and they don't have the same screen/resolution as the iphone. I have had all three of the iPhones and I loved getting updates every year (who doesn't) I sold my phone and got a nexus one. I understood android is innovating faster than any OS out there. This comes with advantages and disadvantages. One of them is fragmentation. It is not Google's fault that the HTCs, Motoroloas, Samsung, etc. Want to add to vanilla android. They are still going to innovate so they can make new features. You should understand this but for some reason you want to be ignorant and make it sound like Google is getting some kind of joy in making people wait. There is no special line of code that will upgrade all phones out there. If there was a better way then I am sure Google would of looked into it. They want android on all phones and the newest and best features.
Your iPhone 3G wont get a lot of the new iPhone OS 4.0 features like multitasking (or atleast what apple calls multitasking that is a different story) I promise there is no conspiracy and Google wants youto have the newest OS so.stop whining. You don't need to offend hard working devs because you think Google and their partners need to do things your way cause you want updates. Then You say that you don't want to buy an inferior product like the nexus one. Have you even used it before? It is a great phone. Why don't You just take your whiny ass ignorant attitude and go get ya the new iphone.
Thats your opinion. I think Sense adds life to my Incredible. I had the droid until it came out and LOVE how much little things are just simpler and more beautiful on Sense.
You have hit the nail on the head with your comment about manufacturers needing to differentiate their products in a crowded market. It's a necessary evil when everyone and their brother is making Android handsets. It also slows down the update process considerably.
I see some comments that 2.1-->2.2 is like a full blown, completely new OS and new product. Then, I see you comment that 2.2 features are mostly available with 3rd party skins such as Sense. Which is it? My thoughts are that if Google, the creators of the OS, thought that it was a full-blown new product you'd see it labeled as 3.0.
Yes, and that's your opinion. You love it and I think it's rubbish. This is fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. Either way, it's the Sense on your Incredible that will make it more difficult to bring you 2.2 and all of its optimizations. As long as you are OK with that, then it's not a big deal.
It's half and half. Yes, most of the features are available, but Google has also completely overhauled the way code is run on the device making it much faster at certain situations (browser, able to handle flash, games) But like I said, these things as of yet are not ready to be taken advantage of.
All the moaning I've seen so far are people who want the Hero or phones of that generation to have 2.2 or even 2.1. I'm on 2.1 and I'm patiently waiting. It seems the people having the most to say don't even OWN Android phones!
In this situation, I would think that non-owners (potential customers) would have just as much to say as those owning older devices. It's a big deal when you have OS updates where Google is significantly overhauling the efficiency of the OS and nobody is sure when (or if) the phones being sold at the local retailer will be able to reap the benefits. I find it hard to believe that anyone can honestly argue that this isn't a potentially confusing and frustrating situation.
@Tes "I know for instance that HTC's Sense UI already added features to 2.1 that are built into 2.2"
- Sounds like all the more reason to avoid custom UIs/implementations. That's what I love about the DROID: vanilla Android, no filler. Bells and whistles mean nothing to me if they delay the latest version of the OS.
"Sounds like all the more reason to avoid custom UIs/implementations"
????
Giving you features that are NOT in the stock OS is reason to AVOID Blur/Sense? I'm not getting you. You're basically saying "Well I'd hate to have feature X for 6 months...I'd rather NOT have it and then get an update to have said feature 6 months later"
You are arguing about features such as tethering. While this is nice, I think we all have to agree that it's something that appeals to a pretty small percentage of users. I have a feeling that if you asked a bunch of random people off the street what "tethering" was, you wouldn't find too many with the answer to that question.
On the other hand, the new Dalvik JIT compiler and V8 engine are "features" that actually will matter to people using their phones on a day-to-day basis. Will they know what those things are or what they mean? Absolutely not. They will, however, appreciate the improvements to speed and function of their devices if they are lucky enough to receive the update.
A friend with a Droid Devour recently complained to me that "it's so slow". This phone was very recently purchased. It's being sold right now at only $20 less than the standard Droid under contract. It looks similar, it's priced similar, but it's nowhere near the same thing. Isn't this incredibly confusing for an average person walking into Verizon to get a new phone? With 2.2 eventually on the Droid, there will be a performance gap the size of the Grand Canyon between the two phones, if there isn't already.
Now, we all know that it's the Devour's humble specs that are the mostly to blame for its performance, but the optimizations in 2.2 would go a long way towards making the phone more usable. Of course, I doubt the Devour will ever be updated to 2.2, which is a shame if you ask me. To each his own.
Wait...you point to tethering, a pretty basic feature, as some fringe occurrence that not many use...then cite the DALVIK JIT COMPILER as more of a mainstream issue?!
Again, I ask honestly...have you EVER used a recent 2.1 device? The speed boost would be literally unnoticeable in day to day use. The browser is already faster than the iPhone browser, screen transitions on the Desire are smooth as butter. there is NO lag. No common Joe on the street would know what you were talking about if you said "do you need this faster?"
Your friend bought a budget handset. It is low spec and low priced to reflect that. He will probably never see this update. The new code is faster but it's not magic...it can't make a slow processor fast. It's not because they're mean...it just wouldn't run...the phone is too slow.
I referenced the Dalvik JIT compiler because it's an underlying feature that increases the speed of the phone. Obviously people aren't going to know what the heck it is. It's the "faster" part that they'll understand. Everybody wants faster. I would venture to say that more people would prefer faster performance to tethering. I thought I made that pretty clear earlier, but sorry if I didn't.
Now, I haven't used a 2.2 device yet, but are you saying that, for example, the browser speed improvements aren't noticeable? That seems to contradict everything we're being told.
@hero785 I think at this point if a manufacturer decided to put only android stock on their phones they'd actually end up winning market share...instead of doing yet another customization to the OS.
Also, regarding the Devour, it's actually not priced as a budget phone at all. Verizon Wireless is selling the phone for $150 under contract, with the Droid being $200 under contract. Meanwhile, the Eris is being sold at $80.
While this is a bit of a separate argument, this has to be one of the most confusing lineups possible for people unfamiliar with this stuff. If I were to try to forget everything I know about mobile phones, I would walk into Verizon thinking that the $50 extra on the Droid is getting me a larger screen. After all, they look very similar and are made by the same company. In reality, the difference is huge. For the record, my friend with the Devour told me she had purchased a "Droid". When I saw the silver phone come out of her purse, I thought to myself "oh no" :)
when it comes to anything related to computers, the general public has no idea. do you want an i5 or an i7? oh, ive gotta get the i7! why? um i dunno, because it's 2 better?
and as for updates and whether you're entitled to them, updating and adding features is very different than fixing a problem. someone above was referring to them as if they were the same thing, but they're not. like tes said, google is doing something that has never been seen before by giving away new features for free. it's the norm in the oss world, but the general public has never experienced this and it seems like there is confusion about the differences between an update and a bugfix.
"I'm a college student looking for a new laptop, but almost all of my media I receive digitally. I'm looking for a laptop, not a netbook, without an optical drive, and budget sensitive. The optical drive will just be a waste of space, when I can have thinner laptop. What's out there?"
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All Android Makers need to have a unified update system. I hate this "6 months later" update thing. Come on you can do better than that.
@hero785
I fear the same for EVO. I guess long live the N1.
@cdf74dc9
It's the only reason why I havent updated my iPhone 3G to an android handset but that will change soon once we all demand for equal upgrade date for all android handset (sure they have some difference due to individual manufactures customization and what not but they can make it all the same for all handsets and still retain their customizations)
@hero785
"sure they have some difference due to individual manufactures customization and what not but they can make it all the same for all handsets and still retain their customizations"
And therein lies the problem. I must ask, do you develop software? You've made quite the assertion there as if you have a deep knowledge of the code Motorola, HTC and other are deploying. It never crossed your mind that it's probably NOT as simple as you think it is? I know for instance that HTC's Sense UI already added features to 2.1 that are built into 2.2 (USB/Bluetooth tethering, enabling the FM radio, etc...) so your assumption it's just some skin atop the stock OS is wrong. This is what the manufacturers have to deal with. Most users are not aware of what goes into the OS they have but insist their demands are reasonable, all without knowing if that is correct or not.
@Tes
So why make it all complicated if you are all going to use the same OS? Care to explain? And I know the differences but they still shouldn't make things so complicated, if they want android to really get up there then they better wake up and cater to the people the right way. No one wants to wai for 6 months to get an update that another person had for it for a month or 2.
@hero785
That's no reason not to get an Android handset and stick with an iPhone 3G. Just because you can stay current with iPhone versions doesn't mean you are current with Android (or even achieve what Android has). Get a 2.1 or 2.2 Android phone and forget about it. Any update is a bonus. What kind of bonus are you gettting in on your 3G when it upgrades? Same ol' piddly updates for the past 3 years.
@Tes
It is rather easy to make a unified update even tough the manufacturers ahve their own skin on it. All you need to have is a unified "Theme" code. In reality its not harder than telling the system to keep the old wallpaper and so forth. The problem lies just as you wrote in the "additional" functions. The manufacturers have to remove those functions (if they have been added by google). This could however be done quite easy if google only developed in their SDK an easy "add function" catagory instead of that the developers need to enter the base code and edit.
@hero785
"So why make it all complicated if you are all going to use the same OS?"
Did you read the part about ADDING in the features that the stock OS left out?! That seems trivial to you? Then I'm afraid the conversation will go nowhere because you don't seem to understand or appreciate software development. In your mind, as a user, you want it to do X and you want a dev to just "make it so" as if there was zero barriers to development at all.
The reality is people on tech blogs, people like yourself and I are spoilt whiny little brats when we feel like it. We have NO right to an update. No phone manufacturer has to offer anything barring bug fixes of the current OS.
Let me ask you this. When you bought the phone did you buy it for "future" updates or for what it did for you at the time? Does it still fulfil it's function, that which made you purchase it in the first place? If so, why all the whining? It's a bonus! You're mad because they are not giving you a bonus they have no obligation to give you in the first place? You paid for the phone...you paid for a warranty that ensured your phone worked as it should for a reasonable time-frame. you DIDN'T pay for further update and you certainly didn't compensate Motorola or HTC or Apple or Samsung or Nokia or any other company that makes phones for future development.
As a person who works in software development I'm alarmed at this notion the work I do is pretty much worthless...unless I'm NOT doing it, then there's moaning about my previously worthless output not being high enough.
It is NOT a trivial couple of lines of code to implement core features into an OS that doesn't have then to begin with and it's not trivial to port that code sans some changes you made to a new underlying OS without severely breaking things (see the poor Motorola Milestone user I chat with below) I'm sure if he could have the situation back again he'd rather Motorola took an extra couple of months doing some QA on their code before releasing it all broken to the masses.
@hero785
Yes, please!
Even with a Milestone, which is basically the GSM version of the Droid, nobody knows when (or if!) we'll be getting 2.2...
@Tes
A phone buyer is not entitled to future OS upgrades? That's crazy, and completely contrary to users' reasonable expectations.
If someone tried to use an excuse like that for something Apple did, the Android crowd would shred him.
I use an iPhone, but am sick to death of the Jobs nazi and would switch to Android in a heartbeat if it wasn't for this unreliable OS upgrades issue. It's been said before, but this software fragmentation is THE big problem with the Android platform. Android apologists have lots of excuses, but the fact is that this needs to be fixed. I'm not going to buy an inferior Nexus One rather than a great HTC phone just to ensure that I get updates. So, for now, I'm not going to buy ANY Android device. And I'm sure I'm not alone.
@Zhuzhu
"A phone buyer is not entitled to future OS upgrades? That's crazy, and completely contrary to users' reasonable expectations"
Wait..what?!? Think back...what was the first phone you had a software update for? I'm not talking bug fixes (I received several for my Nokia smartphone) I'm talking full blown architecture changes that take the software to a completely new OS number.
This is a very recent thing that phone manufacturers are doing and it's NOT a major expectation of most people. Apple handles it by springing the update on people who use iTunes frequently. My brother didn't even KNOW his iPhone could update to new firmware or what firmware was! I colleague who just left this job used to have a Nokia N95 and was not aware she could update it. Firmware/OS update are not announced on the evening news...they are announced on blogs like this, on the company website...on the manufacturers Twitter feed...these are things the average user NEVER looks at. I know countless people with Sony Ericsson phones who have never installed the software that came with the phone on a CD...so they have NEVER been prompted to update their firmware.
This isn't Android or Apple apologetics...this is a software dev tired of peoples ridiculous expectations. Can you code? If not, please don't tell developers that it's "easy" to implement some feature you'd like. If it's that easy, YOU do it. I wouldn't go to my dentist and insists this root canal lark is well easy. I'd expect him to hand me the implements and smugly step back with his arms folded.
@tvoben
I can tell YOUR not a programmer. Lol.
www.androidhelpers.com
@Tes
Actually, I paid for all of that. Future update, reliability and I pauid way more than it costs to make an iPhone. So your argument there is void.We all have things that we look for when we buy a phone and when I stepped up to the smart phone arena, apple had what I was looking for. Sure there were some blackberries and what not but I chose apple. Did I get updates? Yes I did. How many people bough the iPhone 3G (I don't know the number but I'm sure that alll the money we paid for it is more than enough to warranty some updates now and then to make the phone better and is more than enough to cover any costs of paying the people behind the codes and what not).
Trust me we value your work but don't come here saying that it seems like we don't appreciate it or we think it's trivial. We demand something that is important and if I'm to switch to android with all these new versions springing up all the time then I'll want to be able to update my phone to the current OS without an issue. So if there are any kinks, then those are due to manufacturers wanting to be unique and what not. We want a platform that will be user friendly and offer updates to all handsets available at the same time and not this 6 months wait bs. Google made this OS open but it doesn't mean that you all have to create extra kinks just to distinguish yourself from other manufacture.
We pay for the devices and so we deserve updates. If you don't want people complaining then stop releasing updates and make sure that every single OS that comes out is only compatible with the phones that comes with it otherwise you got to live up to the expectations.
@Tes
that's a freaking awesome idea!! money motivates people to do things faster. If Froyo comes faster on your EVO, droid, desire etc, would you pay for it if the price was reasonable? (somehow people will say yes, because the custom UI still adds features on top of stock android and this kinda balances out)
@neoelectrex
LOL...I was going to reply to him, but I literally would not have known where to start! People's understanding of software is so basic they think each bit can exist on it's own, with no integration or dependency and you can take modules away and put them back willy nilly as you pleased. They also think if that isn't the way it is it's some trivial weekend work to make it that way.
It beggers belief. And then if you point that out you're suddenly an Apple/Android/MS fanboy.
@Tes
Your brother, that's his problem and if people were made aware of updates then I'm sure every single one of them would do it. And then they would find out that since your phone is HTC and not Motorola, then you got to wait for this time period ranging from 1 mnth to 6+ to get the update. So why offer it if you can't deliver to the masses at the same time regardless of handset manufacturer? This is why people loved Windos Mo 6 because they had it all. The only downside was trhe quality of some phones that didn't leave up to the statue of the OS. But google can make it mandatory that manufacturers should meet a certain standard and that they can all have one place where people, regardless of you handset, can go and update their phones when an update is out. Yes you are going to talk about differences, but why make them in first place?
@Tes
I appreciate your knowledge and I appreciate what you do for the mobile community but I would also like you to understand the need for having updates when they come out. So if they can sort out their differences on how they make their handsets and all that then we'll all have timely updates and we'll be very happy.
@hero785
"We pay for the devices and so we deserve updates"
Please name me another section of consumer electronics or indeed ANY products on Earth where this is true. Please. It seems mobile phone are unique.
do you expect Windows 7 free for buying XP? Do you expect your car manufacturer to give you the 2010 model of your car for buying the 2008 model? Does your TV manufacturer now have to upgrade you to a brand new 3D tv seeing as you bought an older model? Do the studios have to replace all your DVDs with Blu-Ray disks? Please, tell me what makes mobile phone different from EVERY other product you own, I'm intrigued where you got this rubbish from.
You pay for a product. Every product on this green Earth is intended to make the manufacturer a profit. Everything you own, if bought new, costs more to you than it cost to make. Don't be daft and think that then entitles you to more than is written on the box or the warranty inside the box. When you buy any item your rights and entitlements are spelled out right there...even on a box of cereal. Kellogs don't have to upgrade your Corn Flakes to Frosted Flakes because they dared to make a profit.
you are entitled to support, for a set period. you are entitled to your device working as it should...for a period dictated by local laws. that is ALL you are entitled to. To keep good will companies will release updates, but don't get it twisted. they're not your friend. they don't like you. They were ALREADY developing these updates...you and your old phone are guinea pigs for newer devices. You are glorified beta testers. That is all.
Don't mistake that for entitlement.
@etwashoo2
Actually I had battery issues and some apps were crashing and my updates fixed that. None of those things are happening. It also used to freeze and the latest update fixed that too. So actually the updates do matter a lot. Have you noticed the difference between Froyo and 2.1 on all those N1 posts. It shows that an update actually makes differences in many sectors, whether it be a smooth vdieo playback, better layout, better battery life or whatever it is, it's still a difference and it matters.
I'm most likely to get the N8 if not the next android or iPhone 4G. I'm just waiting til mid June early July to make the move.
@Tes
You made me laugh.So if we are not entitled to updates then what's the point of making them? All I'm saying is that, if they are going to offer updated then please make them available to all handsets at the same time. You say the issue lies with the way handsets are made and the codes that are manufacturer exclusive. Then I say unify because if people can have the same OS at the same time just different hardware then they'll appreciate it more and manufacturers will be bound to make more money because every handset that is new will be worth it. Just saying dude, it should be made simpler and better for the people.I'm sure you fit the same description of beta tester.
@hero785 What Tes is saying:
Updates are a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. If something is broken, as in, it doesn't work in the way it was intended at release or when it was SOLD (read: crashes and bugs), then you are entitled to a fix. Expecting anything more is expecting too much. Where's my S^3 update for my Nokia E71? What? I don't get it? PREPOSTEROUS!
Be glad that they're updating their phones AT ALL, rather than complaining about them not doing it faster. You ARE NOT "entitled" to an update at all, and you're NOT "entitled" to an update RIGHT NOW. Be patient. The developers aren't kicking their feet up and relaxing while you wait, they are WORKING.
@hero785 And for goodness sake, it's not as simple as writing a few lines of code and hitting a button. They have to take Google's code, integrate their own code, check for bugs, find out where the bugs are (which is HARD), patch them, test the patches, make sure it works with the hardware, re-implement or patch things if it doesn't, THEN test that the update happens smoothly and everything works (which it WON'T), when they find something that doesn't work they then have to find out why, patch it, re-test the patches, find everything else that doesn't work and patch the issues, test again, and then AND ONLY THEN can they push the upgrade.
You'd be the first to complain if something didn't work after the upgrade, or if the upgrade bricks your phone. If you want a good-quality, stable and smooth software upgrade, then wait!
@hero785
OK, this "better for the people" thing you're talking about exposes your naivety. You actually think any company isn't thinking of their bottom line first and foremost? What do you do for a living? Would you do it for free if it "helped the people"? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. you seem to believe you're the only one entitled to make money. HTC is making money, Motorola is making money, Apple and Nokia...all making money. All mostly profitable. Spending large amounts on RD to ship out FREE updates to you is not in their best interests. In fact it guys like you who INSIST they MUST have the latest and greatest even though the "obsolete" model is serving your needs perfectly adequately, that drives them to do the things they do. You have shown them that getting an update is more important to you than stability, maturity and quality. Hence the buggy 2.1 update some Milestone users have received.
I ask again, is your phone now obsolete? Apple will update...as they always do, and large swathes of their users will be lulled into this false sense of an update...despite missing out on key, and sometimes seemingly arbitrary features.
Android is made by Google. Google has updated it. They have released the code and they have updated the one phone that was their responsibility. you keep saying "they" as if there is this single Android council pronouncing update schedules like gods. "They" is a disparate selection of companies providing phones, mids, netbooks and eBook readers. They have different needs and business practices. They cannot all release the same code for different purposes. Stop being so naive and come join th rest of us grown ups in the real world.
@Tes
No, but I expect to receive Windows 7 updates as soon as they are rolled out, just like every other customer who has paid for Windows 7. Thankfully, this is how it works in the world of desktop OS's.
The problem is that handset manufacturers are obsessing over software customization, rather than focusing on hardware. They need to let go. IMO, "features" such as Sense or Blur are garbage and should be eliminated. If all of these phones were running a plain vanilla version of Android (like the N1), the work of updating the OS across multiple platforms would be significantly reduced.
@Zhuzhu who cares if you don't get it at the same time? What are you 10? Grrow up.
@Tes
I get your points. But just think of it when they (G and all other players) actually do things for consumer realizing that they won't have to worry about filing for bankruptcy someday simply because they cater to us the right way.
Sure they are money hungry and this will never happen, unless the earth turns upside down but you got to have hope and also know that we the mass control everything. But again, it's true that most people would simply stay just that "beta testers" and I hate to be one of them and reason why I demand the updates. But when it's all said and done, I think we can all agree that for once we want things to go smooth and get what we pay for. I'd be happy if my handset never gets updated but don't toy with my emotions when I know I can do it but I have to wait 6 months and there are actually benefits to it. Sure it's not a right, it's a privilege but why offer it if you ain't gonna implent it to all parties at the same time?
This is one thing I will not let go until something is done by Google and partners. I'm sure they can come up with something. Hopefully.
@ebgolfin Those ARE rolled out, and pretty quickly to boot - but 2.1 to 2.2 is more than just a service pack, it's like the difference between Vista and 7.
@ebgolfin
"No, but I expect to receive Windows 7 updates as soon as they are rolled out"
But you're not comparing like for like. On the FIRST day I received my HTC Desire I received and immediate update to 2.1. It was still 2.1 but an updated version of the SAME OS...that is what you're asking for, that is what you get. You're comparing patches to Windows 7 to a FULL OS upgrade! That makes no sense.
Have you used Android? Stock AND customised? HTCs Sense basically makes 2.1 into 2.2 lite. If Sense is crap then 2.2 it crap. 2.2 adds USB tethering...HTC sense added that from version 1.6! 2.2 adds cut and paste to all apps, HTC Sense already had that working. HTC Sense was the first to bring multi-touch where the stock Android had it missing. That "crap" brings features you're noe moaning you want from the update...BEFORE the update!
If you had used it you would know that. That is why this update, although big, is not the biggest deal to those who already had the HTC phones. We had some of the new features already...and some of the others are not yet fully implemented so don't really matter (i.e. you can't install apps to SD until the developer updates his app to do so, the improved app store that allows over the air installs in not yet up and running.)
If these phones are largely just screens with an OS on them, do you really expect all the companies that use it to leave it stock and basically say "there is zero value in choosing my handset over my rivals"
You guys are seriously naive...really, it's bad.
@hero785
Yes because Google charges for everything.....(end sarcasm). Companies are in business to make money. So, yes they do what they have to, but are you really saying Google needs to worry about bankruptcy because they don't cater to us???? Because they don't listen to us???
@Tes
I have used Sense on a Droid Eris, and Blur on a Droid Devour. I realize that these phones are quite humble compared to higher end models, but saying I was less than impressed with their software would be an understatement.
@hero785 you make it sound like it is easy. There are new phones coming out every couple of months and they don't have the same screen/resolution as the iphone. I have had all three of the iPhones and I loved getting updates every year (who doesn't) I sold my phone and got a nexus one. I understood android is innovating faster than any OS out there. This comes with advantages and disadvantages. One of them is fragmentation. It is not Google's fault that the HTCs, Motoroloas, Samsung, etc. Want to add to vanilla android. They are still going to innovate so they can make new features. You should understand this but for some reason you want to be ignorant and make it sound like Google is getting some kind of joy in making people wait. There is no special line of code that will upgrade all phones out there. If there was a better way then I am sure Google would of looked into it. They want android on all phones and the newest and best features.
Your iPhone 3G wont get a lot of the new iPhone OS 4.0 features like multitasking (or atleast what apple calls multitasking that is a different story) I promise there is no conspiracy and Google wants youto have the newest OS so.stop whining. You don't need to offend hard working devs because you think Google and their partners need to do things your way cause you want updates. Then You say that you don't want to buy an inferior product like the nexus one. Have you even used it before? It is a great phone. Why don't You just take your whiny ass ignorant attitude and go get ya the new iphone.
@ebgolfin
Thats your opinion. I think Sense adds life to my Incredible. I had the droid until it came out and LOVE how much little things are just simpler and more beautiful on Sense.
@Tes
You have hit the nail on the head with your comment about manufacturers needing to differentiate their products in a crowded market. It's a necessary evil when everyone and their brother is making Android handsets. It also slows down the update process considerably.
I see some comments that 2.1-->2.2 is like a full blown, completely new OS and new product. Then, I see you comment that 2.2 features are mostly available with 3rd party skins such as Sense. Which is it? My thoughts are that if Google, the creators of the OS, thought that it was a full-blown new product you'd see it labeled as 3.0.
@Drew3739
Yes, and that's your opinion. You love it and I think it's rubbish. This is fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. Either way, it's the Sense on your Incredible that will make it more difficult to bring you 2.2 and all of its optimizations. As long as you are OK with that, then it's not a big deal.
@ebgolfin
It's half and half. Yes, most of the features are available, but Google has also completely overhauled the way code is run on the device making it much faster at certain situations (browser, able to handle flash, games) But like I said, these things as of yet are not ready to be taken advantage of.
All the moaning I've seen so far are people who want the Hero or phones of that generation to have 2.2 or even 2.1. I'm on 2.1 and I'm patiently waiting. It seems the people having the most to say don't even OWN Android phones!
@Tes
In this situation, I would think that non-owners (potential customers) would have just as much to say as those owning older devices. It's a big deal when you have OS updates where Google is significantly overhauling the efficiency of the OS and nobody is sure when (or if) the phones being sold at the local retailer will be able to reap the benefits. I find it hard to believe that anyone can honestly argue that this isn't a potentially confusing and frustrating situation.
@Tes "I know for instance that HTC's Sense UI already added features to 2.1 that are built into 2.2"
- Sounds like all the more reason to avoid custom UIs/implementations. That's what I love about the DROID: vanilla Android, no filler. Bells and whistles mean nothing to me if they delay the latest version of the OS.
@LANjackal
"Sounds like all the more reason to avoid custom UIs/implementations"
????
Giving you features that are NOT in the stock OS is reason to AVOID Blur/Sense? I'm not getting you. You're basically saying "Well I'd hate to have feature X for 6 months...I'd rather NOT have it and then get an update to have said feature 6 months later"
@hero785
Just gotta say guys. This was an excellent debate. I found it very refreshing and worthwhile to read. +1 for all of you.
@Tes
You are arguing about features such as tethering. While this is nice, I think we all have to agree that it's something that appeals to a pretty small percentage of users. I have a feeling that if you asked a bunch of random people off the street what "tethering" was, you wouldn't find too many with the answer to that question.
On the other hand, the new Dalvik JIT compiler and V8 engine are "features" that actually will matter to people using their phones on a day-to-day basis. Will they know what those things are or what they mean? Absolutely not. They will, however, appreciate the improvements to speed and function of their devices if they are lucky enough to receive the update.
A friend with a Droid Devour recently complained to me that "it's so slow". This phone was very recently purchased. It's being sold right now at only $20 less than the standard Droid under contract. It looks similar, it's priced similar, but it's nowhere near the same thing. Isn't this incredibly confusing for an average person walking into Verizon to get a new phone? With 2.2 eventually on the Droid, there will be a performance gap the size of the Grand Canyon between the two phones, if there isn't already.
Now, we all know that it's the Devour's humble specs that are the mostly to blame for its performance, but the optimizations in 2.2 would go a long way towards making the phone more usable. Of course, I doubt the Devour will ever be updated to 2.2, which is a shame if you ask me. To each his own.
@ebgolfin
Wait...you point to tethering, a pretty basic feature, as some fringe occurrence that not many use...then cite the DALVIK JIT COMPILER as more of a mainstream issue?!
Again, I ask honestly...have you EVER used a recent 2.1 device? The speed boost would be literally unnoticeable in day to day use. The browser is already faster than the iPhone browser, screen transitions on the Desire are smooth as butter. there is NO lag. No common Joe on the street would know what you were talking about if you said "do you need this faster?"
Your friend bought a budget handset. It is low spec and low priced to reflect that. He will probably never see this update. The new code is faster but it's not magic...it can't make a slow processor fast. It's not because they're mean...it just wouldn't run...the phone is too slow.
@Tes
I referenced the Dalvik JIT compiler because it's an underlying feature that increases the speed of the phone. Obviously people aren't going to know what the heck it is. It's the "faster" part that they'll understand. Everybody wants faster. I would venture to say that more people would prefer faster performance to tethering. I thought I made that pretty clear earlier, but sorry if I didn't.
Now, I haven't used a 2.2 device yet, but are you saying that, for example, the browser speed improvements aren't noticeable? That seems to contradict everything we're being told.
@hero785 I think at this point if a manufacturer decided to put only android stock on their phones they'd actually end up winning market share...instead of doing yet another customization to the OS.
@Tes
Also, regarding the Devour, it's actually not priced as a budget phone at all. Verizon Wireless is selling the phone for $150 under contract, with the Droid being $200 under contract. Meanwhile, the Eris is being sold at $80.
While this is a bit of a separate argument, this has to be one of the most confusing lineups possible for people unfamiliar with this stuff. If I were to try to forget everything I know about mobile phones, I would walk into Verizon thinking that the $50 extra on the Droid is getting me a larger screen. After all, they look very similar and are made by the same company. In reality, the difference is huge. For the record, my friend with the Devour told me she had purchased a "Droid". When I saw the silver phone come out of her purse, I thought to myself "oh no" :)
@ebgolfin
when it comes to anything related to computers, the general public has no idea. do you want an i5 or an i7? oh, ive gotta get the i7! why? um i dunno, because it's 2 better?
and as for updates and whether you're entitled to them, updating and adding features is very different than fixing a problem. someone above was referring to them as if they were the same thing, but they're not. like tes said, google is doing something that has never been seen before by giving away new features for free. it's the norm in the oss world, but the general public has never experienced this and it seems like there is confusion about the differences between an update and a bugfix.
@neoelectrex what are you going to tell MY "not a programmer"? Leave MY "not a programmer" out of this.
....or did you mean "you're not a programmer"? Because, you know, that makes sense!