The problem is cost. Why a Windows-based laptop cost so much less, in terms of manufacturing cost, is because Apple makes everything in house.
I mean, look at most Windows-based laptop, many use cheap plastic for things such as the body and the trackpad. Apple uses a nice aluminum for the body, the keys, and slaps in a very multi-touch trackpad. Doing this all in house is EXPENSIVE, no matter which way you cut it. It's not all about the parts, you also have to think about the physical form.
But to say how there isn't an Apple tax would simply be dishonest of me to say.
@iDamien I like Apple's laptops alot. I think this generation is just particularly out of sync as far as hardware cost. There's been generations of the MBP that were carried a small premium.. The new i7's don't though.
There's advantages to the way Apple does their manufacturing process too, they use the same chassis across multiple years, I'm sure that brings the price down for them. (as well as power adapters, trackpads etc)
Not all PC's are thinkpads :) HP Envy has a magnesium/aluminum case, there's other brands doing the same.
Granted they're all copying apple, but the price is better :).
I think $1500, with a GPU that has a 1gb of ram instead of 512 would be a fair price for the MBP. Then bump that ~150 for the updated screen. we can work this out
Of give me an ipod for a touch pad on the laptop, then it's worth $2000 :)
I've been looking these past few months for a notebook specced similar to MacBook Pros, and I have to tell you - how the hell nobody in the PC business ever thought of including 2 graphic cards in a laptop _AND_ add backlight to the keyboard?
I'm not Apple fanboy, but I can't really find a laptop that has both of those features :-( That's the only reason I'm actually considering buying a MacBook Pro.
@RadiXe I have an Envy with the updated 1080 screen, just an i5 though and I paid $1100 for it. (current rev) It would have been about $150 more for the i7.
The non-Apple world do have sales :)
If you go strict retail though, they do clock in more.. but sales and coupon sites definitely help
Apple has the pickiest customer base. People have gotten a new machine for a dead pixel, a tiny scratch you can barely see, a power button that doesn't sit completely flush and generic LCD problems. They all add up to the cost.
@iDamien Good design 'ain't free either. You have to hire great designers and engineers with correspondingly big salaries. Then you have to pay them to design not only the products that we see in the stores, but also the 50 iterations leading up to them that we don't, plus the other 50 design ideas that never made the cut at all.
@iDamien In-house? MacBooks are made out of many of the same hardware components as Windows laptops.
That 'magical multi-touch trackpad' you speak of? It's a Synaptics touchpad. Their various touchpads have appeared in many Windows machines, for many many years.
The MacBook, MacBook Pro 13 inch (and somewhat the 15 incher) all represent good value when compared to Windows counterparts, in terms of overall power, build quality, battery life etc. The 17 incher.. not so much.
Dude Apple does NOT do their manufacturing or assembly in-house. Every Apple product is "Designed in Cupertino" but it is mass produced in sweatshops in China just like all the other computers (DELL still does some work out of Malaysia though). Apple does design higher quality hardware, but not enough to justify the cost (I have a MBP though). They just want a higher profit margin, and that is literally the bottom line.
To everyone else talking about "comparable specs"... sure you can find similar & better components in other lappys, but if you want to be legit you have run Windows of Linux... I have tried both and I can live with the inferior components of an Apple if I can have a strong and durable lappy, with a reliable OS that just works.
@Znuff a bunch of Sony VAIO Z series have switchable graphics(two graphics card) AND backlit keyboard
Asus should be coming out with several laptops with Nvidia Optimus and similar specs including USB 3.0, don't know if they will have backlit keyboard though
@Znuff try taking a look at ASUS 15" laptops. they have either an NVIDIA 260M or a 360M graphics card, some have dual hard drive support, and one has 3D for under $1500
You are living in a dream world, Apple design in house but they don't make all the parts, they used Intel chip set motherboards and now use Nvidia, all the keyboards they use are Foxxcon, same as the ones Sony VAIOs used first. The metal cases look very nice but their design touches are starting to be a bit silly like that stickout SD card reader and those wonderful metal cases roast peoples legs now because of a badly designed cooling system. They also use EFI instead of BIOS, not an Apple innovation either designed and built by Intel originally used in servers. The magsafes also look lovely but my wife is now on her 3rd in 3 years which isn't very nice considering they cost three times as much as normal PC laptop's. The only real custom part of a Mac is OS X which means you pay a hell of a lot more for OS X than anyone does for Windows. Apple fans will swallow any old nonsense.
@Znuff Sony thought of two graphics cards... in 2006... with the SZ series and continues to do it with the Z series. That was the first time that idea was ever executed. Then Apple was like "hey that's a great idea, lets take it and call it our own by renaming it something odd!"
@nicholasphan i would buy a sony vaio z cause the spec's and specially the ssd options. 1gb vram dd3 is not the same as 1gb gddr3 or gddr5. ddr3 are cheaper and lower perfomance than gddr3 o gddr5. check out this article if wanna know how much memomry do you need in a laptop to play games http://www.barefeats.com/mbpp22.html
@Passa Are you high? Motherboard, completely custom, chassis completely custom. While Synaptics made that touchpad I assure you it ain't no off the shelf that they just hammered into a MBP chassis.
The Fit and Finish on Apple laptops is far superior to other manufacturers. HP and Dell can come close but the attention to detail just isn't the same with other laptops. I would love the apple hardware to be cheaper but I wouldn't trade my new MBP 15' for anything except a 17'.
And I was a 20 year Windows user until Apple started switching over to intel.
@iDamien Apple doesn't do everything in house, haven't you seen how the people who keep killing themselves at the Foxxcon plant are making Apple, Dell and other products. They are expensive because there hardware and software are made for each other and so they can. That's why you can't go buy an HP or Dell and run Snow Leopard on them and that why you don't buy Microsoft hardware when you buy Windows 7. Apple is a bigger monopoly than Microsoft. I'm probably still going to buy an iMac at some time though...
@ultrantoday I think another hardware refresh for the 13" - there's not much pro about it compared to the 15" in terms of the solicon inside. Also i think prices need to be more inline with the rest of the maket.
HP Envy has windows. surly the point of running a mac is to jump aboard the snow leopard?
3G would be nice after all this is premium hardware.
and of course the ipod touch in the palm rest as a kind of secondary screen/interface.
"I'm moving to a small studio and for some reason the cable connection is in an awkward place and I need a way to transmit HD quality video and audio no more than 20 feet away. What is the best wireless HDMI transmitter / receiver for this situation? Thanks!"
The most commented posts on Engadget over the past 24 hours.
Now that we've thrown 'em off the trail, use the form below to get in touch with the people at Engadget. Please fill in all of the required fields because they're required.
Lowered the price $700. Give the GPU more dedicated memory
Maybe not that steep of a price cut, but definitely some sort of price cut, or make it a better value for the money.
@iDamien
I think he means lower the price BY $700. not to $700
@OrderChaos Yes I mean by $700, not to $700.
You can easily get it's specs in the pc world (with a better GPU) for $1200 or less.
I guess we can throw an extra $100 for the apple stickers that come with it, but you should have plenty of those by now.
@ultrantoday
The problem is cost. Why a Windows-based laptop cost so much less, in terms of manufacturing cost, is because Apple makes everything in house.
I mean, look at most Windows-based laptop, many use cheap plastic for things such as the body and the trackpad. Apple uses a nice aluminum for the body, the keys, and slaps in a very multi-touch trackpad. Doing this all in house is EXPENSIVE, no matter which way you cut it. It's not all about the parts, you also have to think about the physical form.
But to say how there isn't an Apple tax would simply be dishonest of me to say.
@iDamien I like Apple's laptops alot. I think this generation is just particularly out of sync as far as hardware cost. There's been generations of the MBP that were carried a small premium.. The new i7's don't though.
There's advantages to the way Apple does their manufacturing process too, they use the same chassis across multiple years, I'm sure that brings the price down for them. (as well as power adapters, trackpads etc)
Not all PC's are thinkpads :) HP Envy has a magnesium/aluminum case, there's other brands doing the same.
Granted they're all copying apple, but the price is better :).
I think $1500, with a GPU that has a 1gb of ram instead of 512 would be a fair price for the MBP. Then bump that ~150 for the updated screen. we can work this out
Of give me an ipod for a touch pad on the laptop, then it's worth $2000 :)
@ultrantoday
I can't think of a decent looking i7 Machine for $1200. the closest one is lenovo Y550, and it's looks is marginal at best.
I've been searching for months for a similar spec'ed machine, I found vaio Z, HP envy, and elitebook. But those are similarly priced over $2000.
@ultrantoday
I've been looking these past few months for a notebook specced similar to MacBook Pros, and I have to tell you - how the hell nobody in the PC business ever thought of including 2 graphic cards in a laptop _AND_ add backlight to the keyboard?
I'm not Apple fanboy, but I can't really find a laptop that has both of those features :-( That's the only reason I'm actually considering buying a MacBook Pro.
@RadiXe I have an Envy with the updated 1080 screen, just an i5 though and I paid $1100 for it. (current rev) It would have been about $150 more for the i7.
The non-Apple world do have sales :)
If you go strict retail though, they do clock in more.. but sales and coupon sites definitely help
@Znuff The MBP is overpriced, but it's still damn good. :)
My original comment was just how I'd improve it.
I do wish the video card had more ram though. especially with Steam now on Mac.
@iDamien
Apples profit margins falsify your argument
@ultrantoday
Apple has the pickiest customer base. People have gotten a new machine for a dead pixel, a tiny scratch you can barely see, a power button that doesn't sit completely flush and generic LCD problems. They all add up to the cost.
@iDamien Good design 'ain't free either. You have to hire great designers and engineers with correspondingly big salaries. Then you have to pay them to design not only the products that we see in the stores, but also the 50 iterations leading up to them that we don't, plus the other 50 design ideas that never made the cut at all.
@iDamien In-house? MacBooks are made out of many of the same hardware components as Windows laptops.
That 'magical multi-touch trackpad' you speak of? It's a Synaptics touchpad. Their various touchpads have appeared in many Windows machines, for many many years.
The MacBook, MacBook Pro 13 inch (and somewhat the 15 incher) all represent good value when compared to Windows counterparts, in terms of overall power, build quality, battery life etc. The 17 incher.. not so much.
@iDamien
Dude Apple does NOT do their manufacturing or assembly in-house. Every Apple product is "Designed in Cupertino" but it is mass produced in sweatshops in China just like all the other computers (DELL still does some work out of Malaysia though). Apple does design higher quality hardware, but not enough to justify the cost (I have a MBP though). They just want a higher profit margin, and that is literally the bottom line.
To everyone else talking about "comparable specs"... sure you can find similar & better components in other lappys, but if you want to be legit you have run Windows of Linux... I have tried both and I can live with the inferior components of an Apple if I can have a strong and durable lappy, with a reliable OS that just works.
@kobioshi
amen.
Apple produces in-house.
Good one ;)
@Znuff
a bunch of Sony VAIO Z series have switchable graphics(two graphics card) AND backlit keyboard
Asus should be coming out with several laptops with Nvidia Optimus and similar specs including USB 3.0, don't know if they will have backlit keyboard though
@Znuff try taking a look at ASUS 15" laptops. they have either an NVIDIA 260M or a 360M graphics card, some have dual hard drive support, and one has 3D for under $1500
@peacecrafts
ALL VAIO Z series have switchable graphics. And they are 13 inch notebooks, with a 1GB VRAM 330M =)
@iDamien
By "in-house", you mean at Foxconn, in China?? Designing something and "making" it are 2 different things.
@Znuff VAIO Z.
@iDamien
You are living in a dream world, Apple design in house but they don't make all the parts, they used Intel chip set motherboards and now use Nvidia, all the keyboards they use are Foxxcon, same as the ones Sony VAIOs used first.
The metal cases look very nice but their design touches are starting to be a bit silly like that stickout SD card reader and those wonderful metal cases roast peoples legs now because of a badly designed cooling system.
They also use EFI instead of BIOS, not an Apple innovation either designed and built by Intel originally used in servers.
The magsafes also look lovely but my wife is now on her 3rd in 3 years which isn't very nice considering they cost three times as much as normal PC laptop's.
The only real custom part of a Mac is OS X which means you pay a hell of a lot more for OS X than anyone does for Windows.
Apple fans will swallow any old nonsense.
@RadiXe
Dell e6510. $700? Magnesium body panels?
Ok.
@Znuff
Sony thought of two graphics cards... in 2006... with the SZ series and continues to do it with the Z series. That was the first time that idea was ever executed. Then Apple was like "hey that's a great idea, lets take it and call it our own by renaming it something odd!"
@nicholasphan i would buy a sony vaio z cause the spec's and specially the ssd options.
1gb vram dd3 is not the same as 1gb gddr3 or gddr5. ddr3 are cheaper and lower perfomance than gddr3 o gddr5.
check out this article if wanna know how much memomry do you need in a laptop to play games
http://www.barefeats.com/mbpp22.html
@iDamien
Shi...t. Apple don't make anything in house. They are all made in China!
@Passa Are you high? Motherboard, completely custom, chassis completely custom. While Synaptics made that touchpad I assure you it ain't no off the shelf that they just hammered into a MBP chassis.
The Fit and Finish on Apple laptops is far superior to other manufacturers. HP and Dell can come close but the attention to detail just isn't the same with other laptops. I would love the apple hardware to be cheaper but I wouldn't trade my new MBP 15' for anything except a 17'.
And I was a 20 year Windows user until Apple started switching over to intel.
@Znuff Alienware m11x is your answer.
@iDamien Apple doesn't do everything in house, haven't you seen how the people who keep killing themselves at the Foxxcon plant are making Apple, Dell and other products. They are expensive because there hardware and software are made for each other and so they can. That's why you can't go buy an HP or Dell and run Snow Leopard on them and that why you don't buy Microsoft hardware when you buy Windows 7. Apple is a bigger monopoly than Microsoft. I'm probably still going to buy an iMac at some time though...
@ultrantoday I think another hardware refresh for the 13" - there's not much pro about it compared to the 15" in terms of the solicon inside.
Also i think prices need to be more inline with the rest of the maket.
HP Envy has windows. surly the point of running a mac is to jump aboard the snow leopard?
3G would be nice after all this is premium hardware.
and of course the ipod touch in the palm rest as a kind of secondary screen/interface.