Fragmentation's a red herring, eh, Google? We'd suggest you look at your own stats, where -- as of yesterday, anyway -- fragmentation was alive and well, no matter how you define it. In the two-week period of Google's data collection ending June 1, some 54.5 percent of devices in the field were still using pre-
Eclair versions of Android, a pretty sorry stat considering that it was released back in late 2009 and
xda-developers members have proven countless times that every Android phone ever made can run 2.0 and above with aplomb. To be fair, 2.1 picked up significant steam
since the last roundup and the trailing devices aren't entirely Google's fault -- manufacturers and carriers need to take most of the blame for the delays in getting upgrades pushed out -- but it's Google's wild development pace that has left this trail of premature obsolescence in its wake. Upgrades are good, but necessitating that your development community has its eyeballs on at least four versions of your platform (1.5, 1.6, 2.1, and 2.2) is generally bad.
posted June 2nd 2010 1:24PM
6 versions? You count 0.1% and 0.3%. As a developer I only see 3 and slowly more and more are going to 2.x.
@wakeup
To add to that, the iPhone has now two, with the gimped 4.0 on 3G vs 3GS and of course 4G.
@wakeup Fair enough -- I've reworded.
@wakeup Exactly, and isn't the real question how of the available apps use parts of the API which are exclusive to the later version?
@gopherr +many
@wakeup Exactly. Because three of those six versions make up less than five tenths of 1%. Insignificant to say the least.
If I have an iphone first generation but can not update it, IT IS FRAGMENTED using the same logic. Then iphone OS is fragmented, why it isnt everyday in the news?
@Beatnik Because the original iPhone was released in 2007.
@wakeup They still count as versions, although negating the marginal percentages will leave them with 4 soon. With regards to the iPhone OS does anyone know what the breakdown is? As it doesn't have to contend with hardware not supporting it (until 4.0 drops to the general public).
@wakeup
Thank you! People don't seem to get that this isn't fragmentation, it's obsolescence. And yes, that's because Google is moving faster than any developer in the history or OS's.
And to this point:
"that stat isn't entirely Google's fault -- manufacturers and carriers need to take most of the blame"
The problem is ENTIRELY at the feet of manufacturers and carriers.
They add shitty "features" to their phones (ie, lockdowns) that they have to rework if they want to move to the latest OS. If they ran stock android it wouldn't be a problem.
It's not as if Google is hiding the source for android in some secret vault, it's there for them to use, the discussion as far as bugs and development directions are public, and anyone who cares can easily catch up on what will and won't work in new versions. The carriers and mfgr's just don't care enough.
More than that though, it's money. Manufacturers and carriers don't make any money from giving already-contracted users free upgrades to their phones. I think this, more than anything, is exactly the problem.
Proof by example: The nexus one was upgradable to any version of Android on day one precisely because it runs stock android.
@Beatnik I have a first gen iPhone and it is up to date. Didn't have to wait for my carrier/handset maker to push the update either.
@Chris Ziegler Given the choice of a less feverish pace and have everyone on one version, versus Google developing at super-warp speed...i'll take the later. thanks.
@Beatnik It isn't fragmented yet. Soon but not yet.
@juanvaldez seriously, i would never tell a company to slow down the pace of innovation, seems... wrong
@Beatnik
because apple isn't still selling iPhone first-gens... In fact they stopped selling them 2 years ago... That's quite different from Android phones still being sold today that don't intend to make it past 1.6...
@Chris Ziegler
Wait a minute, Chris. Are you really complaining about development pace? I know that you're not the apple-fanboy you guys are often accused to be, but this smacks hard of a preference for that annual minor gifting party.
I'll admit I'm an Android customer enjoying the Droid Incredible, but I say develop away, Google. Get better, faster. I know that apple fans are used to waiting for old features, but Android fans generally prefer the fast and furious pace that's bringing more and more features.
The pressure needs to go on the manufacturers, although I see why they don't care. They've already sold their phones.
However, I do think the best answer is upgrades put on the Market by Google themselves in downloadable packets.
@Chris Ziegler You are writing nonsense!
What if Google did release fewer versions, like you suggest? Of course, then, even more phones would run old versions. It certainly wouldn't make customers happy if Google didn't innovate faster than its competitors.
Do you think carriers/manufacturers would bring 2.2 to phones faster if it was released in 2011 instead of now? Of course not. The earlier Google releases that version, the earlier it will be on phones, naturally.
And what if Google would skip versions and release fewer, but bigger, updates? What's the difference between that and carriers/manufacturers skipping versions? There is none, of course.
And by the way: Has fragmentation kept Windows from becoming the dominant OS on PCs? No. Why do you think Google is using the Dalvik VM, eh?
If you ensure compatibility, fragmentation is not an issue at all. In fact, it's the ONLY way to reach market dominance in a huge market like phones or PCs.
And rest assured Google is doing even more to ensure compatibility than Microsoft has done with Windows. Of course Microsoft had to take criticism for breaking some things from time to time. But that didn't stop them from reaching 95% market share. The fact that Google is working even harder on compatibility only shows that Android fragmentation is a non-issue.
For developers, it's in fact easier to support all the different Android phones and versions, than to make sure an application works on a new iPhone OS version. That's because Google cares about compatibility and making it as easy as possible for developers to support all OS versions and phones.
If you complain about Android fragmentation being bad for developers, you really should also complain about Apple not working hard enough on compatibility issues with new OS versions. It's especially bad because iPhone users usually want to upgrade immediately, which means you have little time to fix your app - unlike on Android, where the app simply doesn't appear for users of the new OS version until you've fixed it.
There are two things Android fragmentation is good for:
- it will allow Google to dominate the smartphone market, the same way it helped Microsoft own the PC market
- it gives journalists something to complain about, cause there's really not much else about Android to dislike
That's all.
@Xenoterranos It has nothing to do with stock Android or not, at least not right now. The Droid Eris got 2.1 a couple days earlier than the Samsung Moment, and the Droid Eris has Sense UI. The Nexus One gets updates on day 1 because that is phone is Google's baby. The Droid got 2.1 earlier than most phones presumably because it was the only one with good hardware besides the Nexus One.
@Chris Ziegler Despite it being around a year and a bit longer, it has still only had the same amount of upgrades as the G1.
@wakeup
and doesnt 'fragmentation' go hand in hand with 'choices'?
@speg You are absolutely correct. You have a phone that's being gimped by its manufacturer and not the carrier in question. Congrats.
@Xenoterranos
I'd say Google do have to take some of the blame here. The reason manufacturers/carriers went to the effort of customising the core Android code is that it didn't let them do what they wanted to do by any other means.
For example, HTC realised that users wanted to see latest calendar events, text messages etc on the lock screen. Android doesn't let you do this via their public APIs so HTC had to dive down deeper to make these changes. If Google had pre-empted this, or at least asked their partners why they had to make core changes they could have implemented hooks into the APIs so that such applications could simply be installed on top of the core Android system, making core upgrades MUCH easier for the manufacturers and carriers.
I think these issues will sort themselves out over time, but Google MUST make changes to Android to allow people to do this extra stuff without them having to get down and dirty.
@wakeup
Good point. I feel like Android didn't really take off until 2.0. It'll be interesting to see what happens when 2.2 comes out and what that adoption rate looks like, since that is clearly the Android version to get.
@jellotime91
But it is the same exact thing, except with a multi-year time scale except with a half year time scale (same with the 3G not supporting multitasking). So the problem isn't that it is happening, it is just it is happening quicker than people typically buy new phones.
This is the reason why Rubin said the way to address it is just to slow down the pace of development. And if it happens to Apple, which has full control of their hardware and update cycle, then I don't see how people can reasonably except Android to completely eliminate it.
@maati well said, it looks like game over for Mr. Ziegler.
@wakeup
Did people actually read what google had to say in their response? There will always be devices that are left behind, if it is because the hardware is not capable or the device manufacturer are being lazy does not matter. If you are writing a application that does not use any of the new functions of 2.x then you can develop for 1.5 or 1.6 and ALL FUTURE VERSIONS OF ANDROID WILL BE ABLE TO RUN THAT APPLICATION. Android is moving FORWARD not SIDEWAYS(Fragmentation)...
@Beatnik
Why?
All iphone updates until now are incremental bumps , there arent 200 screen sizes , other buttons , or alot of cameras from different manufractures
Also all the updates are available when theyre realeased , you dont have to wait half a year to get it , devs can write an app that runs on everything (well except if it needs iphone specific hardware like the camera)
@d0mth0ma5 Soon it is to be defragmented when after Froyo they go to their once a year release cycle. Then it will be just like any other OS.
@wakeup 1.5 and 1.6 are mostly on crapgadgets like the Eken. Nobody expects to install new apps on these devices. This isn't fragmentation, its more like a static fork for really low end devices. Its not an issue.
@wakeup
You might as well include OS3.x on iPod, iPod touch in the mix with gen-2 3Gs, which then make it look as fragmented.
@wakeup
I hear the fanboiis crying.
@magadget iPhone has 1 version 4.0 that has an almost identical but not exactly the same feature-set on all platforms.
Android is 50000000 X 1 million times more fragmented.
@wakeup yeah, and no one develops for 1.5 anymore
@Beatnik Cuz it's not a big issue. Ppl can upgrade for those who bought a phone 2007-2008 or even 2009. iPhone fragmentation is nowhere near as bad as android by a very long shot.
@maati Amen
@cloud858rk Sprint still have a bunch of carrier bloat that would need to be hammered out for any version of Android regardless of if it was vanilla Google or not. Notice how the Moment and the Hero were both updated within a few weeks of each other. If Sense UI was the hold up the Moment would have been updated long before the Hero. Its the carriers "Value Added Features" as much as it is manufacturers skinning that causing the delays.
@wakeup
All of you, look at it this way: if you bought a phone that wasn't upgradable, its not like it became worse when 2.2 came out... My old LG Dare NEVER got upgraded
@tkuhl87 Bullshit. 1.5 & 1.6 make up over half the install base. Unless you're dependent on features introduced in 2.0+, you'd be a fool to not support them.
@speg completely up to date with video recording and MMS?
@Xenoterranos
Good post Xenoterranos
Does it seem as if Chris Ziegler is the only person talking about this? Chris, PLEASE. GET OVER IT.
@wakeup the solution to all you whinny fragmenters is simple:
buy a Nexus One.
It did not get Froyo earlier because it is Google's puppy or because HTC is badass, it got Froyo early because it is THE developers' phone so it needs to have the next version of Android before everybody else.
Sure it is expensive, but why do you think google wanted it on EVERY carrier?
they're doing better now, 2.1 is double 1.5 and 1.6 (maybe because of tablets 1.6 is high) Google are probably looking to put pressure on developers to at least make it to 2.1
progress looks ok for now, Ginger might flood things deeper?
@Zylam
It's not tablets, it's the fact that there are a ton of unupdated older Android phones.
@Zylam 1.5 and 1.6 are fairly similar. And combined, handsets running 1.5 and 1.6 are over half the market.
@Zylam
Honestly, pre-2.0 felt kinda like beta to me, 2.0 felt like the real release candidate.
And I got a Droid last week over the incredible for two reasons: qwerty, but also largely because Droid is running mostly stock Android. I just don't want all that SenseUI and crap, just give me Android and let me customize it myself. And if Moto doesn't get 2.2 out by the end of the summer, I'll be rooting. I'm not waiting around for the manufacturers to "allow" me to upgrade my OS.
It would be cool to see stats on how many are rooted.
I'm not very informed on this stuff but to make a fair comparison, don't you have to compare that with the market penetrations of the various generations of other OS's?
What's current market penetration of different generations of iPhone OS?
Where is 2.2? and I agree with "wakeup" there are only truly 3 on this graph.
@rstoplabe14 2.2 still hasn't been officially released in any capacity.
having 3 OS' is not the fragmentation that everyone would want you to believe it is... still fragmented but not to the point where Android would crash in around itself