@grumbles The problem with those OLED's assuming that it is the same as the Nexus One is that they only contain two colors per pixel, green and either red or blue. So the DPI is actually lower than 250, not that it doesn't look good but it's really an odd setup.
Funny, no one was bothering to talk much about PPI until recently. I guess we were perfectly okay with an average of 80-100PPI displays on almost every one of our devices until just recently.
Now, all of a sudden, 220, or 250 isn't enough. We must have 300.
Which, by the way, is about 150 less than displays used specifically for things like medical imaging. You see, in your pocket, you need 300PPI for farmville and fart apps, but doctors only need 150 to determine when and where to slice into your brain.
@reallynotnick AMOLED Has that problem, not OLED. Sammy said they won't able to have same resolution, but Super AMOLED has better contrast and better viewing angles*. There is difference between AMOLED and OLED, I have HTC Desire and Zune HD and I can the difference quite clearly. OLED much better...
@reallynotnick No, the PPI is still the same, but the SPPI (sub-pixels per inch) is smaller. That's a completely different story, because to the human eye it looks exactly the same, except brighter and it has a longer life span.
I don't have Apple, I owned an iPhone for over two years. I understand why Jobs has to say that the display on the iPhone 4 is the best, but I still dislike the fact that he is essentially being dishonest to his customers and to himself when he states that LCD tech is better than OLED. It isn't. LCD has peaked, and then some, whereas OLED is already showing the potential for amazing contrast, brightness (in Super AMOLED), viewing angles, response time, and power usage, only in it's first few years of production.
Think about how long LCD has been around, how terrible it used to be, how many improvements it has seen, and then consider the potential of a technology that, only in it's infancy, has almost surpassed it in just about every way.
My Droid Inc has the sharpest display I've ever seen with my own two eyes. Probably has something to do with the pixel density, I'm sure. Fuzzy it isn't.
The thing about AMOLED and OLED displays is it can produce colors that an LCD never could. Even on the Froyo contact page on the Nexus one, the Neon color icons when seen in the dark could NEVER look like that on a normal LCD.
And THAT is contrast ratio. Really, thats whats making things look so damn good now in days. DPI is a bit overrated at this point. The Nexus One stepped it up a bit, but really, thats all we needed. Anymore is just for a few kicks. For god sakes, we still use 1080P on our HUGE TV's and it looks clear.
The camera manufacturers actually mean subpixels in their pixel count, so you are actually looking at about 300.000 pixels (too lazy to do the rest of the math)
@Dking7 "There is difference between AMOLED and OLED, I have HTC Desire and Zune HD and I can the difference quite clearly. OLED much better..."
Totally wrong. AMOLED stands for Active Matrix OLED, which every current OLED display is. The alternative is Passive Matrix OLED, which doesn't really work (really bad lifetimes) and isn't used anywhere, so in practice "OLED" and "AMOLED" are interchangable.
The only difference between the Zune and Desire is the crazy pixel layout.
PPI is what you talk about when your screen is so small you can't see any detail. That's what this all boils down to. This is their way of putting a positive spin on the fact that shrinking an HDTV down to handheld size might not be terribly useful in practice.
@Dking7 oled and amoled are the same technology the only difference is that amoled uses multiple driver chips within the display frame to control the display instead of one chip away from the display (like on the cellphones logic board). it has nothing to do with the colors or the pixel density itself or even with how the display creates the image.
@grumbles But that's not what Steve said, is it? He didn't claim LCD>OLED; he said that the particular display used in the iPhone 4 (Retina Display) is better than the OLED screens that are out there currently. Which is accurate.
I mean, really. Are you suggesting Jobs is like an LCD evangelist? If/when OLED can deliver clearly superior displays for the iPhone, Apple will use it. Period. Simple.
I think PPI is much more important on small displays (like a phone) than it is for larger displays (like a desktop monitor or TV). I'm stoked that my phone will be getting a higher resolution display. Someday when they have 477 PPI displays, I will be happy then too.
@grumbles I can't see pixels on my Incredible either. While my vision isn't perfect, it is damn near perfect with my contacts in, which happens to be the case right now.
Uhhhh... He said IPS is better than OLED because he's trying to sell PHONES, not because it was true or not. Just like he said 'Face Time' was the first time that you could do WiFi video chats with a handset... Of course, my 2007 Nokia N800 would beg to differ.
@grumbles: I'm with grumbles... these numbers and being able to differentiate are dependent on holding the display a foot away from your face, and I rarely hold my phone 1 ft or closer (usually closer to 1.5 ft).
Of course, a 4.3 inch 800x480 screen is also a better aspect ratio for ebooks, ecomics and 16:9 content as well, but if Apple had the same 960x640 resolution but on a physically larger display, it would more or less make the iPad pointless to some.
@bolezhinkov a key thing to note is that this guy says 'in his opinion'. He hasn't done a study, he has no facts. You can probably say the same about the guy from Discover but at least he has outside experience that might give him some kind of a clue.
"Funny, no one was bothering to talk much about PPI until recently. I guess we were perfectly okay with an average of 80-100PPI displays on almost every one of our devices until just recently."
Oh, you mean kind of like how everybody was fine with good LED backlit IPS panels until we found out that the iPad had one, and then suddenly LCD panels make your eyes bleed, they make you go blind, etc. etc. etc. Kind of like that?
The difference here is that 326 PPI is significantly better than any other phone out there, and it shows when you look at it.
@corylulu Does it matter if the color looks really good if it's not accurate?
Also the key to the display is the IPS that is the difference maker. I so want a Dell 28" IPS LCD... IPS makes LCD's look so good... To bad they draw more power...
@grumbles So everyone complains about specs of Apples phone and the quality of their screens in light of these new fangled devices that are out now but when Apple does upgrade, specs all of a sudden don't matter? Tech geeks need to make up their mind... they either want a high resolution screen or they don't... this biased wishy washy stuff has got to go, it's pretty annoying. This is coming from a person who owns(ed) 3 android devices.
@grumbles Perfect response! For the screen size I got on my hero, its quality its more than enough, for anything I use it.... Now, everyone is gonna start pushing the resolution and quality on screen, is ther really a point, when most cellphone screens wont go more than "4? Shit id love to have a Bravia screen on my cellphone, pushing 1080p!!!!! but would you really apreciate it? would it make sense to go crazy with this resolutions? Also as like you said it, for Farmvile? Will pixeljunk lose its edge? =( Dont get me wrong the screen is gorgeous, but not a deal breaker for me.
Everyone was fine with IPS panels? You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?
IPS panels haven't ever been "fine". They've merely been "okay", a band-aid on top of a broken tech that, like any other band-aid for LCD tech, has it's ups and downs.
You haven't heard about the poor panel uniformity (u2410, 2209WA, ea231mi), poor contrast (ZR24W, which I'm typing this on), severe off-angle glow (ZR24W), high power usage, aggressive AG coatings, or semi-poor response time up until, what, a year ago? These are all problems that exist on IPS panel LCD's *Today*. Not years in the past, today, on displays being sold right now.
For most people that buy them, they're merely acceptable. They aren't the holy grail of display tech, they're just better than the race-to-the-bottom crap TN panels that every other manufacturer has been churning out, and they *all* have to be hardware-calibrated for spot-on color accuracy.
Go read the [H]ardforums display section, and check threads for any of the IPS displays being sold. You'll find just as much complaining about quality issues inherent to LCD tech as you will praise.
@grumbles Potential doesn't equal actual... OLED has the potential yes but can I hold that potential in my hands now? NO... What I can hold in my hands now are devices that still have the AMOLED problems that Job's is stating makes IPS LCD better which isn't lying... He didn't say IPS technology was better, he said IPS technology is better than the OLED technology we currently had. That is completely different and completely accurate. Why do people hate Apple so much that they are willing to grasp at any straws or hairs they can to make them feel justified? Dislikes products all you want, it's your right as a consumer to do so, but don't dislike something to the point that facts don't matter... Then you just become a biased moron.
@cardfan I dunno.. The pixel density on my Nexus One looks pretty damn good, I have good eyesight and I have to look hard to start picking out pixels. Casually using it I everything looks very crisp.
As my hobby is computer gaming i can say PPI are more important to bigger displays rather in smaller ones. I have an SE X1 with 312 PPI and 22 inch monitor with 90 PPI. I can see on both the the pixel if i start to look closely. The advantage of high density of pixel in a display is that eliminate the need of anti-aliasing. So the higher the resolution the less AA you need. This is great for gaming. Another nice of high pixel density is that on my X1 even the SD videos look like HD ofc if i look close i see again pixels. The idea of PPI is the higher the density the more real-life they look. However i agree with grumbles and i have to say that although IPS is very good tech it comes nowhere as good with a equivalent good OLED tech. Having on a small screen high PPI is nice but not important. I would prefer a 24 inch monitor or a 40 inch TV with 300-400 PPI and even more.But whom i kidding still there aren't
@chaddledee Pentile screens do not look exactly the same. Comparing my HTC Desire to a Blackberry Curve with a very similar pixel density, there is a huge difference. On my phone I can clearly see individual pixels, and straight lines look jagged with an odd purple halo effect around them. The curve screen doesn't look like this, in fact it is very hard to distinguish pixels without trying to see them, whereas on my Desire I can clearly see it in normal operation, with my phone fairly far away from my face. This is the problem with pentile screens.
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I can't see pixels on my 250ppi Incredible display. Good for Apple, though, or something.
@grumbles
Get an eye exam?
@grumbles
The problem with those OLED's assuming that it is the same as the Nexus One is that they only contain two colors per pixel, green and either red or blue. So the DPI is actually lower than 250, not that it doesn't look good but it's really an odd setup.
http://blog.javia.org/nexus-one-display-and-subpixel-pattern/
@cardfan
Funny, no one was bothering to talk much about PPI until recently. I guess we were perfectly okay with an average of 80-100PPI displays on almost every one of our devices until just recently.
Now, all of a sudden, 220, or 250 isn't enough. We must have 300.
Which, by the way, is about 150 less than displays used specifically for things like medical imaging. You see, in your pocket, you need 300PPI for farmville and fart apps, but doctors only need 150 to determine when and where to slice into your brain.
@grumbles
Haha! good one. we really see what's truely important here...
@reallynotnick AMOLED Has that problem, not OLED. Sammy said they won't able to have same resolution, but Super AMOLED has better contrast and better viewing angles*. There is difference between AMOLED and OLED, I have HTC Desire and Zune HD and I can the difference quite clearly. OLED much better...
*sammy said that
@grumbles
I like nice displays and clear pictures. that means I like accuracy. saying 300 pixels per inch is the limit just is not accurate.
@reallynotnick No, the PPI is still the same, but the SPPI (sub-pixels per inch) is smaller. That's a completely different story, because to the human eye it looks exactly the same, except brighter and it has a longer life span.
@grumbles there is too much hatred for apple in your eyes, fanboy. wonder you can see anything!
@grumbles
Kind of like, Even humanoid on the planet won't buy a mac.. infact only about 8 % will.
@grumbles
dpi or ppi???
http://www.tildefrugal.net/photo/dpi.php
@grumbles Hey, creating Mario Bros. pixel art out of hay bales requires all the PPI you can get.
@memeslayer
I don't have Apple, I owned an iPhone for over two years. I understand why Jobs has to say that the display on the iPhone 4 is the best, but I still dislike the fact that he is essentially being dishonest to his customers and to himself when he states that LCD tech is better than OLED. It isn't. LCD has peaked, and then some, whereas OLED is already showing the potential for amazing contrast, brightness (in Super AMOLED), viewing angles, response time, and power usage, only in it's first few years of production.
Think about how long LCD has been around, how terrible it used to be, how many improvements it has seen, and then consider the potential of a technology that, only in it's infancy, has almost surpassed it in just about every way.
@grumbles
How about Sony's 'NEX-5' camara-display with 920,000 pixels at a 3" screen got about 490dpi !!
True Retina Display anyone?
@grumbles
If you don't mind reading fuzzy text, then i see your point. I've been wanting this for awhile now...someone to pack those pixels in.
You'll see the difference on the 24th...
@grumbles
If you hold the iPhone 4 close enough you can see pixels, regardless of what mr. Job said. I've seen it with my own eyes.
@cardfan
My Droid Inc has the sharpest display I've ever seen with my own two eyes. Probably has something to do with the pixel density, I'm sure. Fuzzy it isn't.
@grumbles
My Toshiba Portege G900 have 310dpi (3' with 800*480 resolution) and i can see the pixels.
@grumbles
The thing about AMOLED and OLED displays is it can produce colors that an LCD never could. Even on the Froyo contact page on the Nexus one, the Neon color icons when seen in the dark could NEVER look like that on a normal LCD.
And THAT is contrast ratio. Really, thats whats making things look so damn good now in days. DPI is a bit overrated at this point. The Nexus One stepped it up a bit, but really, thats all we needed. Anymore is just for a few kicks. For god sakes, we still use 1080P on our HUGE TV's and it looks clear.
@grumbles Yeah, because a Dr. would definitely choose a lower resolution device if he had the choice...
@Element115
The camera manufacturers actually mean subpixels in their pixel count, so you are actually looking at about 300.000 pixels (too lazy to do the rest of the math)
@Dking7 "There is difference between AMOLED and OLED, I have HTC Desire and Zune HD and I can the difference quite clearly. OLED much better..."
Totally wrong. AMOLED stands for Active Matrix OLED, which every current OLED display is. The alternative is Passive Matrix OLED, which doesn't really work (really bad lifetimes) and isn't used anywhere, so in practice "OLED" and "AMOLED" are interchangable.
The only difference between the Zune and Desire is the crazy pixel layout.
@html5FLOP actually its 5%
@grumbles
PPI is what you talk about when your screen is so small you can't see any detail. That's what this all boils down to. This is their way of putting a positive spin on the fact that shrinking an HDTV down to handheld size might not be terribly useful in practice.
@Dking7
oled and amoled are the same technology the only difference is that amoled uses multiple driver chips within the display frame to control the display instead of one chip away from the display (like on the cellphones logic board). it has nothing to do with the colors or the pixel density itself or even with how the display creates the image.
@grumbles But that's not what Steve said, is it? He didn't claim LCD>OLED; he said that the particular display used in the iPhone 4 (Retina Display) is better than the OLED screens that are out there currently. Which is accurate.
I mean, really. Are you suggesting Jobs is like an LCD evangelist? If/when OLED can deliver clearly superior displays for the iPhone, Apple will use it. Period. Simple.
@grumbles
I think PPI is much more important on small displays (like a phone) than it is for larger displays (like a desktop monitor or TV). I'm stoked that my phone will be getting a higher resolution display. Someday when they have 477 PPI displays, I will be happy then too.
@grumbles
I can't see pixels on my Incredible either. While my vision isn't perfect, it is damn near perfect with my contacts in, which happens to be the case right now.
@grumbles
Medgadget also did a post about this recently: http://www.medgadget.com/archives/2010/06/apples_retina_display_what_does_it_mean.html
They concluded that the retina display's pixels are not smaller than what a person with 20/20 vision can discern at 12 inches away.
@RawheaD
Uhhhh... He said IPS is better than OLED because he's trying to sell PHONES, not because it was true or not. Just like he said 'Face Time' was the first time that you could do WiFi video chats with a handset... Of course, my 2007 Nokia N800 would beg to differ.
@grumbles: I'm with grumbles... these numbers and being able to differentiate are dependent on holding the display a foot away from your face, and I rarely hold my phone 1 ft or closer (usually closer to 1.5 ft).
Of course, a 4.3 inch 800x480 screen is also a better aspect ratio for ebooks, ecomics and 16:9 content as well, but if Apple had the same 960x640 resolution but on a physically larger display, it would more or less make the iPad pointless to some.
@grumbles Which is why in Japan they are using iPads when they operate. LOL!
http://www.japanprobe.com/2010/06/02/ipad-used-during-surgery-in-japan/
@bolezhinkov a key thing to note is that this guy says 'in his opinion'. He hasn't done a study, he has no facts.
You can probably say the same about the guy from Discover but at least he has outside experience that might give him some kind of a clue.
@grumbles
How about
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/9397/stevehogs.jpg
@grumbles
"Funny, no one was bothering to talk much about PPI until recently. I guess we were perfectly okay with an average of 80-100PPI displays on almost every one of our devices until just recently."
Oh, you mean kind of like how everybody was fine with good LED backlit IPS panels until we found out that the iPad had one, and then suddenly LCD panels make your eyes bleed, they make you go blind, etc. etc. etc. Kind of like that?
The difference here is that 326 PPI is significantly better than any other phone out there, and it shows when you look at it.
@corylulu Does it matter if the color looks really good if it's not accurate?
Also the key to the display is the IPS that is the difference maker. I so want a Dell 28" IPS LCD... IPS makes LCD's look so good... To bad they draw more power...
@grumbles So everyone complains about specs of Apples phone and the quality of their screens in light of these new fangled devices that are out now but when Apple does upgrade, specs all of a sudden don't matter? Tech geeks need to make up their mind... they either want a high resolution screen or they don't... this biased wishy washy stuff has got to go, it's pretty annoying. This is coming from a person who owns(ed) 3 android devices.
@grumbles
Perfect response!
For the screen size I got on my hero, its quality its more than enough, for anything I use it....
Now, everyone is gonna start pushing the resolution and quality on screen, is ther really a point, when most cellphone screens wont go more than "4?
Shit id love to have a Bravia screen on my cellphone, pushing 1080p!!!!! but would you really apreciate it? would it make sense to go crazy with this resolutions?
Also as like you said it, for Farmvile? Will pixeljunk lose its edge? =(
Dont get me wrong the screen is gorgeous, but not a deal breaker for me.
@Jack
Everyone was fine with IPS panels? You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?
IPS panels haven't ever been "fine". They've merely been "okay", a band-aid on top of a broken tech that, like any other band-aid for LCD tech, has it's ups and downs.
You haven't heard about the poor panel uniformity (u2410, 2209WA, ea231mi), poor contrast (ZR24W, which I'm typing this on), severe off-angle glow (ZR24W), high power usage, aggressive AG coatings, or semi-poor response time up until, what, a year ago? These are all problems that exist on IPS panel LCD's *Today*. Not years in the past, today, on displays being sold right now.
For most people that buy them, they're merely acceptable. They aren't the holy grail of display tech, they're just better than the race-to-the-bottom crap TN panels that every other manufacturer has been churning out, and they *all* have to be hardware-calibrated for spot-on color accuracy.
Go read the [H]ardforums display section, and check threads for any of the IPS displays being sold. You'll find just as much complaining about quality issues inherent to LCD tech as you will praise.
@grumbles Potential doesn't equal actual... OLED has the potential yes but can I hold that potential in my hands now? NO... What I can hold in my hands now are devices that still have the AMOLED problems that Job's is stating makes IPS LCD better which isn't lying... He didn't say IPS technology was better, he said IPS technology is better than the OLED technology we currently had. That is completely different and completely accurate. Why do people hate Apple so much that they are willing to grasp at any straws or hairs they can to make them feel justified? Dislikes products all you want, it's your right as a consumer to do so, but don't dislike something to the point that facts don't matter... Then you just become a biased moron.
@grumbles There are pixels?
@mrt2
You can't hold it in your hands because Samsung can't manufacturer it, or at least not for Apple, not because it doesn't exist.
You want it in your hands? Buy a Galaxy S.
@Timmmmmm Thank you, was about to post something similar, but with lies and rampant speculation attached. :-)
@cardfan
I dunno.. The pixel density on my Nexus One looks pretty damn good, I have good eyesight and I have to look hard to start picking out pixels. Casually using it I everything looks very crisp.
@grumbles
As my hobby is computer gaming i can say PPI are more important to bigger displays rather in smaller ones. I have an SE X1 with 312 PPI and 22 inch monitor with 90 PPI. I can see on both the the pixel if i start to look closely. The advantage of high density of pixel in a display is that eliminate the need of anti-aliasing. So the higher the resolution the less AA you need. This is great for gaming. Another nice of high pixel density is that on my X1 even the SD videos look like HD ofc if i look close i see again pixels. The idea of PPI is the higher the density the more real-life they look. However i agree with grumbles and i have to say that although IPS is very good tech it comes nowhere as good with a equivalent good OLED tech. Having on a small screen high PPI is nice but not important. I would prefer a 24 inch monitor or a 40 inch TV with 300-400 PPI and even more.But whom i kidding still there aren't
@Dking7
I know OMLED and OLED do not have issues with Polarized sunglasses like LCD may. I wonder if the Iphone's display has any issues with these glasses?
@chaddledee Pentile screens do not look exactly the same. Comparing my HTC Desire to a Blackberry Curve with a very similar pixel density, there is a huge difference. On my phone I can clearly see individual pixels, and straight lines look jagged with an odd purple halo effect around them. The curve screen doesn't look like this, in fact it is very hard to distinguish pixels without trying to see them, whereas on my Desire I can clearly see it in normal operation, with my phone fairly far away from my face. This is the problem with pentile screens.
@Sor1
...still there aren't
@grumbles Typical Android fanboy, If you had you're facts strait, you realize that not many people download fart or farmville apps.
@Mikeserena
Yeah Farmville is pretty niche.