@Leindurstit I don't get the constant nokia bashing. Was a regular Sony Ericsson user for 4,5 years. then switched to nokia, my 5530 XM touch screen is pretty solid and has good enough features. I have used the iPhone 2nd hand, and i think its pretty close to it in terms of features and use.
Nokia might've been less innovative but its not all that bad. Al though i'd want to try out the new fruite phones
I think Nokia still doesn't get it. In two years time only a couple of OS will be standing, just like in desktop space. Jobs missed the ball back then when all the developers went with Microsoft. We had attempts from sun, IBM, Linux community, but still only 2 OS have mentionable market share in desktop space as of now.
Now with mobiles, Jobs has learnt from his mistake and going after developers & marketing the app store big time. Lucky for Google, when they entered, win mobile was stagnant, Nokia/symbian was asleep. Android also got decent developers support. Just look at what happened to palm. You don't attract developers, you're toast, no matter how ridiculously good your OS is. Very soon developers will hit a saturation point. No more than 2 (iOS & Android) or at the max 3 (win mobile 7, depending entirely on Microsoft) will be supported.
When Nokia couldn't keep developers from going to other platforms even with having >50% marketshare with symbian, I don't think they can stop that with meego, where they are literally starting from scratch.
Nokia, an honest suggestion to you. Your competition is Motorola, Samsung, and HTC, and NOT Google or Apple (you dont have a passionate fanbase or atleast of the same degree). If you want to beat your competition, there is no other choice. You have to give a call to mountainview
@Leindurstit I adore my E71, but Nokia has disappointed me in the last couple of years, especially with regard to its software. Moving on up to Android now..
Your theory would be fine if Nokia weren't maintaining a near 40% share in smartphones despite having no presence in the US, which is the fastest growing market.
It's a sad day indeed. The once powerful nokia is falling. The saddest fact of all is that they had the lead concerning 'smart' OSs with symbian and early maemo. However, rather than cultivating an already thriving platform or exercising vision, they've since gone back to the drawing board more than 4 times developing OS variants (the various maemo projects, and now MeeGo)! It's no wonder they haven't gained any traction as they're starting from scratch repeatedly (and alienating developers), rather than building on something that works.
I don't see MeeGo going anywhere of importance, as trying to convince developers to use QT, given nokia's platform history will likely be an uphill battle. What does MeeGo offer that Android doesn't?
As an outsider, I would guess that Nokia should to release an android device and look for ways to differentiate itself from other players in this space, or contributing to the source.
@GreenLeaf Palm OS supported developers to the best of their ability. Palm was just tiny compared to Apple and Google. That and the pixi being very underpowered.
The truth is, NO ONE does low to mid-end handsets like Nokia.When Microsoft came up with the Kin whatevers, some here suggested Nokia would finally lose that dominance. HA!
The upcoming strategy of pushing Symbian to low and mid end will only solidify Nokia's trade. They're just too good value, buck for buck. An 80 pound Nokia touchscreen SMARTphone offers free offline satnav, true multitasking, web browser with flash, file downloading, BT file sharing, and so much more all out of the box.
I think some people are getting a bit overly dramatic here.
If we step outside for a moment, we can see that 90% of the people don't give a rats ass about what OS is running on their phone. We Engadget readers are a niche in the market.
So Nokia still has 90% of the population to sell phones to, with whatever OS they want.
What I'm trying to say is that Nokia is far from extinct.
But I'm not trying to defend them, either. In fact -from a user's perspective- I'm very critical of both Nokia and the Symbian OS.
In a way it's at least partially true. Nokia haven't released a decent high end consumer smartphone since the N95. Sure, the N86 is pretty good but it's a throwback. The N96 and the N97 were just horrible.
But here's the thing. This guy is whining about the N97. A phone that is a year old. He's not even tried the N8 prototypes as far as I can see and he's thrown a hissy fit. This guy is supposed to be a guru and he's had no meaningful exposure to S^3? Please.
And worse, the gadget sites are blowing this up as if it's a big thing. In fairness Engadget haven't been as stupid as, say, T3 who claim he's Symbian's most important supporter when obviously that's AAS and Symbian Freak. This guy is minor league, small potatoes who doesn't even merit an invite to the N8's pre releases.
Yeah. You're leaving. No-one cares.
Which doesn't mean that Nokia haven't wallowed in a mess of their own making for three years because they have as far as the high end goes. The only redeeming factor is the total dominance of the emerging low to middle tier market (good luck breaking into that one Android cos you're going to need it).
Will the N8 change things? Maybe a bit. Not in the US obviously - that's iPhone/Android country - but perhaps in the US and Asia where it could stop the rot. Me, I'm a bit of a Nokia fan so I'm actually going to give the N8 a go because that seems the right thing to do. If it sucks then I'll look elsewhere. What I won't do is post a long rant on the internet about a year old phone when I didn't have the patience to even try the new version of Symbian and look like a whiny little bitch as a result.
I'm somewhat surprised at the timing of this. Did it really take this long to sink in that the N97 was not what it should've been. That's ancient history and now, as the new Symbian 3 phones are almost here and Qt is going to consolidate app development on Nokia's all platforms, they decide to call it quits.
The claims they make about N8 (not enough memory, not enough power) are questionable (new OS, WDP, GPU). I guess they got tired of getting ignored by Nokia. It hurts if you set up a fansite in high hopes and still have to buy your own phones.
Well, as the saying goes, Nokia will be crying all the way to the bank. I'm just surprised that this got a post, kind of makes me question Nilay Patels motives. I'm sure there has been more than one little known blog from each and every phone-maker that have shut down, yet I've never seen a post about it. Now when one minor Nokia blog shuts down, not only does it get a post, but also gets a nice write-up of the reasons why the bloggers thinks Nokia sucks.
As for the blog itself, my do they sound disgruntled. Such harsh reactions after a couple of bad touch-screen devices, while the rest of the line-up remains as solid as ever. Maybe someone at Nokia pissed them off.
@GreenLeaf i am not going to write off Nokia that easy. The one thing Nokia needs right now is a good marketing division! They have all the features that other phones have and then some. Yet they don't know how to market it to people.
We tech fans know of the N8's features: the great sensor size, USB OTG, HDMI out, etc. But can Nokia get this message through to people that will finally be buying this phone? and can they do it in a way that will make them want the phone?
A monotonous product manager isn't the answer when you want to present the features to a wider audience. Just listing them one by one isn't the answer either. A geek will see "HDMI out", "USB OTG", "Qt apps" and say, "wow now this is something good". Does nokia expect an average buyer to understand any of it?
I hate Apple for all the hyped up marketing, but Nokia will do well to take a leaf out of Jobs's keynotes and see how to present features to the consumer.
P.S. They got that share selling a range of free phones and premiums phones - the N95 cost £150 with contract on release in 2007 - so you're wrong anyway.
@Leindurstit Engadget just loves this right? They are trumpeting this as the next big thing... I can imagine a bunch of iGeeks all huddled together machinating what bad they will say about Nokia next.
And it could have not come in a better time since Apple F-up iPhone 4. A small distraction.
It is true Nokia messed up BIG TIME with the N97. But it is also true that Nokia stated that, released multiple firmware updates and finally created something usable out of that thing. Some companies, yes Google and Apple, dont even do this. Google stopped trying to fix the reception issues Nexus One has and Apple, what a joke, the CEO of the company is telling the users to handle the phone in a different way. Plus all the other problems associated by it.
But finally we come to the only valid point of the ranting of some bloggers, yeah, bloggers in a pejorative way because in the end thats what you all are. Nokia need developers. They have gained some traction with the latest devices,N900/N8, acquiring Trolltech and cuddling with Intel. Is it enough? No. But it is a start.
Someone mentioned Palm. Nokia is not a Palm. First of all, Nokia has far more patents, second Nokia is (still) sitting on a huge pile of cash, third besides patents Nokia has other assets in case sh1t hits the fan.
What I find odd is a site that should be reporting news, I get it you are just bloggers, can be cheering so much for Nokia's demise. What has Nokia done to Engadget? Do the phones suck? Do you hate europeans? I know that you guys compared S60 to syphilis and so on. But what is the deal with that?
If Nokia is stupid is in one thing is actually driving traffic for this site. If I would be involved with PR, first thing I would do is totally isolate you guys. Second I would actually take the next step and ridiculle you, just how Nokia did with Eldar and Apple with Gizmodo. You guys are untouched. For now.
In the end I think that Nokia has a better chance to stiring the boat around than Palm/Motorola, it is even stupid the comparison. Nokia will stay here, doing handsets, laptops or whatever it still does.
Cant say the same about the bloggers of this site.
yep... do you think Google gives away phones at its I/O for free just for fun. It's because they understand the game. Just watch how aggressive Balmer will be with win mobile 7, afterall we are talking about DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS!
@stewie325 True - all those things come with their mid-range phones on s60. It's still slightly less difficult to lobotomize yourself through your left nostril with a shrimp fork than use them all effectively though.
I'm caught between gigs and gigs of 15 dollar ATT data on a capable but obtuse $250 s60 phone vs. 10 dollars a month more for a potentially capable Aria that Engadget Chris recommended not to buy. My brain hurts. Must be that failed lobotomy attempt.
@Discourse No, they read :) They pretend that we dont exist but they do read...
When us trolls, I mean, reader started to "get out of control" and rightfully ,if I may say, "accusing" Engadget of being the Fox News if the tech blogs and having a hidden agenda,ouch this comment will be deleted like the other ones I said the same thing, against Nokia. Engadget "editors" quickly realized they needed to calm us down, ala China.
And again, if they would have any credibility in what they report and base it with facts they would not delete our comments (unless of course we would curse/threat/perjury/etc).
And Nilay almost could not contain his excitement in telling everyone to visit symbian-guru website. This behavior border the ridiculous.
Nokia can definitely use some marketing. When you have a generation of people growing up and they see a Nokia device and think it's a knock-off product, there's a problem.....
But MeeGo.....
MeeGo can be a "freakin-epic-huge" game changer for Nokia. They just need to get the freakin' word out and get the devices rollin'! MeeGo is hot, the general masses don't know it exists, I'm sure of that.
Nokia did hand out a bunch of N900's to developers at a few conferences.
What Nokia really failed with was not as much the N97, but rather the transition from Maemo to MeeGo. Some say MeeGo is a step forward. i say the body stepped forward while the head and a few vital organs were teleported a meter sideways.
MeeGo abandons N900 barely a year after the phones release, it switched to a completely new API and base layer that is being developed behind closed doors, they abandoned the Debian+Apt-Get based package building, signing and distribution tools that the developers were already used to and substitute them with RPM which is ok in itself, but is not as robust in a system with multiple independent software delivery sources.
As a developer I got burned by Nokia with this change, so I will have to wait a year or two before I try to look at MeeGo platform seriously again.
"Nokia haven't released a decent high end consumer smartphone since the N95."
er, for me the N95 was the beginning of the end of Nokia's dominance, I'm afraid IMHO it was very far from decent, very! I had two of them, the quailty was appaling. I could list a LONG list of faults. But what really pushed me over the edge into vowing never to buy a Nokia again were the firmware updates, each one delivered more bugs than fixes, painful. The ShatNav, which at the time you had to pay for, was attrocious. On one occasion I could see the sliproad to the motorway I wanted to be on, and yet it was trying to send my along a B-road to nowhere....
@Mr w00t Nokia has unfortunately brought on the bashing themselves. They may have the most marketshare in phones but they certainly don't seem to be leaders - they appear lost at the helm, while the more modern "App Phone" market (iOS, Android) continues to grow all around them, actually bringing devs in, and building brand recognition and loyalty for brands like Apple/iOS and HTC, Motorola, and Android. Nokia has been putting out devices today's consumers and US carriers are finding uninspiring, I'm guessing primarily due to the OS they stick with - no devs compared to Android and iOS, even WebOS.
Nokia is floundering. Maybe they can hold it together and get back on course. But it just doesn't look good the way things are going.
@MaltedVomit I died of laughter when I read your comment.
While we're all aware that the last/current/pre-S^3 and MeeGo generation of phones has been substandard, I think these guys are going off on an unfair tangent in their Nokia bashing. Much of the writer's arguments stemmed from a criticism of the N97 (not an absolutely terrible phone, but should perhaps have been priced at some $400 less).
Yes, I do agree that Nokia became full of themselves and lost their drive for innovative thinking, allowing Android and iOS/OS X-based phones to move in. But that's what competition is all about. It is my opinion that the boys and girls over in Espoo (I've been reading way too much EngadgetMobile) are ready to step back into the ring and put up one hell of a fight.
Only some diehard Nokia fanboy would be in denial over Nokia's demise. The company is struggling terribly and investors are ready to revolt. The share price tells the whole story. That's something that fanboys never pay attention to. The flush has already begun and Nokia is now spinning around nearly ready to take a journey down to the sewer pipes. Even if they avoid going down, it'll take years for Nokia to recover and most investors will be long gone.
@MarkAnderson Actually if you read their full posts on the website (especially the lady's) you'd realize that the N8 and N900 would not really be able to solve a big part of the problem-there's virtually no developers for Symbian of apps people expect. I hadn't even realized this but the fact that there are ZERO medical apps available for Nokia's flagship phones right now is particularly pathetic considering that both Windows Mobile and even Palm OS still get up to date versions of Epocrates and Skyscape. Meanwhile if you own anything newer than an S60 you're apparently out of luck? Switching to Maemo and then Meego is not going to suddenly will into existence an entire world of applications-if they cultivate developers properly they might be able to retake the high end but as it is it's not really the hardware that's the problem-it's the whole ecosystem. Even if they fix the OS there's still a lot more that's broken, which is what their rants about Ovi and the app marketplaces on Symbian are about.
@hey buddy I agree... Nokia management has for long time been like an ostrich denying the fact that touch screen based phones and the app store model of business are credible.
You have not seen this here right? Of course not cos the role of Engadget is to trash Nokia.
Concerning the devices, I also think the devices were uninspiring until the N97, they tried to "remake" it by introducing the mini but the shite had already hit the fan. And please, dont take the USofA as basis for your argument. Nokia does not live from the US market and neither do all the other companies.
I think the opposite, that thing looks better now than before. Seems that they have finally understood they cant keep up producing that kind of N97 experience as if people were dumb enough to buy it. With Symbian3+MeeGo+Qt+Maps+Messaging+CWM they have the chance to leap frog everyone at once. If they cant... Well, then its better that they spend the rest of their days selling rubber boots.
"Actually if you read their full posts on the website (especially the lady's) you'd realize that the N8 and N900 would not really be able to solve a big part of the problem-there's virtually no developers for Symbian of apps people expect."
Rubbish. Symbian has the biggest dev community out of any mobile platform. That's what's laughable.
People go on about Pandora... except Pandora is US only where Nokia don't have a presence so that's actually down to it being pointless to make. As for medical apps? Seriously, that's a common requirement is it?
Of course if you want to use Epocrates you could access it through the web or use an e-book reader to read books.
@GreenLeaf, developers you say? Would you care to elaborate what has Apple done good for developers? One good thing? When they released the iPhone it wasn't even able to run native 3rd party applications, yet they called it a smartphone. It took a year of constant pressure for Apple to allow such travesty that has been available for Symbian since the early 2000s. And even then they've put a set of extremely draconian rules that makes every self-respecting developer feeling butt-hurt and half-raped. You can't publish your own app, and you can't make an app that Apple does not approve, and you are forced to work with limited APIs (no direct HW access), and even if you go by the book Apple can remove your app with no reason given, and...
Apart from the market share (which is due to some damn good marketing, not quality or developer-friendly environment), what's good for developers on the iOS platform? I, as a developer, wouldn't have touched it with a stick if I didn't have to. iOS is everything but developer friendly.
On the other hand, I can't think of more developer friendly mobile platform than Maemo/MeeGo - you are not restricted at all, you can make it do anything, and nobody can stop you to publish your app. Plus it uses architecture that's been around desktop platforms for almost two decades so most seasoned devs are familiar and comfortable with it.
HP has had plenty of time to fine-tune its finger-friendly TouchSmart software, and now, its newest model, the TouchSmart 610, ushers in a fresh design, highlighted by a hinge that allows the display to slide down and lie nearly flat.
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The truth hurts.
@Leindurstit
I don't get the constant nokia bashing.
Was a regular Sony Ericsson user for 4,5 years. then switched to nokia, my 5530 XM touch screen is pretty solid and has good enough features. I have used the iPhone 2nd hand, and i think its pretty close to it in terms of features and use.
Nokia might've been less innovative but its not all that bad. Al though i'd want to try out the new fruite phones
@Leindurstit
NOKIA - disConnecting People.
Chris Ziegler would have written this article himself, but he only had one hand free after hearing this.
"Losing hard."
That's what she said
@zepfloyd
Actually, that is more likely to happen with the iPhone 4 :P
What's Symbian?
I think Nokia still doesn't get it. In two years time only a couple of OS will be standing, just like in desktop space. Jobs missed the ball back then when all the developers went with Microsoft. We had attempts from sun, IBM, Linux community, but still only 2 OS have mentionable market share in desktop space as of now.
Now with mobiles, Jobs has learnt from his mistake and going after developers & marketing the app store big time. Lucky for Google, when they entered, win mobile was stagnant, Nokia/symbian was asleep. Android also got decent developers support. Just look at what happened to palm. You don't attract developers, you're toast, no matter how ridiculously good your OS is. Very soon developers will hit a saturation point. No more than 2 (iOS & Android) or at the max 3 (win mobile 7, depending entirely on Microsoft) will be supported.
When Nokia couldn't keep developers from going to other platforms even with having >50% marketshare with symbian, I don't think they can stop that with meego, where they are literally starting from scratch.
Nokia in 2012: Palm 2.0 Finnish edition!
@GreenLeaf
Nokia, an honest suggestion to you. Your competition is Motorola, Samsung, and HTC, and NOT Google or Apple (you dont have a passionate fanbase or atleast of the same degree). If you want to beat your competition, there is no other choice. You have to give a call to mountainview
@Leindurstit I adore my E71, but Nokia has disappointed me in the last couple of years, especially with regard to its software. Moving on up to Android now..
@Leindurstit
How is this news. Nokia announces not to use Symbian for its top line anymore. Symbian Guru stops. So what. Its time for MeeGo Guru anyway.
@GreenLeaf
Your theory would be fine if Nokia weren't maintaining a near 40% share in smartphones despite having no presence in the US, which is the fastest growing market.
So, no, you're not.
@GreenLeaf
It could've been done if the idiots bought palm instead HP got them..............amazon would make me feel better then HP.
@Leindurstit
It's a sad day indeed. The once powerful nokia is falling. The saddest fact of all is that they had the lead concerning 'smart' OSs with symbian and early maemo. However, rather than cultivating an already thriving platform or exercising vision, they've since gone back to the drawing board more than 4 times developing OS variants (the various maemo projects, and now MeeGo)! It's no wonder they haven't gained any traction as they're starting from scratch repeatedly (and alienating developers), rather than building on something that works.
I don't see MeeGo going anywhere of importance, as trying to convince developers to use QT, given nokia's platform history will likely be an uphill battle. What does MeeGo offer that Android doesn't?
As an outsider, I would guess that Nokia should to release an android device and look for ways to differentiate itself from other players in this space, or contributing to the source.
@GreenLeaf Palm OS supported developers to the best of their ability. Palm was just tiny compared to Apple and Google. That and the pixi being very underpowered.
@Leindurstit
The truth is, NO ONE does low to mid-end handsets like Nokia.When Microsoft came up with the Kin whatevers, some here suggested Nokia would finally lose that dominance. HA!
The upcoming strategy of pushing Symbian to low and mid end will only solidify Nokia's trade. They're just too good value, buck for buck. An 80 pound Nokia touchscreen SMARTphone offers free offline satnav, true multitasking, web browser with flash, file downloading, BT file sharing, and so much more all out of the box.
I think some people are getting a bit overly dramatic here.
If we step outside for a moment, we can see that 90% of the people don't give a rats ass about what OS is running on their phone. We Engadget readers are a niche in the market.
So Nokia still has 90% of the population to sell phones to, with whatever OS they want.
What I'm trying to say is that Nokia is far from extinct.
But I'm not trying to defend them, either. In fact -from a user's perspective- I'm very critical of both Nokia and the Symbian OS.
@MarkAnderson
It would be intresting to see how long that market share last.
@Leindurstit
In a way it's at least partially true. Nokia haven't released a decent high end consumer smartphone since the N95. Sure, the N86 is pretty good but it's a throwback. The N96 and the N97 were just horrible.
But here's the thing. This guy is whining about the N97. A phone that is a year old. He's not even tried the N8 prototypes as far as I can see and he's thrown a hissy fit. This guy is supposed to be a guru and he's had no meaningful exposure to S^3? Please.
And worse, the gadget sites are blowing this up as if it's a big thing. In fairness Engadget haven't been as stupid as, say, T3 who claim he's Symbian's most important supporter when obviously that's AAS and Symbian Freak. This guy is minor league, small potatoes who doesn't even merit an invite to the N8's pre releases.
Yeah. You're leaving. No-one cares.
Which doesn't mean that Nokia haven't wallowed in a mess of their own making for three years because they have as far as the high end goes. The only redeeming factor is the total dominance of the emerging low to middle tier market (good luck breaking into that one Android cos you're going to need it).
Will the N8 change things? Maybe a bit. Not in the US obviously - that's iPhone/Android country - but perhaps in the US and Asia where it could stop the rot. Me, I'm a bit of a Nokia fan so I'm actually going to give the N8 a go because that seems the right thing to do. If it sucks then I'll look elsewhere. What I won't do is post a long rant on the internet about a year old phone when I didn't have the patience to even try the new version of Symbian and look like a whiny little bitch as a result.
@realar
Considering that the iPhone has made zero impact on it and Android less over the last three quarters I'd say a a pretty long time.
@MarkAnderson
Europe not the US.
D'oh!
I'm somewhat surprised at the timing of this. Did it really take this long to sink in that the N97 was not what it should've been. That's ancient history and now, as the new Symbian 3 phones are almost here and Qt is going to consolidate app development on Nokia's all platforms, they decide to call it quits.
The claims they make about N8 (not enough memory, not enough power) are questionable (new OS, WDP, GPU). I guess they got tired of getting ignored by Nokia. It hurts if you set up a fansite in high hopes and still have to buy your own phones.
@Abbas64
Well, as the saying goes, Nokia will be crying all the way to the bank. I'm just surprised that this got a post, kind of makes me question Nilay Patels motives. I'm sure there has been more than one little known blog from each and every phone-maker that have shut down, yet I've never seen a post about it. Now when one minor Nokia blog shuts down, not only does it get a post, but also gets a nice write-up of the reasons why the bloggers thinks Nokia sucks.
As for the blog itself, my do they sound disgruntled. Such harsh reactions after a couple of bad touch-screen devices, while the rest of the line-up remains as solid as ever. Maybe someone at Nokia pissed them off.
@GreenLeaf
i am not going to write off Nokia that easy.
The one thing Nokia needs right now is a good marketing division! They have all the features that other phones have and then some. Yet they don't know how to market it to people.
We tech fans know of the N8's features: the great sensor size, USB OTG, HDMI out, etc. But can Nokia get this message through to people that will finally be buying this phone? and can they do it in a way that will make them want the phone?
A monotonous product manager isn't the answer when you want to present the features to a wider audience. Just listing them one by one isn't the answer either. A geek will see "HDMI out", "USB OTG", "Qt apps" and say, "wow now this is something good". Does nokia expect an average buyer to understand any of it?
I hate Apple for all the hyped up marketing, but Nokia will do well to take a leaf out of Jobs's keynotes and see how to present features to the consumer.
@GreenLeaf :
So basically, what you're syaing is...
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
DEVELOPERS!
@MarkAnderson Anyone can get that big a marketshare when your phones are free and the plans are nice.
@nutbunnies
And hardly anyone else has the scale to do that.
P.S. They got that share selling a range of free phones and premiums phones - the N95 cost £150 with contract on release in 2007 - so you're wrong anyway.
@Leindurstit Engadget just loves this right?
They are trumpeting this as the next big thing... I can imagine a bunch of iGeeks all huddled together machinating what bad they will say about Nokia next.
And it could have not come in a better time since Apple F-up iPhone 4. A small distraction.
It is true Nokia messed up BIG TIME with the N97. But it is also true that Nokia stated that, released multiple firmware updates and finally created something usable out of that thing. Some companies, yes Google and Apple, dont even do this. Google stopped trying to fix the reception issues Nexus One has and Apple, what a joke, the CEO of the company is telling the users to handle the phone in a different way. Plus all the other problems associated by it.
But finally we come to the only valid point of the ranting of some bloggers, yeah, bloggers in a pejorative way because in the end thats what you all are. Nokia need developers. They have gained some traction with the latest devices,N900/N8, acquiring Trolltech and cuddling with Intel. Is it enough? No. But it is a start.
Someone mentioned Palm. Nokia is not a Palm. First of all, Nokia has far more patents, second Nokia is (still) sitting on a huge pile of cash, third besides patents Nokia has other assets in case sh1t hits the fan.
What I find odd is a site that should be reporting news, I get it you are just bloggers, can be cheering so much for Nokia's demise. What has Nokia done to Engadget? Do the phones suck? Do you hate europeans? I know that you guys compared S60 to syphilis and so on. But what is the deal with that?
If Nokia is stupid is in one thing is actually driving traffic for this site. If I would be involved with PR, first thing I would do is totally isolate you guys. Second I would actually take the next step and ridiculle you, just how Nokia did with Eldar and Apple with Gizmodo. You guys are untouched. For now.
In the end I think that Nokia has a better chance to stiring the boat around than Palm/Motorola, it is even stupid the comparison. Nokia will stay here, doing handsets, laptops or whatever it still does.
Cant say the same about the bloggers of this site.
@Elranzer
yep... do you think Google gives away phones at its I/O for free just for fun. It's because they understand the game. Just watch how aggressive Balmer will be with win mobile 7, afterall we are talking about DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS!
@stewie325 True - all those things come with their mid-range phones on s60. It's still slightly less difficult to lobotomize yourself through your left nostril with a shrimp fork than use them all effectively though.
I'm caught between gigs and gigs of 15 dollar ATT data on a capable but obtuse $250 s60 phone vs. 10 dollars a month more for a potentially capable Aria that Engadget Chris recommended not to buy. My brain hurts. Must be that failed lobotomy attempt.
@Leindurstit
Has anybody heard of symbian-guru before this?
A way to get some publicity is my guess, for their other sites.
@Mr w00t I fear your well written response will fall on deaf ears here at iEngadget.
@Discourse No, they read :)
They pretend that we dont exist but they do read...
When us trolls, I mean, reader started to "get out of control" and rightfully ,if I may say, "accusing" Engadget of being the Fox News if the tech blogs and having a hidden agenda,ouch this comment will be deleted like the other ones I said the same thing, against Nokia. Engadget "editors" quickly realized they needed to calm us down, ala China.
And again, if they would have any credibility in what they report and base it with facts they would not delete our comments (unless of course we would curse/threat/perjury/etc).
And Nilay almost could not contain his excitement in telling everyone to visit symbian-guru website. This behavior border the ridiculous.
Nokia: Something both Apple and Google fanboys can bash together in harmony.
@boxieblue so true!!! http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1187/1277149979_831c0b4604.jpg
@boxieblue
Nokia can definitely use some marketing. When you have a generation of people growing up and they see a Nokia device and think it's a knock-off product, there's a problem.....
But MeeGo.....
MeeGo can be a "freakin-epic-huge" game changer for Nokia. They just need to get the freakin' word out and get the devices rollin'! MeeGo is hot, the general masses don't know it exists, I'm sure of that.
@JonE
+1. Strange indeed.
@SamTatr
You tried to hard
(that's what I said)
Nokia did hand out a bunch of N900's to developers at a few conferences.
What Nokia really failed with was not as much the N97, but rather the transition from Maemo to MeeGo. Some say MeeGo is a step forward. i say the body stepped forward while the head and a few vital organs were teleported a meter sideways.
MeeGo abandons N900 barely a year after the phones release, it switched to a completely new API and base layer that is being developed behind closed doors, they abandoned the Debian+Apt-Get based package building, signing and distribution tools that the developers were already used to and substitute them with RPM which is ok in itself, but is not as robust in a system with multiple independent software delivery sources.
As a developer I got burned by Nokia with this change, so I will have to wait a year or two before I try to look at MeeGo platform seriously again.
@Hmm Yeah, that's one of those patents that Nokia claims Apple is jumping on!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amPG52DVQuk
@MarkAnderson
Mr Anderson...
"Nokia haven't released a decent high end consumer smartphone since the N95."
er, for me the N95 was the beginning of the end of Nokia's dominance, I'm afraid IMHO it was very far from decent, very! I had two of them, the quailty was appaling. I could list a LONG list of faults. But what really pushed me over the edge into vowing never to buy a Nokia again were the firmware updates, each one delivered more bugs than fixes, painful. The ShatNav, which at the time you had to pay for, was attrocious. On one occasion I could see the sliproad to the motorway I wanted to be on, and yet it was trying to send my along a B-road to nowhere....
@zepfloyd
Totally disconnecting people... oh ... hang on a second.
They're one of the largest producers of the cell tower equipment.
Guess they actually are connecting people.
@stewie325
lol
no seriously
@Mr w00t Nokia has unfortunately brought on the bashing themselves. They may have the most marketshare in phones but they certainly don't seem to be leaders - they appear lost at the helm, while the more modern "App Phone" market (iOS, Android) continues to grow all around them, actually bringing devs in, and building brand recognition and loyalty for brands like Apple/iOS and HTC, Motorola, and Android. Nokia has been putting out devices today's consumers and US carriers are finding uninspiring, I'm guessing primarily due to the OS they stick with - no devs compared to Android and iOS, even WebOS.
Nokia is floundering. Maybe they can hold it together and get back on course. But it just doesn't look good the way things are going.
@MaltedVomit I died of laughter when I read your comment.
While we're all aware that the last/current/pre-S^3 and MeeGo generation of phones has been substandard, I think these guys are going off on an unfair tangent in their Nokia bashing. Much of the writer's arguments stemmed from a criticism of the N97 (not an absolutely terrible phone, but should perhaps have been priced at some $400 less).
Yes, I do agree that Nokia became full of themselves and lost their drive for innovative thinking, allowing Android and iOS/OS X-based phones to move in. But that's what competition is all about. It is my opinion that the boys and girls over in Espoo (I've been reading way too much EngadgetMobile) are ready to step back into the ring and put up one hell of a fight.
Close your mouth and have faith, SG.
@Leindurstit
Only some diehard Nokia fanboy would be in denial over Nokia's demise. The company is struggling terribly and investors are ready to revolt. The share price tells the whole story. That's something that fanboys never pay attention to. The flush has already begun and Nokia is now spinning around nearly ready to take a journey down to the sewer pipes. Even if they avoid going down, it'll take years for Nokia to recover and most investors will be long gone.
@MarkAnderson Actually if you read their full posts on the website (especially the lady's) you'd realize that the N8 and N900 would not really be able to solve a big part of the problem-there's virtually no developers for Symbian of apps people expect. I hadn't even realized this but the fact that there are ZERO medical apps available for Nokia's flagship phones right now is particularly pathetic considering that both Windows Mobile and even Palm OS still get up to date versions of Epocrates and Skyscape. Meanwhile if you own anything newer than an S60 you're apparently out of luck? Switching to Maemo and then Meego is not going to suddenly will into existence an entire world of applications-if they cultivate developers properly they might be able to retake the high end but as it is it's not really the hardware that's the problem-it's the whole ecosystem. Even if they fix the OS there's still a lot more that's broken, which is what their rants about Ovi and the app marketplaces on Symbian are about.
@hey buddy I agree...
Nokia management has for long time been like an ostrich denying the fact that touch screen based phones and the app store model of business are credible.
But they have woken up:
http://top10.com/mobilephones/news/2010/05/ovi_store_growth_continues/
You have not seen this here right? Of course not cos the role of Engadget is to trash Nokia.
Concerning the devices, I also think the devices were uninspiring until the N97, they tried to "remake" it by introducing the mini but the shite had already hit the fan. And please, dont take the USofA as basis for your argument. Nokia does not live from the US market and neither do all the other companies.
I think the opposite, that thing looks better now than before. Seems that they have finally understood they cant keep up producing that kind of N97 experience as if people were dumb enough to buy it. With Symbian3+MeeGo+Qt+Maps+Messaging+CWM they have the chance to leap frog everyone at once. If they cant... Well, then its better that they spend the rest of their days selling rubber boots.
And, BTW, WebOS has Nokia hands on it too.
@tekdemon
"Actually if you read their full posts on the website (especially the lady's) you'd realize that the N8 and N900 would not really be able to solve a big part of the problem-there's virtually no developers for Symbian of apps people expect."
Rubbish. Symbian has the biggest dev community out of any mobile platform. That's what's laughable.
People go on about Pandora... except Pandora is US only where Nokia don't have a presence so that's actually down to it being pointless to make. As for medical apps? Seriously, that's a common requirement is it?
Of course if you want to use Epocrates you could access it through the web or use an e-book reader to read books.
@GreenLeaf, developers you say? Would you care to elaborate what has Apple done good for developers? One good thing? When they released the iPhone it wasn't even able to run native 3rd party applications, yet they called it a smartphone. It took a year of constant pressure for Apple to allow such travesty that has been available for Symbian since the early 2000s. And even then they've put a set of extremely draconian rules that makes every self-respecting developer feeling butt-hurt and half-raped. You can't publish your own app, and you can't make an app that Apple does not approve, and you are forced to work with limited APIs (no direct HW access), and even if you go by the book Apple can remove your app with no reason given, and...
Apart from the market share (which is due to some damn good marketing, not quality or developer-friendly environment), what's good for developers on the iOS platform? I, as a developer, wouldn't have touched it with a stick if I didn't have to. iOS is everything but developer friendly.
On the other hand, I can't think of more developer friendly mobile platform than Maemo/MeeGo - you are not restricted at all, you can make it do anything, and nobody can stop you to publish your app. Plus it uses architecture that's been around desktop platforms for almost two decades so most seasoned devs are familiar and comfortable with it.